BearFan PHX

unless they are all in on Williams and want to run the same type of offense that would work with Fields. But for me, yes, I want to see a QB who can make reads and execute the offense in rhythm. And then whatever other skills they have are an added bonus that gets you a first down or two on every drive.

I think Poles listens to my comments the most LOLOL

Its a good point. I think you need a mix of both. As you build the roster you need a bunch of decent players, but then you also need those few difference makers. At the beginning, trading down makes all the sense in the world. You have nothing, and bringing in a single blue chipper (if you can even get that right!) will just result in that blue chipper having no one around him to work with. Later, as your depth fills out, you need those few difference makers, and even though the risk is great, eventually you need a QB who is one of the best in the league. Without that, it's almost impossible with the current rules to reliably contend for a Super Bowl Championship. You might luck into an appearance, like Lovie did, but even with Hesters 7 point handicap returning the opening kick for a TD, we still had no chance of beating Payton Manning through the rest of the 59 minutes. I think we are getting near to the point where it's time to get that blue chip player. The Draft haul available by trading the #1 pick will be substantial. Maybe we will split the difference and just trade down a few spots and take a QB at #3 or #4 or something. Next year for sure we will be in blue chip territory, and if it's gonna be a QB, we can give him this year to learn. But I definitely see the logic of what you're saying Jason, and I agree with you about building the lines too - it's kind of a related argument, and it makes sense. But I also think at some point you need that world beating QB, and as difficult as that is to find with a top pick, it's even more difficult when youre stuck at 9-8 every year, too good to have a top pick, and too bad to actually contend? this is what Im saying too, and as usual I needed too many more words to say the same thing LOL

If Cunningham stays another year, maybe thats good, so he can help with QB decisions.

Oh man it couldn't be said better. That is 100% it. yeah it really feels that way For all his issues, Justin Fields has never given less than all he has, and never had crap like this. And speaking of, how about Jameis Winston making a unilateral decision to score against the Falcons on what was called by the coach to be a kneel down? I think with NIL and egos running wild we will see more of this lack of discipline in some of the players in the draft. I can see there being bad boy teams like the Raiders once were, and teams that have more discipline. It will be interesting to watch them compete too. Sometimes that attitude comes from being really good, and we all remember a certain punky QB that won us a Superbowl. There will be bad boy heroes and villains. But Justin has never been like that, and I would prefer smart, disciplined excellent QBs in the future to a headcase every time.

and if he has to pay Justin, then he presumably traded the #1 pick down and got more high picks, so hed have more impact players on rookie deals at other positions to balance out some of the extra money to Fields? Is that a wash or how one sided is it?

LOL everything is the best or the worst. Every player and coach is loved or hated. Not much nuance at all out there.

I havent done my homework yet, but right now, Im out on Caleb. I agree he is short, and his mystique is not gonna last through the combine - I bet he will only throw at his own pro day etc. His ego is too big, and i cant wait to see him get hammered in the NFL. Where Justin is easy to root for personally, Caleb is not. But all that aside, who is the gem QB in this years draft? Is there one? Can they be identified? I thought it might be Penix, but after the National Championship game, Im looking at Daniels. And I have never given Maye a fair shake at all.

LOL

They may be looking to fix Justin, and they may be looking to ease fears of a rookie (Williams) coming into the situation, since we kept Eberflus. The same guy (whoever that is) probably fits both bills. In keeping the OL coach, the incoming guy will almost certainly be a passing specialist. I hate that Williams has made noises like he might choose not to play for a team that drafts him, and all the other silliness. If he isn't a Bear, I am really going to enjoy hating him for his career. I will like him less than Rodgers. If he is a Bear, and plays well for us, I will love him like and elderly rich wife I married for her money LOL

