BearFan PHX

Youre Good Grizz, even if we disagree, Im not mad at you in the least. Come at me with specifics, and it's all good

jesus. you wouldnt say any of this shit to my face. Id stick that hissy fit up your ass.

youve thrown enough of your weak punches, say what you will. i think it's OK if I dont engage. with you

Since you didnt take the time to rebut the last time I proved it, ill pass on the research project, but in truth youve said a lot of things that you then hedged on. So, yeah. I think it's best if I just ignore your "arguments"

well you dont need me to tell you that Im already done with him, but surely tthat's just my opinion of what the future holds, and truth be told, if JF is awesome, that would make me very happy indeed. I do worry that if JF plays well but not lights out, the sample size will be too small to trust, but if he is flat out amazing for 5 games in a row, that'd be something to consider. I just dont know when you get two high picks again. Then again, at this point (without having seen enough film on Williams and the others) I'd take MHJr with pick #1, and take a different QB either at #5, or trading down to #12-ish or something. I'm just pulling numbers out of the air here to be descriptive, I don't know what the draft scenarios are yet, but if you can drop down and take one of the good QBs later, Id look at that.

by the way, thank you both for this. Both posts are extremely reasonable. If it helps I wasnt feeling the "hate" from either of you guys.

Well I guess some have said they think I want Fields not to succeed so I can be right. Others have been sarcastic etc. But like I said, none of that will pressure me to change my mind on what my own eyes see on the all 22. But mostly, I just wanted to point out the difference between facts (Justin usually holds the ball too long until the play is broken and he has to do something heroic) and opinions (we should keep or trade Justin) - for me, I freely admit that what to do with the info is opinion, but to think that Fields doesnt usually hold the ball too long until the play breaks is just factually wrong. When I watch the game, and cant always see receivers downfield, it looks like Justin is busting his ass out there to make things happen, and doing incredible things. I totally get that. But when you look at the all 22, a different story emerges. But mostly what is infuriating is the illogical excuses that get made. They drive me crazy. Tell me Im wrong, fine. Prove it with some film or picture or something. I can tell you easily that i WISH JF would make fast reads - he has so many other skills that would make him unstoppable. But he hasnt progressed in this part of his game, he was actually better at it last year. But mostly, this isnt about my attitude, or what i want or dont want - none of that makes Fields hold the ball. I dont have supernatural powers or lucky socks or anything like that. I just see what I see, and I continue to be astonished that some other just dont see it! Now, as Ive said many times before, if you DO see it, but think that Fields heroic efforts are enough to win, then I cant say thats wrong. That is an opinion, and we are all entitled to ours. I cant predict the future, no one can. But for Gods sake, saying that Fields doesnt hold the ball too long, and doesnt have a problem pulling the trigger is just a fantasy. It couldnt be clearer at this point.

AMEN. My Dad and I have the same thing too. We watch the games separately and call each other 3 or 4 times during the game, and we always reference the same plays and see them the same way. I have said repeatedly that JF may be the best broken play QB ever. But it doesnt translate into points or wins for the most part. It's not an offense. Thank you Mongo. Sometimes I feel like I am in crazyland here, and the "hate" at this point i feel from most of the group is palpable. Its not the first time in my life that ive gone against popular opinion, and int he past Ive been rejected for it, and proven right afterwards, and funny enough, no one ever remembers me as having been right when that happens, just that I wasnt "with the crowd" - and im fine with it. I couldnt ever lie in order to get along with the mob. In this case, the emperor is stark naked and it's incredible to me to see the twisting and changing of stories that goes on to hide it. So it is very helpful to see at least someone else sees it too. Thank you!

thank you, and despite his claiming that he is never personal, his comments (like this one above) are FULL of sarcasm. At this point to say that Fields doesn't have a problem holding on to the ball is just silly. Id entertain diagramming those 16 plays, but since I put in 90 minutes doing it once before and no one bothered to specifically rebut the work, other than AZ pointing out that Scott was 5 yards past the line to gain rather than 2, I will skip even trying. And to AZ's point, Scott was running at an angle, and when he was open and Fields ready to throw, he wasnt 5 yards past the sticks, that was only a beat later after Fields had already turned away from him. But either way, if a QB cant pull the trigger on a guy who is wide open for a 12 yard pass for a first down (7 yards to the sticks, plus AZ's 5 to be generous) then he isnt an NFL QB.

