BearFan PHX

I get you, but theres a difference between winning games, and being huge favorites in most or every game you play. I realize we will never see 1985 again, but I dont just want to win, I want a team built to dominate. And my only point is that making incremental progress, and aiming at safe outcomes wont ever result in that killer team I think we all want to see.

yeah but he has had many good games, and won quite a few of them too, Justin hasnt. It's really faulty logic - if a good player has a bad game that proves that a player who only has bad games is good? I really dont understand what feels like mass hypnosis to me - I know what I see, its right there - and i dont know where this is coming from, unless youre just trolling, I dunno. And anyway my point was not only that Justin's "good plays" this week werent really good by the design of the play - but to also show where Daniel is at with the kool aid. He's calling mistakes good plays because instead of getting sacked, Justin finds a way to make something out of the play after he breaks it. And I just keep asking - why do you want a QB who so seldom can execute the play the way it's drawn up? Heroball isnt football, and Im still surprised at those who cant see it - I dont mean that as a personal dig or anything at anyone here specifically - I promise - it's just like something is so obvious, and I truly dont understand why so many people, not just on this board, but all through the media, dont see it.

I hear ya Grizz, the doinks broke my heart too for sure. It's just... I dont want a team that needs a last minute field goal to win. I want a team that you KNOW is gonna win before the game even starts. A team that regularly has 12+ wins. A team that can stand toe to toe with anyone. 2018 wasnt that. We havent seen anything like that for almost 40 years. I hope we get a coach and draft players with that mentality - that incremental progress isnt the goal. Finding dominance is. A GM who doesnt take the guy with the highest floor to limit risk, but keeps swinging away until he finds guys with superstar potential. In the short term, they oughtta let Fields throw the ball, and show everyone who he is for better or worse. And that goes for everyone on the team, staff included. Be working toward excellence or find another job. This safe crap isn't ever going to win any championships. It just brings you from the basement to 15th or something, and everyone keeps their jobs. What are we, a small market team that just wants to sell tickets?

OK here's more of Chase Daniel praising Fields. I could only watch the first 10 minutes but on EVERY SINGLE PLAY Justin failed to read the open man and get the ball to him. Instead, the play broke and then Fields scrambled and did something. You can see it with your own eyes. And you can hear Daniel say "when a play is broke, #1 can fix it that's why I like him" But there were guys open all over, especially in the middle of the field, and Fields looks at them, sometimes more than once and cant pull the trigger. The headline is about how Fields isnt the problem - its supposed to be a pro Fields video. But watch it. Ignore what Daniel says and watch the tape. Its all right there to see perfectly. Like I said I gave up after the first 10 minutes. But these are supposed to be highlights.

Justin has all the physical tools and then some. But he doesnt read defenses. So you cant build around a guy like that.

Since Chase Daniel has been invoked as a guy who played in the league and supports Fields, here he is today, speaking on Fields. Giving his opinion that the Bears should keep him, and the headline is "Chase Daniel believes Justin Fields should be Bears' QB1 in 2024" And what he says is "I do think with the right people around him Justin can be elite. I dont know if hes ever gonna be a top 5 QB in the league, and quite honestly i dont know if you need that" So Daniels isnt evidence of a guy who played QB in the league that sees greatness in Fields, hes a guy who played QB in the league that believes you dont need a top 5 QB to be elite. Back in the day, this was very true. You could build a defense, and surround a Trent Dilfer or Jeff Hostetler with talent and win games with complementary football. But in todays passing league, I dont believe you can go all the way without a top 5 QB. So maybe this is the crux of the disagreements here - not that Fields will be dominant, but that some think you can build around him and win without him being top 5. I don't see that at all. I think people see incremental progress from Fields and the defense and assume that it will keep going like that until they are great. But to me that approach has a ceiling, and will never consistently beat the good teams in the league. So I dont want to build a team that way, even if they could go to 10th best team in the league on that path. Chicago has been donw that road many times before. I think you need to be looking for a Super Bowl winner, and pass anything up that cant get you there. Also, you might wonder about the word elite. How is a QB that isnt in the top 5 elite? And maybe this is a cheap shot, but Daniels was never considered to have top 5 QB skills, so maybe he bought 100% into the team concept of having the QB just good enough to win with the rest of the guys? Maybe thats just his core philosophy. But either way, using Daniels as evidence that guys who know think Justin has it, is a little flawed since he says he doesnt know if Justin will ever be top 5 in his opinion. And he didnt say it like its an unknown, we all know everything in the future is an unknown, he said it like he doesnt predict it. Time stamped to begin at the right place:

Unless you're really stuck on MHJr with the first pick, I can see us trading one or both down for a haul. Of course you know I think we NEED a QB, but I have the same doubts about Williams. 6' 1", talking about which teams he will or wont play for, and a similar set of questions that Fields has too. DIsclaimer: I haven't watched enough film yet for any of these opinions. I usually do that leading up to the draft when more is available online to see. I like Daniels. I like McCarthy. I might like Maye or even Williams as I dig deeper. I might like Penix. The point is, I bet we could still get a good QB pick at #10 or something. I'm factoring into this that no one knows how any of these guys will do in the NFL, so you might as well trade down and pick a little blind from your first tier of players. This year it looks like there should be 3 or 4 after the scouts do their jobs that could be good enough to make that first tier. I wouldnt necessarily be willing to pay an extra first round pick (i.e. not trading down, so losing that extra pick) to make my choice from among those three or four. Better to fill out the roster and let that QB from the first tier fall to us around 10 or however low you think we can go and still get one of the 3 or 4 that grade out first tier?