I don't have faith in their morality - I have faith that they want to win and make money at any cost. That they are greedy and self interested. To call it faith as if i think they are good and interested in moral decisions is very different from what I said in my post. It's a semantic trick on the word "faith in" I totally agree with you that I dont have faith in them to choose right over profit. My point was the total opposite of that? I think there are levels to this. Level 1 is overt conscious racism i.e. explicit racism. That would mean an owner or GM knew that a minority candidate was better but refused to hire them because they are black or asian or whatever. That makes no sense to me, but if I am naive and such creatures do exist in the NFL, I cant believe theyd hire the guy for the extra 3rd rounders, if they are that hateful. Level 2, is more likely, that would be unconscious bias where the decision maker doesnt realize they are racist, but are seeing people wrongly because of implicit bias. that's implicit racism. In that case i still dont think 2 3rd rounders would make the difference - who is gonna hire someone they (wrongly) think is less able for a couple 3rd rounders? This is why Id favor a Rooney rule for GMs and assistant GMs instead, it puts qualified minority candidates in meetings with decision makers so their ability and personal energy can win the room. Level 3 is where the decision maker has no bias, and chooses a minority candidate who is equally qualified as other candidates just to get the picks. That's no racism. And if the rule exists, this is what I hope the Bears will do. But what it means is that you didnt overcome a racist (explicit or implicit) decision maker, you just increased minority representation. i think this is illegal, although Im sure no politician or prosecutor wants to touch that issue. But the white guy thats getting passed over, he isn't benefitting because some other white guy has a job? And you havent changed anything because this decision maker in this scenario isnt level 1 or 2 anyway? At any rate, I have no doubt that minority representation in GMs will increase with or without these rules, because there are a lot of well connected, football experienced minority people in the pipeline who will get jobs on merit alone. All it really does is perhaps cheapen their personal accomplishment by adding the question of whether they personally would have still gotten the job if they were white? Im saying lots would still get the job, and didnt need the rule. But like I said, a Rooney rule for GMs and assistant GMs would be welcome. Nothing at all wrong with that in my eyes.

So far I think Poles has done an excellent job. He tore down the bloated roster. Took the heat for having an inept 2022 season, built a large part of the supporting roster out while maintaining discipline, not overspending or overreaching. All excellent. But Poles is at an inflection point now. All of what he's done so far was reasonably obvious strategically, even as it required a deft hand in execution and choices. He did well. But now the big decisions come. Coaches and QB. he will be remembered for what he does going forward from here, more than for trading Roquan, or giving Fields last year to prove himself. In my mind, he's already stumbled on the coaching decision. For sure it can be mitigated with successful coordinator hires. But up until the Eberflus decision, I would be giving Poles an A+. But all those things, difficult as they were, are small compared to this upcoming round of decisions. Who will be the Bears Head Coach and Starting QB in 2025 and 2026? How many wins will we have in those seasons? The answers to those questions will be the yardstick by which Poles will be measured, and if he gets them right, the 2024 season will probably be bright and full of hope. But if he gets the wrong, he squanders everything else he's done. So this is new territory for Poles. The training wheels are off, and the big tough decisions lie ahead. Who of us can say what Caleb Williams will be? I sure cant. No one can. But Poles will get a raise or be fired if he cant answer that (unanswerable!) question, and the related ones correctly. To me, keeping Eberflus was the first mistake. So let's see how this goes from here. It's a lot of pressure, and to be fair, it's almost impossible to know what the rookies will be. But we kinda know who Fields is. If he gets the 5th year extension for example, that's would be a giant bet for Poles.

I agree with everything you've both said until that last line. Owners can be trusted to be greedy and work in self interest. People can certainly be ignorant, and maybe their race filter makes them wrongly not see minority talent in front of them, but there is no way any NFL team would pick a less qualified white guy because hes white. These guys would sell their own mothers for an extra win a year. The Rooney rule is great because it puts candidates in front of decision makers, and that helps ease the first problem I mentioned above. If youre unconsciously blind to something for example, that really helps. But this new rule where you get 2 x 3rd round picks for hiring a minority assistant GM who is then hired away seems wrong to me. In my view it's not necessary, again, because these guys want the best talent, and wont consciously let race get in their way to having the best people. What it does instead, is incentivize hiring someone who may be less qualified in order to get those picks. If two candidates are equally qualified it gives an edge to the minority hire - not even sure I love that. Seems illegal. A Rooney rule for GM and assistant GM hiring would be preferable in my view. Of course, I'm all for minority people in the NFL. That seems almost a silly thing to say out loud since so many players are not white, and former players make up a good part of the pool from which future leadership positions are drawn. This isn't 1940s basketball for example. Let me also say that the NFL was not always color blind. No one can say that in the 70s or beyond that there wasn't a stigma around black QBs for example. That was a real shame too. It was stupid. And racist. But we got past it just by our culture evolving and the hyper competitive nature of winning in the NFL. And we didnt have to give free draft picks to teams to do it either. Pure greed for wins overcomes everything else, as it should be. But as long as there are free draft picks available, I expect teams to want them. Given multiple candidates that are all equally qualified, I hope the Bears use this rule and get more picks. But I think the rule isn't helping as much as intended. It will make people wonder whether the guy that got hired really was the best for the job, or if they got hired for the picks - and I think that does more damage to the NFL group-think about the value of minority GMs than it helps. What will really help things continue to change are Super Bowl winning GMs of all colors. And rule or no rule, that is going to happen either way. I should also add that by all accounts Ian Cunningham did an exceptional job for us, and is being considered for GM positions because he was not simply qualified, but one of the best (if not the best) assistant GM in the league. To the point where I have wondered to myself whether if Poles retains Eberflus AND FIelds, and fumbles the coordinator jobs, that I might not consider calling for Poles to be fired, and replaced by Cunningham!

