madlithuanian

Seriously!

The only thing we disagreed on here really was the idea of thinking somehow Toub would be a great choice as OC. I've never had issue with him being considered for the role of HC. Also, no issue with considering Fangio...or Donnatel. OR even Loggains. We don't know what's really happening in the secret rooms. Is Fox kiboshing everything? Is Loggains brilliant and won't be allowed to do anything? We just don't really know for certain. Based on comments from Tru...inadvertently he intimates Fox ain't letting them do much. I'm not even convinced Fangio is brilliant either. A good friend from SF swears he's only as good as his players. Who knows... The only thing I wish they would do is bounce Fox now, promote Fangio to HC and Donnatel to DC. Let Fangio decide what Loggains could do. And let it ride. Watching the lame duck is kind of pointless. To me, it's another mark on Pace. But, it's not damning. It's unfortunate. That said... Have a Happy Thanksgiving!

Alaska, if you were in LA, I could recommend a good shrink that'll help you get over the firing of Lovie Smith... It's time to move on. I'm not sure where you question my credibility? Am I a professional football writer? No, I'm a guy on a fan board with a little more knowledge than average...n a good day at that. Honestly, as fans, what can we do when the team hires people? 2 options: support it or poo poo it. I hoped for the best w/ Trestman and Cutler. Yup, failed. I hoped for the best with Fox, made some progress, but ultimately needs to end. Fox is playing out a bit how I suspected. He'd be the guy to get us of the schnide...to gain some respectability, to grow the defense. He's pretty much done that. Thank you Doug Collins...I now want Phil Jackson to take over. Yeah, not sure if you caught my gambling analogy, but the idea to get risky is when you have nothing to lose. Like when we were putrid. Now that we are not putrid with a barren cupboard of talent and now that cupboard is getting filled...it's not time to go wacky. In finance, a guy about to retire doesn't put his entire 401K into sketchy overseas investments. He goes conservative. Now is not the time to go wacky. I have no map. I am not good enough of an evaluator of pro coaching to pick our coaches. And that's a different thread. This was about forcing a square peg of STC into a round hole of OC. My thoughts of HC, OC, etc are looking at hoping Sean Payton walks from NO or cherry pick one of the OC minds from Philly. Or even give McDaniels a look to see if he's matured. I'm really talking HC here. I don't mind Toub in the conversation because I think he could be a very good CEO of the coaching staff. But, he'd need a great OC in w/ him and more often than not, those guys eventually bolt for a HC gig later. Which is why I'd prefer an offensive mind to lead our team. But, it's Pace's call. I'll support what he chooses until it looks like a fail. That's been my M.O. the entire time. You weren't around (and nor was I on this board) when Smith was first hired and I was all in. For quite a long time at that. You just got to know my ugly mug after Smith was on the decline, etc. For 2 years Billicheck was all over the map when he first got into NFL coaching...O, ST...then in year 3 he started getting involved on D as a D assistant. From then out, he specialized and got his knowledge on D. (virtually from 1978 to 2000 barring the few years in Cleveland as HC) Eventually moving up to DC and then HC. He didn't start as an OC, became one of the best in the league, then switch to D, then go HC. Billichick's time as a receivers coach and work on ST for those first few formative years pales by comparison of what Toub has been as a STC for virtually the last 17 years. Billicheck was a D guru who became a successful HC. He didn't become an OC, then a HC after being a defensive guru for over a decade. Over the years, he's learned those offensive elements, but ultimately, he's had OC's to do the job. He just picks good ones and also got really lucky landing Tom Brady.

Could be maybe Toub sucks at anything other than being a STC? Honestly, I am suggesting nothing other than Toub as OC is ridiculous... That is the argument here. Just because we hire poorly in the past doesn't mean we didn't hire positionally correctly. We needed a DC. We hired Tucker. He was the wrong DC to hire. The dislike is it is just so silly of an idea. Here we are on the precipice of a legit turnaround. A potential franchise QB, and up and coming D...etc. Now is the time to do what smart football minds do. Hire the correct man for the correct job. Hire offensive minds to coach offense, Hire defensive minds to coach defense, Hire special teams minds to coach special teams. HC is the wild card. I would prefer an offensive mind. Because it could prove to be the foundation for Tru. A great OC could leave for a HC next season. At least w/ an offensive mind in charge, Tru can have some more stability. Could it be a DC or STC too? Absolutely, If Pace feels he's got the guy (see Billicheck)...then do it. His career is tied to Tru and who he hires next as HC. The one thing I'm 100% certain of is that Pace won't hire Toub as OC. Or allow his HC to do so. That is just asinine. You maybe do that when you've got nothing to lose. If you've just piled up $10K in Vegas on roulette, you don't place the lot on green. You maybe choose red or black. It's still a gamble whoever you hire, but getting an offensive mind simply increases your chance of something good than pining away for a STC to somehow change careers over an off-season and be brilliant at something else. We have too much to lose. This isn't the paltry years of jabroni QBs. We could legitimately have something here. That is why I stand against silliness here. Don't get tricky at the goal line with an inch and run some triple reverse with a flea flicker. Run Howard in for the TD...