If Fields goes somewhere else and shines, that doesnt hurt us. Only in newspaper articles, but not on the field. All that would matter is who we drafted and how they turn out. If we draft a pocket passer, and keep Fields, which offense do we install and teach all offseason? I think it is much more likely that we trade Fields, draft a QB to sit behind Bagent until he is ready, somewhere around week 6 let's say.

If everything has to be perfect around a QB for them to succeed, then no QB would ever succeed, because nothing is ever perfect in the NFL. Some of the issues I wont call excuses, Ill call them mitigating factors. Like Nagy. And last years teardown. Both made it impossible for a QB to overcome. Thats fair. But this year, he has an above average line, DJ Moore and a leading running game. In my mind the experiment is over, and calling this Vikings game an example of Fields looking good makes no sense to what I saw on the field. Does Justin have more games to make his case? Absolutely. Anyone want to bet $ that it works out for him? It might, but it's nowhere near a 50/50 bet. And that's all Im saying - in reality, the experiment is over and Fields aint the guy. But yes there is a chance that we will see an entirely new Fields next week. But you can say that about any player. Maybe Bagent comes off the bench and is a sudden superstar. Or Peterman if hes even still around. Its possible, but like winning the lottery, its really unlikely.

This is so true. A huge part of what rookie QBs become in the NFL has to do with how they are developed and taught, the system theyre in, and the talent around them. I wonder if we had taken Mahomes instead of Trubisky where he would be today. He might have ended up a bust too. But I dont wonder about Trubisky if he'd gone to KC, I think if a QB doesnt have it, they dont have it. But if they do, then you gotta try like hell not to screw them up. If that seems contradictory, Im saying some QBs have what it takes to be great in the NFL AND they need a great coach and team to bring them along, and those that dont have it never will. And the problem is that college football isnt hard enough for these kids to be at NFL level when they get drafted. Not a single one ever is. Youre buying a lottery ticket on the hope that the kid has it to make the next jump, and that you can provide him what he needs to do it. Youre so right - its both.

that really does fit with what we've seen, both the interceptions and the lack of those plays on the field. It feels like it describes exactly the stuff I've been missing. Most West Coast rhythm style pocket passers make a living on that stuff. So I guess I have to ask, is it prudent to try to win a Super Bowl with that kind of massive hole in the middle of your playbook?

Oh you were comparing Fields to those other QBs who have similar numbers. So I was asking if you really thought that Fields was on the same level with those guys, that if you had the chance to swap youd stay with Fields? For me the answer would be to take any of those guys over Fields, but Im taking a rookie this year so its hypothetical. and then I asked if maybe you were just throwing stats you dont think tell the story in to counter adams stats by saying "neither set of stats tell the story?"

So if you could trade Fields for Lawrence, Burrow or Stafford, you'd keep Fields? Or maybe your point was that stats don't tell the whole story, in which case I totally agree. All I can say is that if you watch the tape, it tells a very different story than the numbers do. At least to my eyes?

this is what Im seeing too. It occurs to me that they might have decided to move on from Fields, and theyre throwing all this super short stuff to pad his stats for trade value? Or to tank? Or maybe just because they think its the only chance they have to win the game - which is also an indictment of Fields?

Grizz, I agree. I hope they take the guardrails off of Fields. It would answer a lot of questions. I also think that if youre gonna have a new coach next year, their opinion of what to do with Fields goes a long way - especially if it is Harbaugh. If he thinks he can Colin Kaepernick Fields into a winner, then I will go along for the ride with optimism. But it has to be someone I know has done it before, otherwise, I personally am gonna be cynical about the chances of it working out. In other words, I've seen enough to know what i think about Fields, but if Harbaugh tells me a tuna sandwich should play QB, Im absolutely gonna defer to him LOL not that he would care at all what I think about it anyway LOL As for Getsy, I dunno. He's either a giant idiot, or hes hot and cold and stuck with an awful QB. Im not sure which. I have said before that some of the play design I see is very creative, but the rhythm of the playcalling is trash. So Without being sure, ill go with Getsy's an idiot too lol But if he ends up a successful OC on another team some day, I won't be completely shocked. But would i keep him and bet on him? Not a chance. But even if Getsy sucks, he could also be right that Fields sucks too. I imagine they see Fields in practice throwing interceptions, or holding the ball too long, and that's why they hide him. But that doesnt mean Getsy doesnt have his share of the blame, because he surely does too. It's just what we've seen for two years now is awful. I dont see a reason to keep any of the coaches or Fields. But would I change my mind if they started calling an aggressive pass attack and Fields was getting the ball out fast? of course! I dont care if it's Peterman - if I see a Bears QB throwing in rhythm to open receivers and regularly completing passes like an NFL QB and not playing like a video game - I will be all for them, whoever they are. Last, Im not against running QBs, they just need to be able to throw in tempo from the pocket too. If Justin had that, he'd be unstoppable. But its a glaring hole in his game and the rest cant really make up for it. And I dont see him becoming one.