for sure on keeping Justin last year - it would have been stupid not to. we needed to see who he was, how he could grow. you cant just walk away from that kind of athletic talent without at least seeing him with something around him. Now this year, thats a different story. But who is the right rookie? Who the heck knows. Maybe the best one this year will end up to be Mccarthy in the second round, or maybe its Williams at #1 etc. My crystal ball is entirely cloudy.

I completely agree. I think Poles did the right thing. My comment was just that his answer now was a little slick because he is saying he'd rather have had a haul that includes this years number one, which he didnt know would be #1, and passing on Stroud which time may tell (in hindsight) was a miss. If he'd said it was the right decision at the time, Im 100% agreed. But if he'd known this would be a #1 pick, then hed have known Stroud would be this good too. ANd again, Im not even saying Stroud is gonna be great either. It was just a little slick, giving himself credit for something he couldnt have known, and a pass on something else he couldnt have known either. But for example, every team that didnt draft Brady in the first 5 rounds could easily and rightly say "at the time, it was the right decision" who could argue that? Not even the Patriots who passed on him through 5 rounds. But to look back now and say "Im still happy with the 5th round pick I took back then rather than taking Brady" is a less sustainable statement. But again, to be clear, I think Poles did exactly the right thing last year, I was just commenting on the statement being a little slick. In general these discussion seem to feel like you love someone or you hate them, and iw as just injecting a tiny bit of nuance. Nothing important, and nothing that changes my opinion of Poles. Keeping Eberflus on the other hand, and what he does with Justin are different issues, but this statement? Just a little too slick - not even a 5 yard penalty tho. But hypothetically, if in two years Stroud is the best QB in the league, then no one could say theyd rather have that haul including Moore etc. In that case, the right answer is the QB. Again, no one could know at the time, nor could they know the CAR pick would be the #1 pick either.

read again where I said "And it's not like you could see it coming either." Also Poles' statement was made now when we all have hindsight including Poles making the statement. For example, he includes the #1 overall pick this year, also not knowable last year. This is Poles this year, talking about what we now know. And my point was about the quarterback position in general, you dont have to protect Poles' feelings from me. I think it's just best for you not to comment on my posts since you seem to misunderstand them constantly.

I agree with all of this too. Since there is luck involved, if you have Trubisky and Mahomes rated similarly, you let the one that falls to you be your pick You need to really have conviction to trade up, and with Trubisky how could they have with the limited sample size? We tend to think these professionals have some secret sauce that we are missing, and to be sure they have TONS of data we dont have, but in the end, that data doesnt seem to be cutting through the fog. Wouldnt it be refreshing for them to admit that it is unknowable and value where to pick a position on that from a tier of players? Or maybe it makes sense, in addition to your regular addressing of QBs with high picks when the position is open, to also take a flyer on a 6th or 7th round QB every other year? Or every year? I'm still wondering what Bagent can do too.

sure, and hes not gonna say anything "true" in this predraft period either. Im just saying, more good players is good, but a GOAT QB is everything. Im not really criticizing Poles as much as making the point about the QB. And if it means he is thinking of trading down again, it's a similar thought from me. Of course all that hinges on there being a Tom Brady int he draft, and there almost never is. But then again, you never know who they are until you already have them, or have passed on them. Im not saying it's easy. its about as difficult as anything is.

Moore, Wright, Stevenson and this years #1 and the 2025 pick is a serious haul. It's the kind of thing that builds rosters. But this league is all about QBs. Not that there are dominant GOATs easily found. But if you knew you had Joe Montana, or Tom Brady, or Payton Manning, they would easily be worth more than 3 firsts. Youd pay almost anything to get one. And they'd be worth the price. Now maybe hes saying that Stroud isnt one of those QBs, and probably he;d be right. But given that Stroud did what he did in his first year, no one can say for sure that he isn't. And it's not like you could see it coming either. Every rookie QB is a gamble, and almost none will be a GOAT. So while it's an easy thing to list all those good impact players, I think it's a little disingenuous. To be fair to Poles, there hasnt been a QB in years that fits the mold Im talking about, and Im surely not saying I know that Stroud is one. But until you find a QB like that, every team has to be looking for one, and if you find one you believe in, the price almost doesnt matter.

well theres that. This is the same old Bears thinking. If we dont reach for greatness from this pit we are in, we will get trapped at 9-8 for the next decade. Just good enough to say "well get em next year" and "at least we got to the playoffs" and bad enough to miss out on the top talent and ever get GOOD. You know the story, we've all lived it for DECADES. We bought a ticket for change by living through the 2022 season - remember that? We stripped down and endured it so we could be here, and what do they do? They revert to safe loserthink. This is Poles version of a big prevent zone. If they keep Fields we are screwed and all this talent we have will be too expensive to keep by the time a QB is ready.

all good points.

