Oh, yeah, I was just saying please don't think I'm a NYer! lol I lived there way too long. Not a big fan of how it is currently there.
I'll put your quotes here in bold italics, and respond to your points.
Now with regards to your breakdown. You said every play you watched Justin missed a read. And you qualified it by saying you only watched the first 10 mins. I would agree to some level.
It had been posted here as an example of what a great game JF had, and what I saw was a loss that became a win on one dumb luck blown coverage at the end, after he'd almost given the game away twice in the previous few minutes with fumbles, and hadnt managed a single touchdown all game. That's why I said "Bears win, we all lose" it felt to me like we hadnt grown or accomplished anything on offense, and just possibly pushed our draft pick lower instead.
The defense has been playing much better since we got Sweat. We all knew the roster was short at least one good edge, and the before and after has been night and day.
So feeling that way, I tried to watch the video, and after 10 minutes (4 plays) it felt so backward to me with Daniel praising broken and risky plays that had worked and Fields just didnt pull the trigger, I had to stop. And I posted that I had seen that and in every single one of the four plays I saw - and keep in mind i didnt pick these plays as bad examples, they were posted by someone else as examples of good plays - and I said that on every single play, Fields missed the read.
And of course I always say too that Fields is amazing at broken plays, and in many of those same plays, Fields got the first down in heroic manner. That's why people like him I assume. That's why they are "highlight" plays. It's exciting.
But it's risky, and it's great to have when -plays dont work, receivers are covered, pressure comes. But my thesis all along is that Fields holds the ball, passes the point where the ball should have been thrown as designed, and then has to do something risky - and often succeeds at it! I think that's all just true.
So the question of opinion is whether you can base an offense on that. I say no. Some say yes. Thats all good. I still think the facts on those four plays are facts though. Let's get into it...
Of the "four plays" you watched; I would think he did in fact miss at least one read (the first one). The others? Maybe not. There was something like 50 total plays to analyze and I can safely say (assume) he didn't miss EVERY open player.
I'd have to see the others on all 22, and I know he didn't miss the many many screen passes. Those are timing plays with no read. He almost threw an INT into a DE's chest on one of them though. So I really do question his processing.
And of course I'm not saying that he did miss every read in the game - this all stems from a one off comment where I said "I watched it for 10 minutes, and every one of the first four plays were examples of what Ive been saying and I couldnt watch any more." Then you challenged the statement, since it was a strong "every one" kind of statement. And I love that. That's specific and based on logical arguments and what makes these boards fun for me.
So I was procrastinating doing something else I was supposed to do, and went down the rabbit hole. And I went back to specifically diagram and describe each play.
Part of what I was looking for in your screenshots was to see what Justin was looking at or having to deal with while he was trying to read the field. Remember the part about him being blitzed nearly '60% of the plays'? That has to count for something.
And in each one he has a clean pocket, an open receiver, his head is facing that receiver, and his hips are aligned to that receiver, because they were the first read. Minnesota does blitz a lot, but on those four plays, in the photos you can see all the elements I just wrote above. The pictures have a title on the lower right corner, so tell me in which one he was unable to throw?
And like Chase said to be able to 'make magic' in those situations, should be considered.
Fields is an awesome broken play QB. I always have said it. If you can add that ability to a guy who can pull the trigger on the intentions of the plays as diagrammed in a play that requires a read, then he would be truly unstoppable. I know that. But Fields' drawback going all the way to draft scouting from his college game is that he doesnt process. He holds the ball too long. He doenst run the offense.
And also Ive been very clear that whether this is enough to have success is an opinion, unlike the facts of those four plays - what to do about it is opinion. I can offer that Fields' style has only won a small number of games, I can say that for 35 starts he has 35 fumbles. I can say that he's not putting up points. But the scrambling is great, elite, there is no doubt.
In fact, the idea that he didn't turn the ball over more in the form of INTs is pretty incredible.
When he doesnt throw the ball, and runs instead, then he fumbles instead of throwing INTs. 35 games, 35 Fields fumbles.
While being rushed he 'read the field' the best he could and made plays while under some pretty remarkable pressure.
In the four plays I am talking about he was not under pressure when the receiver was open and the play called for the ball to be thrown. Not once.
For example, that one play where you thought Scott was open and Justin dumped it off to Kmet(?). I think Chase and AZ both said the same thing I saw. Scott was a bit further down the field and had a safety trailing him by a few steps. Justin probably thought (in the .5 seconds he had to analyze it) may have thought that was riskier a throw than was to dump it off to a surer handed Kmet.
This is a terrible argument, and a huge reach. Scott is as open as any WR could hope to be in the NFL. The defender is not only FIVE yards away, but positioned opposite the angle of the break, so as Scott turns he has inside position as well as a FIVE yard cushion. At his break he is 2 yards past the sticks for what would be a 9 yard completion by stats if he didnt get YAC. Of course he was set to have huge YAC, but even still, a wide open cant wish it to be better situation.
And it was 3rd down. Kmet instead was thrown later, and with a number o fdefenders on top of him. That is no sure 3rd down. More times than not you're punting after not getting the first with that throw.
There was nothing risky about the throw to Scott. It's not even close. The defender was literally FIVE yards off him at the break where Justin is looking right at him. Daniel eveb identifies him as the first read. Then a minute later, says maybe being 2 yards past the sticks is a little deep. Thats crazy talk. Ive never heard anyone say that about an uncontested receiver. Thats a comment for when youve got a defender draped on you and you could have cut in shorter to get better position. But Scott was literally the perfect choice there. Justin just didn't pull the trigger.