I guess Ive been making assumptions. I always assumed we all wanted to win a Super Bowl. If we just want to be peak out as the 10th best team, then staying with Fields makes a lot of sense. Also, there is nothing that says a rookie QB will be a loser for two years either. Especially if he has a team around him. And with two top picks, we can get MHJr and a top 5 QB - the list is deep this year.

I totally agree. If Fields had worked out then we'd be in a great position with both those picks available, and even better - having found our franchise QB. Of course you all know my view on that. But I understand the seduction of it. If somehow Fields could make his incredible athleticism work in some kind of sustainable system, we would be on the cusp of contending for real, especially after the coming offseason. Poles has certainly set that up for us. But I would guard against wishing it so, and blowing our chance to get a high pick QB this year. Sticking with Fields is more than just a free trial period. If you go with him, youve got to be betting on him to be that guy. Otherwise, you just burned another year, and the team around him gets one year closer to the end of their deals, and then you STILL need time for a new rookie QB to develop. 2025, 2026 etc. I get why people are hoping the light will come on for him. Fields certainly has the tools. He has a big arm, and a big body, hes fast and extremely elusive. In the open field, I've compared him to Devin Hester - which at least for me is extremely high praise. I've been saying that all along too. I surely dont hate Fields. But I personally (my opinion) am morally certain that the guy is not reading at all out there. We see so many plays where he's standing back there with the ball, and not throwing it. He's taking too long to find the right guys. Then he starts to scramble, and that's where his athleticism comes in. Hes VERY good at it, and a good percentage of the time he makes incredible plays that way. And then you also get the sacks and fumbles. It's risky, and makes big plays and terrible plays. It's not what anyone would design an offense based on. Some are praising Fields for last night. He didn't score a single touchdown. He turned the ball over multiple times. He blew his game winning drive before being gifted a second chance by the defense, where he finally found a WIDE open DJ Moore to get into field goal range. Any QB could have thrown that ball. That was DJ Moore being a hero. I will wait to see the film this week before I say more. I suspect that there were receivers open on those plays where he just stood there not throwing the ball. And when he threw it right into the chest of the defender? I have to believe that there is a reason that Getsy is afraid to let him throw it. He is hiding Fields. Now maybe he's an idiot. That is certainly possible. But I think they limit Fields downfield and mid field passes, and when they do call them, a large percentage of the time, Fields holds the ball. We all saw waht a QB tempo should look like with Bagent. Now dont get me wrong, he has his own problems, and is probably not a starter in the league for some reason (hope to be wrong on this), but he was a perfect example of QB tempo. The ball comes out fast, and arrives at the recievers right out of their break - that's the way it's designed to work. So I get why people hope Fields gets his head right. He'd be an amazing stud if he did. Cutler had a great arm, Jeff George had an amazing arm - but they didn't make the right reads, and they didnt win Super Bowls. I think we (the Bears organization) have to realize this now, and not waste another year winning 9 games on defense with Fields as a game manager and peaking there, having no chance to go further, and not building. We cant miss this chance. We punted it already last year by trading out of #1 to give Fields this year to show it. I totally get the hope and seduction, but I think we need a new QB.

and he is often dragging defenders with him. Payton-esque!

amazing that he did that in this context too. He is an extremely underrated player, even with all his accolades.

absolutely. there are a lot of good players on this roster that we cant really see because of the playcalling etc. I think with a new start this team will be better than some people expect them to be - and that will happen faster than expected too.

another example. just stop already. people havent noticed what youve been doing. I put up with it, then I warned you, and then finally when I responded, people noticed. This board is full of examples of you doing this AND of me trying to be kind to you and bury the hatchet. I could post numerous examples. But I am a grown man, and I will have healthy boundaries. So if you mean what you say, then just stop, and then youll notice that I have NO desire to fight here. In fact, you can find examples from the last couple days where i went out of my way to agree with you just to TRY to stop this. But if you think I'm gonna slink away and be anyone's b*tch then you reeeeeally dont know me. I assume we are all grown men here, and with that comes mutual respect. That's all I am asking for, and I will accept nothing less. As I said before, its often the player that pushes back that gets the flag - I get that.

I love your first two drafts. Getting MHJr and McCarthy or Daniels would be amazing. But I cant see how either of those QBs fall as far as the draft simulator allowed them to? Id be ecstatic if that could happen.

good example of what not to say.

this is what Im talking about. Its constant. I suppose other members arent seeing it - its just that I finally pushed back. I know sometimes the guy that pushes back gets the flag.

I agree. Poles has done a great job stocking the defense. I think the defense is succeeding despite the playcalling, and not because of it. GIven the soft zones weve been in to lose games at the end, I cant really share the optimism on Flus, but yes the defensive roster is looking pretty good, and I see good things ahead for the D.