I was as big a proponent of firing Eberflus as anyone here, but the errors he made should be mitigated by good coordinators. It's not a reason to keep someone as head coach in my opinion, but I dont think it dooms us either. If the coordinators are experienced and strong in the room, then the worst about Eberflus is the missed opportunity to have someone better in there, but I dont think Eberflus will sink the ship. When he wants to be overcautious, Ron Rivera or Leslie Frasier or someone like that should be able to push back. As long as they get the coordinators right, I am much more worried about the Fields decision hurting us in the long run.

So now that it's a done deal... If you bring in good experienced coordinators who will balance (what I think are) Eberflus' poor choices, there is no reason the coaching couldnt be fine. In spite of Eberflus, not because of, but still. Guys like Ron Rivera or Leslie Frasier will not be milquetoasts and if they think Eberflus is asking them to be too safe, they will have a ton of input too. So that mitigates any real negative influence Eberflus could have. Ditto on a guy like Frank Reich on the offensive side of the ball. In my view it's a missed opportunity to add a difference maker at head coach, but assuming Flus isnt the DC too next year, this could very well work out fine with the coaches. I do fear they are gonna bring Fields back. i can see the positives in their eyes - you dont have to deal with Williams, or they dont believe in Williams, you get a ton for that first pick, get more players etc. It's all "OK" with me as long as they get a projected high first rounder next year so they can get another QB high if they need to, even if it means packaging both first rounders next year to move up - same plan as last year. It also means if it doesnt work, your coaches and new QB will both be in year 1 next year. Or if they keep the coaches, it wont be the coaching staff last year during the QBs first year like it might be this year. But all in all i think keeping Fields is just going to put the development of a rookie QB one year behind the rest of this window. Maybe they will trade Fields and call the new OC the first year, ignoring Flus' tenure. I guess that makes sense, and aligns the timeline for the OC and new QB - and if you were worried you were gonna lose that OC, you might even fire Flus and promote the OC to HC next year or the year after. I mean it's almost like they are firing the coaches but letting Flus stay. Maybe that's to keep all the defensive assistants who have definitely been doing an excellent job. Maybe we can work around Eberflus' shortcomings, but I don't think Fields is ever gonna be the guy. i think this is gonna be a lost year if they keep him. And if they do keep Fields, and coach well with (despite?) Eberflus, and if I'm right about all of this with Fields, then my point about Poles hugging players and getting too close may well prove to be prescient. If on the other hand, they trade Fields, and the coordinators have wills of their own, then maybe this will work. It certainly preserves the defensive assistants. Not sure that's the best way to value a head coach, and keep in mind, whoever the coordinators coming in will be could still have been hired under a different new head coach too - so Im not really sure of the benefit other than not eating Eberflus' salary. But once we know what they do with Fields it will be more clear to me whether this was a tricky way around the prorlem that could work, or a full blown loyalty fest that will all burn together, including Poles at that point. And if that's the outcome, then one wonders if Warren was stupid and on the train, or setting the stage for his guys coming next without seeming like an overreaching tyrant, and without taking too much blame early if that plan doesn't work. In other words, looking like he had to replace Poles, and hiding the rope he gave Poles to hang himself with.

having final say, youre correct, certainly not. it will be Poles and Warren that have the final say on Fields and/or which rookie to take. But they will want an OC that is all in on the plan, so from that point of view, the OC will have "input" in the sense that if they dont see things the same way, theyre not gonna get the job. I do expect if they pick a guy like Frank Reich, and decide to move on from Fields, that he will have major input into which QB to take. All this scares me that they're keeping Fields too. And if we do, we have to get a first rounder next year out of some trade, so we can get a QB in the top picks next year if this doesnt work, and then align coaches and QB on the same timeline.

To the point that we are thru only year 2 in the rebuild: No one is suggesting cleaning out the roster. No matter who is coach, we would be in year 3. I just didnt see anything from Eberflus that tells me he's the guy. I dread being right about this.