Of course I wish her a fast and complete recovery. That's a very bad hand, and I hope the very best for both of you. As to the route, if it was 5 yard over so be it, but he was wide open for the first down and Fields didnt pull the trigger and found a riskier later option. All Im saying is 1) Fields doesnt pull the trigger in rhythm when then the receivers make their breaks so the play ends up a broken play all too often 2) Once the play is broken Fields is a superhero that makes plays almost no other QB can make, maybe no other I wouldnt base an offense on that, but I see the genius. It's fair to disagree about that, that's opinion. But simply the fact that he doesnt throw to the receivers in tempo in his progressions is true. Whether thats OK or not is opinion, and good people can and do disagree about that?

Im kinda thinking that Dexter will be good at 3T, but if someone better comes in, thats only good for the team, and if they are as good, that builds up the rotation. Also I think Eddie Jackson is gone sooner than that, and we will replace him this year - possibly a good target for Free Agency, even though i havent looked at a list of who is available.

I definitely agree that Poles has done a lot for this roster. I am very optimistic about our future next year. I know we may have disagreements about QB and Coaching, and those are the two most significant pieces of the puzzle, but those things aside, looking at the rest of the roster, we had a VERY good draft last year, and I expect another good offseason this year too. I dont know who Warren might have in mind, but on his own merit at least, Poles deserves to stay and I think he's done a great job. I think our main needs are QB, OC, FS, WR, Edge, TE - no reason to think we cant address all of them this offseason and be a playoff team next year, even if we have a young QB. I am looking forward to resolution on the QB and coach thing so we are all on the same page again here. With new blood you will find me optimistic and patient as it takes time for players to grow. We will all be wanting the same thing then, and I am looking forward to that. But we can already agree that there are a lot of pieces here on our roster already, and you can see the defense, and offensive line are coming together nicely. Also, even in a year with not so much offense, you can easily see that DJ Moore is a STUD. and Kmet is growing too. If we can count on Jenkins to stay healthy he looks like a pro bowler, and I think Wright is already playing at that level. Davis is a mauler, and Jones continues to grow. Foreman is great too, and we probably have the best "backup" RBs in the league. Johnson is gonna be really good too, at least in the rotation. On defense it's great to see how well all the rookies are doing. Dexter is looking better every game. I was worried about his slow get off, but I see that getting better every game, to the point where I dont see it at all anymore. Amazing. He is extremely powerful, and will only get better. Both corners are playing well for rookies - remember Gordon and Brisker last year - it took half a season for the light to come on. Now they are a strength. And Edwards is killing it, and I still think Edmunds is gonna be amazing too - I dont love how we are using him, but we saw a taste of his freakish athleticism and speed this past week too. Sweat is one of the best players on the team. The defensive improvement can be traced directly to the week we got him. With some kind of pass rush to make QBs throw the ball at least in tempo, the secondary suddenly looks much better. THere are other good players too, and special teams etc. All this to say that i think if we fix a couple big problems, we are suddenly going to be a lot better with a trajectory to be a contender after that. I hope that i can rejoin our community here in agreement when that all happens.

Except the Bears have to decide on the 5th year option by May of the coming year. That's the problem. And if you dont exercise it, then Fields is unhappy and might hold out for a trade. And then youre trading him anyway, but after the draft when there are no suitors or available draft picks and the value is lowest. They pretty much have to make the decision on Fields this year before the draft.

I think all of this contributes as well for sure. I agree with all of it.

nah, my personal feelings dont come first, Fields' performance comes first. What I said wasnt subjective, it was what the tape shows. Fields holds the ball too long and doesnt pull the trigger when receivers are at the breaks in their routes, he makes plays after the pay is broken. Thats not because Im negative or anything, thats just what Fields does. It has nothing to do with me.