To those reading who doubt what Im saying, please go back and look at the screenshots I posted. It's all crystal clear.
Had he thrown that pass (to Scott) and been picked (or missed) we'd be asking why he didn't go for a surer pass. (To me he's in a catch-22 in those situations).
We're not talking about a 30 yard route here. Scott was the higher percentage read, not Kmet. Scott was an easy first down, and as the primary read, he was the POINT of the play. Kmet had to drag defenders with another miracle to get there. There was no threat of an INT on that play. He was much more open than receivers usually are when other QBs complete passes.
I gotta say, when we get new coaches, and a new QB who can make reads, youre gonna see that these guys like Kmet and Moore are even better than you thought. Theyve been making first downs by incredible effort that shouldnt have been so hard int he first place. Their heroic efforts and Fields' heroic efforts are masking a huge deficiency in Fields' game.
I get where your frustration has grown with what looks like he will never get over the hump of being able to scan the field.
Yeah this is my worry. 100%
He did more issues with that early on, but I think he's gotten better.
Oh I think he's regressed. I think he was trying harder earlier in the season, and wasnt able to do it, so now hes playing "less robotic" and "freer" meaning caring even less about the reads, and playing more hero ball.
HIs talent is undeniable.
Exactly. He is one of the best hero ball players ever. His numbers are better because hes relying on that even more the second half of the season. And that goes along with having regressed at making reads. It's just we dont really see it because after be breaks the play he does amazing things and is often successful at more. It's incredible. Like Superman.
But the debate (and this is the opinion part) is whether you can beat good teams with that style. I say you cant. others can rightfully disagree. But I think this IS the question, and the idea that he is making his reads is a false one.
And what concerns me about getting another QB currently in the college ranks to replace him is I have a hard time finding anyone that has proven themselves to the level Justin did while in college.
Oh hell yes. I cant tell you which college QBs are going to work out in the NFL. It's a big risk. The only reason Im confident in it is that I feel I know with certainty that JF will never win a Super Bowl in Chicago. That's the only thing I take as known in this, and it drives my decision. I cant tell you the next guy is going ot be the guy were looking for, or whether Bagent will develop and force us to realize how good he is, or whether we will be right back here in a couple years talking abut the next Bears QB.
I know that doesn't mean everything when it comes to making it in the NFL but to me, that proves he can perform in the most challenging of atmospheres.
Except this isnt draft day 2021. We've seen him in the NFL for three seasons now not performing. I mean the best you can say about JF is what you think he might change into. You cant seriously say that with a record of 8-27 that he has performed.
What you can say is that maybe it wasnt his fault. The coaching, and talent around him werent good enough etc. But you cant say hes done it. It is not proven that he can perform in the most challenging of atmospheres in the NFL at all. Only that you might think he will in the future.
Lastly. there's nothing wrong with wanting to 'defend this hill' if you feel passionate about it. Like Mongo said, I've 'been there done that'. I took some barbs for bailing on Trubisky, being a fan of Lovie's and exchanged heat with Jason over olinemen vs skill players. It happens. I trust you when you say you want Justin to succeed but you want a real strong plan A in place it doesn't work out.
Yeah I cant predict the future, but nothing Ive seen tells me he will get better at processing and reading defenses, and throwing the ball on time or with anticipation. And I fully believe that is a fatal flaw, despite everything else.
But yes of course I dont hate Fields the person. I kinda fell bad for him. He is so talented and seems like a really good kid. He works very hard, hes a good locker room leader. And if he was great, wed be in an amazing position going into next season. Especially not having to use a high pick on QB.
I wish that was true.
But it just seems so painfully obvious to me that he does not have that one necessary skill.
In college the receivers are so open, it's hard to project to the pros. You can say the same thing about Caleb Williams the surefire generational talent! Who knows?!
But too the main tiny point - I still think those four plays all show the exact thing Im talking about in about as stark a contrast as I could imagine. A lot of times things are grey, and it's hard to be sure. But that Scott play for example, which Ill post again below, couldnt be clearer. If you dont throw that ball because a defender is 5 yards away positioned on the wrong side of the break, because its too risky, then you cant throw any pass at all, they would ALL be too risky.
The only receiver I saw more open that that was St Brown on one of the other plays I diagrammed! LOL
But yeah this talk that I dont like Fields, or I want him to fail becaue I need to win an argument or any of that nonsense aint it. I just think the emperor is stark naked and it seems so clear to my eyes.
Like Ive said, you dont see the receivers on the TV coverage as well, watching the game the first time, I tend to follow the ball, so I get how people see Fields running around making plays. But once you go back and take a minute with the all 22, this glaring weakness sticks out on almost every play that has a read, and you start to realize, sadly, that JF has a fatal flaw and there is no evidence so far that he's gonna fix it.
Ill also say that he often looks like he has it beat int he first few plays of the games, when we are in the scripted plays. Justin can spend extra time thinking about them so his processing can seem better, like in Detroit. But once you get past that first drive, it's a lot of holding the ball and broken plays. And Getsy trying to force the ball out with non read plays like screens.
Thanks for reading all of this.
Play 2 to Scott below. At that frame, throw the ball. Look at Fields' hips and head. This is his read. Why isn't he throwing it?