Ha! There goes my job as editor-in-chief...

Fair enough. Maybe it isn't quite a contradiction according the Hoyle. But it's a Catch 22. There is no evidence in either direction. Regardless, your argument on "possibility" is illogical. It's a fools errand to argue just for argument's sake. I'm trying to live in some semblance of reality. I commend your constitution for digging your heels in, but nor am I backing down from calling your STC to OC statement as nothing more than fantasy BS. I get you're upset with the trash we've dealt with n the past, and sometimes going outside the box can bring some positive results. More than likely it doesn't. And if I remember correctly, Money Ball didn't bring the A's a Series Championship... All that said, your last line, bolded, might be the closest thing you will ever say admitting you are wrong. I'll take it.

Alaska is not a dummy. He's just confusing the idea of "possible". It's possible under the laws of physics to happen. It just has no remote chance of being so. It's the same as if a shoe salesmen were to be promoted to OC. Maybe he's Good Will Hunting OC. But, we all know he won't be... I think that's where jason and Alaska are failed here. That they argue it's possible. The issue is it's not remotely probable. ...and they are digging their heels in so hard to try to be right it's comical.

You've just contradicted yourself. We aren't arguing the idea of the realm of possibility. Sure, it is possible given the laws of physics that Toub could be promoted to OC, run the most prolific offense known to man and beast, result in a stream of SB wins unrivaled by none... But... The odds of that happening are so slim it's un-calculatable even by Neil DeGrasse. Jason, I know you are a very sharp person and astute fan of football. Please, see that your logic is utterly completely flawed here. This argument is not over OC's becoming HC's and going back down. It's about the idea that a STC would get a promotion to OC tutoring the most important person we have on our team with virtually no experience doing so. Not only won't it happen. It shouldn't.

Agreed. He's got his fair share of blunders... I'd like to still think his positives are outweighing his negatives. We will see.

Maybe he can discover the cure for cancer while he's at it too! You know, cause we can't prove that he can't...

re: item 2... You can't prove a negative... Nor on the list does it prove you can't go from being a cheerleading or tiddlywinks coach to being an OC...

All rejoice!

Agreed as well...

Maybe get a player that can shoot 3's? Even better. Why don't we hire a HC with solid OC/QB development experience that's not so outside the box (ie. Trestman)? That way, no matter who we get as OC when the powers that be decide that he get a HC gig himself, we don't lose the overall focus on Tru? As much as I'd like Toub. I think the logical move to to bring in an offensive mind that can steer our QB throughout the run w/o having to worry if everything will change as the next OC leaves for a better gig later. Who that is, I don't know. Pace gets paid the big bucks. He will get his chance. I hope he chooses wisely. If he botches it, he's gone too...

Thank you for your logic Chitownhustla!

Whatever you and Alsaka are smoking, I'd trademark it, because you'll make billions! Saying that the piles of rubbish we had over the years were worse than Toub. OK. I'll buy. But damn. If the only OC candidate we can find to teach Tru is Toub, it is seriously f'ed up. It's funny to say the junk we've had is awful, etc...but no way on God's green earth is Toub being hired by any NFL team to be an OC...

Fantasy. Pure fun with no attachment to what really happens. But in fact, last time I played Madden, you could only make coordinators HC's. You couldn't change their coordinator slot from ST to O or D or in any combination. The biggest Q of success is the ability to actually hold the position. Toub will never be an OC, therefore, he would have more success as a HC. Even, with that said, ST commands a group of people, organizes efforts and looks at both sides of the ball to encompass his club. Other ST coaches, like Ditka and Harbaugh have made the transition successfully. This argument isn't whether Fangio could be a HC, he can. Fangio just would not be an OC. Neither will Toub. Your speculation of hiring Toub as an OC is in the same realm of me thinking of having a fling with a Victoria Secret model. Pure unadulterated fantasy with no correlation to the real world.

?

Good stuff...

Yup. Maybe add... 8. Shaheen show serious positive signs. Could be building something here...

Right there w/ you guys. I think as HC...

Really? Toub is a ST coach. ie. Not an offensive coach. I get it, you like Toub. I do too. As HC. Honestly thinking he could be an OC is literally Madden PS4 talk...it is not reality. Not remotely.

You don't hire a heart specialist to perform brain surgery. You hire a brain surgeon. However, either of those 2 doctors can become the lead doctor in the hospital...

Just one of many reasons to send Fox away...