I didnt pick the plays. Were you the first one ot post the video as evidence? I just watched it and couldnt make it past the first 10 minutes because it was just exactly what i said it was, so I said so, then Grizz asked me to cite my point, so I took the time to make that long post with screenshots and timestamps. So i didnt pick those plays, but they prove exactly what ive been saying, at least for those four plays - and its not really debateable on those four plays, I posted all the receipts and they are just facts. Doesnt prove anything but those four plays. But i didnt pick em, they were offered as evidence of the opposite view and i think i debunked em. Fields is being given receivers open in rhythm and he just isnt pulling the trigger. Over and over. And the he does magical things when the play is broken. he might be the best to ever do broken plays. I get why he looks like a hero to people - but he isnt reading defenses. He isnt throwing the ball on time. Its in the tape if you watch it. And he isnt getting better at that part of his game. He was better at it last year.

I want to add this too: A lot of things are opinions. Answers to questions like "Should we keep Fields?" "How good will Fields be next year?" "Is an offense based on broken plays viable?" those would all be opinions. But "DJ Moore ran a 2 yard out" is not an opinion. "The closest defender was 5 yards away" is not an opinion. Etc. I respect all of the people on this board, and we will agree or disagree about opinions. The things I've said above are facts. I gave timestamps, and screenshots. I was specific about everything that was a fact. And it was just four plays, not the answer to any of the big questions, which are complicated enough that those would all be opinions. So it isnt you say potato I say potahto - its more like I say Moore was open at the sticks and Fields looked right at him and didn't throw the ball. And that happened. there is no subjectivity to it? So there is no disrespect for anyone's opinion here. You can still agree that that happened and still think we should keep Fields next year. I cant say that is wrong. I can only argue why i think it's a poor bet. But THAT is an opinion and I respect everyones here. And to anyone that took the time to actually read what I wrote above in the four play post, i appreciate your time reading it.

The first part of this I agree with, and i watch a lot too. Im gonna say we both know what we are talking about. Also you seemed to discount my post for the length, but to be fair, he asked me to prove what I was saying. If its too long to read, i get that, but its not a rebuttal its just a refuse to engage, which is fair. As for the misplay with Scott, a few things. Daniel says he was the first read on that play in the very same video. Scott is WIDE open - this isn't a matter of not being sure. Fields is looking right at him, and there is no one around. Fields stance and hips are pointed right at where Scott is headed, and there is no other receiver or defender in that area. It's as easy as it gets in football. Scott wasnt way downfield, he was 2 yards past the sticks. It's as easy a first down as there is, and it's to the first read, and Fields is looking right at him. And Fields is not under pressure. Ill attach the picture at the bottom so its easy to find. Im surely not the only person who has said that Fields is having trouble seeing open receivers. It's a common criticism of his game. He holds the ball too long, he doesn't pull the trigger when he has open guys. Here were four back to back examples from the beginning of the very video that was being used to promote Fields as great, and in each Fields looked at a wide open receiver who was in his progression and failed to pull the trigger. He then ran and made something happen out of a broken play. If you want to say that what Fields does with broken plays is an offense you're comfortable with, that's totally cool. He is about the best I've ever seen at it. But you just can't deny that in each of those four plays Fields didnt throw the ball in rhythm to anyone, and only threw after he was running and the play was broken. If youre going to be intellectually honest you also have to admit that all those receivers i was pointing out were wide open at the designed breaks of their routes. And you can clearly see in all cases Fields is looking at them. So if youre saying Fields is the man and he just doesnt trust anyone, including DJ Moore twice, then I think it's a hell of a lot more likely that Fields is failing in the exact way everyone who criticizes him says he does every week. Holds the ball too long, wont pull the trigger, can only succeed after the initial play has broken down. It's hard to say that Fields is right not to trust a wide open DJ Moore. Twice. At least for those four plays, which i didnt cherry pick, but were presented to me as proof of Fields not being what I say he is. And I replied that the first four plays were all Fields not throwing to wide open receivers, and only making plays once the play had broken. At some point, I think once the facts are so clear, and not a matter of opinion (please read my post and tell me what I got wrong - it's all cited with timestamps and a good number of screenshots that are labelled which play the belong to) you gotta say that at least for those four plays, what Im saying is factual, not opinion. Fields DID hold the ball and DID fail to pull the trigger on wide open receivers that he was looking at in each of those four plays.

