BearFan PHX

yup

Im starting to think we havent been a very good franchise LOL

maybe 31 - 14 but yeah this is sure looking like it.

If that scandal didnt exist, Id fully agree about Gruden. And you said it well about commanding a room. And the scandal doesnt really bother me, but I don't know how it plays with each player, many of whom have chosen to put "stop hate" on their helmets. But im not even saying I know what theyd think. I just dont know how to value it for each player at all. I also really hope we get it right, and i am less interested in having called it correctly than I am in Caleb becoming an all time great QB. If that happens with any of these guys, i will be ecstatic!

I see that too. I dont see him as uncomfortable or insecure, the way Thomas Brown is in press conferences. I just see him as an assistant type. Same as Kevin OConnell, I agree. At some point soon we will all have said what we think and there will be no point in debating it further. I dont want to sound like a broken record, and I dont have any proof of anything, so it's just a gut call. I do absolutely recognize Johnson's offensive scheme skills. If we could have him as OC, I'd do it in a heartbeat, so I get it. And if he can do that for us, it will be great. If we hire any of these guys, I'm gonna be all in, and hope for the positive traits to win out. I just personally cant help but to think that this team needs a strong identity and not just a big brain. I feel like the Bears need a chip on their shoulder so I prefer Vrabel. If we do go with Vrabel, then Im gonna want a guy very much like Johnson for OC, and it'll matter a lot who it is.

Vrabel obviously has a commanding physical presence, but as you say that isnt necessary. Leadership is. I see guys like McVey and Shanahan who are not physically imposing, but their chests speak dominance. Not that they are muscular, just their body language, to me, looks like a leader. Your example of OConnell is a good one. I agree he doesnt have the thing I'm talking about, but his team has been successful. I don't think they've beaten many good teams, but we almost beat them a few weeks ago. But Im not gonna try to argue that the Vikings arent really that good, no matter how you get to 13-2, it's still good of course. I wouldnt trust a guy like that to lead the Bears. But I agree you made a good point with him as an example. I dunno how long it will last, but at 13-2 you have the right to claim that example until they falter, and I cant prove they ever will. I just think in general those kind of guys cant keep the team together if they hit adversity?

I don't feel it at all - it's all good we just disagree about it. To me he feels corporate and assistant-ish, deferential. Confident, but because of his title, not like shines from inside confidence. And again, it's cool if we read him differently. I don't want to turn this discussion over the next months into anyone checking any one else's man card or ability to read strength or anything like that. I respect you, Mongo, and I respect most on this board as grown men, so this subject could be dicey. I look at this, and it feels different.

lets go Carolina! and as always, love the ongoing analysis - better than you get anywhere else on the web.

It seems to me to be a choice between 1) a guy who has great offensive schemes but is an unknown as a head coach and 2) a guy who is a strong head coach, but is an unknown as far as who the OC would be. Either way there is some unknown involved. I also agree that building Caleb is the #1 priority, but I'm not sure that's just about being super creative with offensive wrinkles. To me it'll be more about protecting him, demanding full effort from WRs, establishing a run game, creating a winning culture for the team, and building Caleb as a man and player to some extent. I think to think of Vrabel like Eberflus (when we hired him) - just a defensive guy who hopefully will build a culture is selling Vrabel short. I think he knows a lot about offense, and specifically about blocking technique, how to run polished routes, how to establish run blocking rules etc. I think he knows football from the field, rather than the sideline, and can get the best performances out of players by demanding accountability and by teaching physical technique. I've seen plenty of film on Vrabel working with offensive players on the practice field, and he fully understands each position down to the small body cues and leverages.

I get it - Harbaugh is a pain in the ass, but he is a hard ass that demands accountability too. I can understand passing on him specifically, but I'd like to get someone similar.

I cant remember shit anymore, but I can still spell Wojciechowski LOL

this is a good point. and a head coach who has been a successful player is a plus too.

I agree. If I thought that would be Vrabel's production here i wouldn't be supporting him. But we disagree on what Vrabel would do with this team. And that's OK. I still want Vrabel over a first time HC who is an Xs and Os guy but lacks that spark of leadership. We should have grabbed Harbaugh. If Warren didnt get along with him, we could have easily replaced Warren instead.

when you said Foster, you mean Johnson I assume. I make those kind of typo things all the time too. any decision has risk of course. and whoever we hire I'm gonna root hard for them. But yes, I think we need someone to set the culture right, and not just bring in Xs and Os. We need that too, but thats really the OCs job.