and please respond to all the time and effort I made proving my point since you asked me to? I dont think you can disagree with anything I wrote, at least about those four plays? Now that it's all laid out so neatly? You did ask for me to back it up and I think I did? Oh, and just for the record, I lived in NYC for a long time, but I grew up in the suburbs of Chicago, and didnt go to NYC until after college because I got work there. I never really liked it there. I still say please and thank you and that seemed to just confuse people there.

I understand that everyone has an opinion, including me. I answered you on the QB thread with a lot of detail, timestamps and pics. I dont really see a baby in that bathwater - check what I wrote and let me know? And please understand I respect you as a person, I respect your right to any opinion you hold, but while I often can see how people who disagree with me on various things have a point too, in this case, I think it's very cut and dried (to me) - so I dont disrespect you, but the opinion is a lot more confusing to me than most things with which I might disagree. Anyway, check the QB thread post. It's pretty damning.

OK, from Chase Daniel's video, where he says "Fields ran the gameplan to perfection" (!) note that because Daniel pauses and rewinds the tape, the time markers Im posting here dont relate to real time in the play, but to the YouTube video. The stills you asked for are at the bottom, marked for each play here. PLAY ONE 1:41 Tonyan is WIDE open across the middle. Fields is looking right, probably because Tonyan isnt his first read, so thats OK. 1:45 half a second later, Moore is WIDE open and Fields is looking right at him. But Fields doesnt pull the trigger and tries to run instead. On the chalkboard, given this defensive look, Moore was the right read. 3:30 look at fields having both wide open receivers in his view. If Fields doesnt like the DE coming around Kmet from the outside, look at the running and passing lane to Tonyan. Result - Fields gets "smashed" PLAY TWO 3rd and 5 3:57 Scott is wide open across the middle for a 7 yard gain and easy first down, and no defender is within 2 yards of Fields. Fields' head is looking right at Scott. Throw the ball with anticipation before Scott even makes his break, because there is no middle defender at all and the defender placed on the wrong side of Scott is 5 yards away BEFORE the break that is going away from him. This is a route past the sticks for an easy first down with zero risk. Even if you wait for Scott to break before you throw. 3:58 Instead, Fields takes more time to check down to Kmet who must carry two, then three defenders on his body to miraculously and just barely get the first down. Kmet deserves praise, but this was a very risky way to pick up the first down. 4 times out of 5, the player doesn't make it to the sticks. 6:02 Fields looks right at Scott in his progression and doesn't pull the trigger. Result - Skin of your teeth first down, when the right read for an easy success was open earlier. Daniel says "thought this play was great" and that Scott was "a little too deep of a route for me on 3rd down" - past the sticks wide open? When he was diagramming the play a moment earlier, he clearly calls Scott as the right read. So weird! Says the pocket was collapsing, but you see Fields had plenty of time to throw it - and if the pocket is collapsing, why wait for a later route that has three defenders on top of it? PLAY THREE 3rd and 2 7:20 Fields has a clean pocket and three receivers past the sticks with all defenders playing over the top. Two of the receivers are running deeper routes though. Either some receivers didnt make a hot read and shorten their routes, or they are meant to clear out for Moore. Either way Moore is WIDE open past the sticks and again Fields has no one in his face. Throw the ball. 7:24 Daniel says "nothings open" (!) 7:35 Fields is looking right AT Moore who is wide open for the first down. Fields doesnt pull the trigger. Also, watch Moore STAY open. He's amazing at that. When I watched film of him at Carolina, I was always amazed at how he not only got open, but stayed open. Moore is a master of spacing and did his job on this play. 8:10 Instead, Fields scrambles left, BARELY avoiding two tackles (risky!) and misses St Brown WIDE open for a touchdown right in his line of sight to throw across his body to middle of the field (which is also generally risky) to Johnson. 8:54 Fields' arm is cocked to throw to Kmet, and he decides not to because the defender is closing fast. He misses that there is a high / low concept on that defender, and that if the defender is taking Kmet, then St Brown MUST be open. That's how the play is designed to beat a defense. Fields should know St Brown is open BECAUSE Kmet isnt. But he just doesnt see the touchdown. Result - Unnecessary high risk third down completion heroic effort because Fields held the ball when the designed play WORKED in tempo for a much higher percentage outcome. Whether that was a touchdown, or just the read I wanted, the early safe first down throw to Moore with no risks. PLAY FOUR 1st and 10 9:47 Daniel says that the first 2 reads are on the left side. if so, Moore is wide open, and Fields should have pulled the trigger on him. But I dont see it that way at all. I see it as a mini screen to Herbert on the right side. No read at all, a scripted throw. Cool. And it works. The defender is inside Kmet who is engaging him ready to block. Perfect position. Fields' arm is cocked to throw, but AGAIN he doesn't pull the trigger. 9:49 Fields is almost SACKED. Herbert is still open and Kmet still has position but he CANT BLOCK YET for two reasons. First is if Fields throws the screen, that's an illegal block. Second is if Fields will run. You can see Kmet is looking back to see if Fields is gonna do something, instead of having his head facing the defender. This means Kmet is so used to the improvisation, he doesnt KNOW whats going to happen. Not much of a team concept. But Fields has done neither at this point, and so everyone is hamstrung, including the OL who has let a defender through. 10:02 Fields finally throws the ball to Herbert, but there is a defender right in his face with his hands up as he does. We all remember Fields threw it right into the chest of a defender at a similar angle later in the game. Result - Herbert gets the ball up the right sideline for a big gain. But he gets it after Fields is almost sacked, after a defender has a chance to knock it down, and after the safety has had more time to get to the end point of Herbert's run. The play was designed to get Herbert the ball in rhythm for a big gain. The play design worked. Kmet was in position, the sideline was void of defenders. Fields just didnt pull the trigger. Again. At this point I stopped watching. CONCLUSIONS I've attached notated pics below too. In each case, there was a receiver WIDE open (Moore, Scott, Moore, Herbert) and Justin was looking right at them without being pressured, but he just didnt pull the trigger. Four for four. Meanwhile Daniel is praising it all! Now I get that watching the game, eyes on Fields, you see a guy doing heroic athletic things, and finally making something happen. In each case a "positive outcome" which is why this was a highlight reel. But in each case, the play design called for a different outcome - one that was OPEN, WORKED and had extremely low risk. Instead Fields broke each play. Then he did amazing things playing sandlot football. So I see why some people like him. But maybe now you can see why I don't. It's not like all this scrambling is scoring a ton of points, and try this against good teams in the playoffs and you're gonna get killed. Also, I know we blame Getsy for not calling plays where Fields throws intermediate routes to the middle, and Getsy has his share of blame for sure, but you can see here, Getsy DID have receivers open in those areas, multiple times - and long balls too. Justin just wont throw to them. I hope you guys take the time to read this, since I took a ton of time to make it all. If you do, thank you.

of course this is true. we are here to debate the topics, and vent about the Bears, but even if you managed to convince me or I managed to convince you it wouldnt affect the decision at all. At least in your political analogy, if you convince someone a vote goes differently, but in this case its true we have zero input to what will happen! I will try to go thru the tape again and write what I see with time stamps.

yeah but the only reason we are talking about Tua is his 70.6 QB rating year. To say that a QB had a terrible rating and then got better means that any QB with a terrible rating will get better is flawed logic and flies in the face of every single QB that ever burned out with a bad rating that never got better. Guys, Fields is not a QB. he doesnt read defenses and he doesnt win games. He wins extremely rarely (even a broken clock is right twice a day) and usually his good performances are against bad defenses. I truly dont understand all the Fields defenders. It's crazy to me.

Exactly, and there is no reason to ruin it by being loyal to a guy thats never shown that he is a winner. Do whats best for the team and draft a QB!