Vrabel got fired because his GM picked bad QBs, and got fired. Your stats show that. Also Vrabel will not be the OC. He will be the HC. You can argue that you like Johnson better, but you cant really say that Vrabel is a bad head coach, it's just not true.

I dont think they will bring back Jenkins as a starter. I think we need four new starters on the OL, with at least 2 of them being rookies.

exactly, and thats what i worry about. That someone uses this when he stumbles in some way - like loses a few games for example?

here's one. I'm not particularly upset about locker room talk myself, but you asked, so here it is for context. I just worry that people will use it against him when they have other true agendas, and apparently he went after Goodell too, which could screw us. But I just say this as concerns, I'm not actively campaigning against Gruden myself. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/sports/las-vegas-raiders-coach-jon-gruden-resigns-over-racist-homophobic-n1281295

If they choose Gruden, I'm gonna be all in on him. That one sensationalist scandal aside, which was really not about football at all, I think he'd be fantastic. And if they hire him, I will root for him. I can easily agree and say that without that particular issue, I'd be very open to him as head coach too.

Oh yeah, I understand the difference between being hateful and being funny. I'm not weighing in on what he said. I'm saying that should we encounter a rough patch, it would be easy for this locker room to abandon him, and use that as a rallying cry. Especially after Eberflus was so corny and weak?

I dont think Gruden can hold a locker room after the racist stuff he wrote. He literally compared a black guys lips to car tires. So if anything at all goes wrong, the locker room could quit on him easily. That might not be fair, but it is what it is. If he hadnt done that, then yeah Id be all in, he has great energy and a great football mind too. I also agree that Johnson could do really well. I love him as OC, he's awesome. I just dont see the HC leadership that Campbell provides on that Lions team coming with Johnson. IF we choose him I will be very happy to be wrong about it.

right. get a great HC and a great OC and a great OL etc - winning takes all of that!

yeah Im not one that thinks that an OC is destined to fail. Everyone was an OC or a DC once. And being an OC isnt a bad thing at all. With a QB like Caleb, it's a bonus. I just think we need someone who shows skills as a HC, and all I really hear about Johnson is what a great OC he is. So I dont know what kind of HC he would be. That means he could be great too - I just dont know. He doesnt strike me as particularly alpha though in press conferences and mic'd up film. And he doesnt need to be imposing like Vrabel, Im not looking for a cartoon. Guys with similar body types like McVey, Shanahan and even Kingsbury have more presence to me. So I worry about Johnson, but he is definitely a great OC and could well prove my concerns wrong I fully admit. It's just that I see Vrabel there just dripping with leadership, and I think "he will attract good OC candidates and so will Caleb," and so I think about having a HC at HC instead of using the HC to get in an OC? Not saying an OC cant be a head coach, but I am saying that I dont see anyone arguing how much talent Johnson has at the skills a HC needs, they just wish he was our OC basically, and so do I, but HC is a different thing, and I dont see anything that tells me hes a sure fire success at those skills? I dont hate Johnson, but I would take Vrabel over him easily if the choice was mine?

I think this is right about the Bears not going for the big fish. You're also right that there are countless examples of offensive and defensive coordinators that have failed as head coach, and a handful of each that have succeeded. One cant say that because someone is an offensive guy that they are more likely to fail - it's probably the reverse - the offensive coordinators probably have a small edge on the defensive ones as far as head coach success. I think in the end it comes down to the guy, and whether he will be a good head coach or not. To me, Vrabel is as big a fish as Johnson, and I agree that int he past the Bears would have avoided them both. Let's hope we land a big fish, and arent put off by money or brash personalities or any of the things the Bears have avoided before, and make a solid hire. I personally prefer Vrabel, because he is a proven head coach, and has the leadership qualities i think are crucial for us. But in that case, we'd also need a killer OC, I agree. I also think that all the arguments Im hearing for Johnson revolve around him being an OC for us, and I havent really heard anyone assert that he's their favorite candidate because of any of the skills a head coach needs - just his offensive brilliance as a coordinator.

Here's some good news on Braxton Jones from Ian Rappaport. I still think Jones is no better than a swing tackle for us, and we should not have him starting, but of course i wish the guy a full and speedy recovery.