BearFan PHX

I cant remember shit anymore, but I can still spell Wojciechowski LOL

this is a good point. and a head coach who has been a successful player is a plus too.

I agree. If I thought that would be Vrabel's production here i wouldn't be supporting him. But we disagree on what Vrabel would do with this team. And that's OK. I still want Vrabel over a first time HC who is an Xs and Os guy but lacks that spark of leadership. We should have grabbed Harbaugh. If Warren didnt get along with him, we could have easily replaced Warren instead.

when you said Foster, you mean Johnson I assume. I make those kind of typo things all the time too. any decision has risk of course. and whoever we hire I'm gonna root hard for them. But yes, I think we need someone to set the culture right, and not just bring in Xs and Os. We need that too, but thats really the OCs job.

Vrabel got fired because his GM picked bad QBs, and got fired. Your stats show that. Also Vrabel will not be the OC. He will be the HC. You can argue that you like Johnson better, but you cant really say that Vrabel is a bad head coach, it's just not true.

I dont think they will bring back Jenkins as a starter. I think we need four new starters on the OL, with at least 2 of them being rookies.

exactly, and thats what i worry about. That someone uses this when he stumbles in some way - like loses a few games for example?

here's one. I'm not particularly upset about locker room talk myself, but you asked, so here it is for context. I just worry that people will use it against him when they have other true agendas, and apparently he went after Goodell too, which could screw us. But I just say this as concerns, I'm not actively campaigning against Gruden myself. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/sports/las-vegas-raiders-coach-jon-gruden-resigns-over-racist-homophobic-n1281295

If they choose Gruden, I'm gonna be all in on him. That one sensationalist scandal aside, which was really not about football at all, I think he'd be fantastic. And if they hire him, I will root for him. I can easily agree and say that without that particular issue, I'd be very open to him as head coach too.

Oh yeah, I understand the difference between being hateful and being funny. I'm not weighing in on what he said. I'm saying that should we encounter a rough patch, it would be easy for this locker room to abandon him, and use that as a rallying cry. Especially after Eberflus was so corny and weak?

I dont think Gruden can hold a locker room after the racist stuff he wrote. He literally compared a black guys lips to car tires. So if anything at all goes wrong, the locker room could quit on him easily. That might not be fair, but it is what it is. If he hadnt done that, then yeah Id be all in, he has great energy and a great football mind too. I also agree that Johnson could do really well. I love him as OC, he's awesome. I just dont see the HC leadership that Campbell provides on that Lions team coming with Johnson. IF we choose him I will be very happy to be wrong about it.

right. get a great HC and a great OC and a great OL etc - winning takes all of that!

yeah Im not one that thinks that an OC is destined to fail. Everyone was an OC or a DC once. And being an OC isnt a bad thing at all. With a QB like Caleb, it's a bonus. I just think we need someone who shows skills as a HC, and all I really hear about Johnson is what a great OC he is. So I dont know what kind of HC he would be. That means he could be great too - I just dont know. He doesnt strike me as particularly alpha though in press conferences and mic'd up film. And he doesnt need to be imposing like Vrabel, Im not looking for a cartoon. Guys with similar body types like McVey, Shanahan and even Kingsbury have more presence to me. So I worry about Johnson, but he is definitely a great OC and could well prove my concerns wrong I fully admit. It's just that I see Vrabel there just dripping with leadership, and I think "he will attract good OC candidates and so will Caleb," and so I think about having a HC at HC instead of using the HC to get in an OC? Not saying an OC cant be a head coach, but I am saying that I dont see anyone arguing how much talent Johnson has at the skills a HC needs, they just wish he was our OC basically, and so do I, but HC is a different thing, and I dont see anything that tells me hes a sure fire success at those skills? I dont hate Johnson, but I would take Vrabel over him easily if the choice was mine?

I think this is right about the Bears not going for the big fish. You're also right that there are countless examples of offensive and defensive coordinators that have failed as head coach, and a handful of each that have succeeded. One cant say that because someone is an offensive guy that they are more likely to fail - it's probably the reverse - the offensive coordinators probably have a small edge on the defensive ones as far as head coach success. I think in the end it comes down to the guy, and whether he will be a good head coach or not. To me, Vrabel is as big a fish as Johnson, and I agree that int he past the Bears would have avoided them both. Let's hope we land a big fish, and arent put off by money or brash personalities or any of the things the Bears have avoided before, and make a solid hire. I personally prefer Vrabel, because he is a proven head coach, and has the leadership qualities i think are crucial for us. But in that case, we'd also need a killer OC, I agree. I also think that all the arguments Im hearing for Johnson revolve around him being an OC for us, and I havent really heard anyone assert that he's their favorite candidate because of any of the skills a head coach needs - just his offensive brilliance as a coordinator.

Here's some good news on Braxton Jones from Ian Rappaport. I still think Jones is no better than a swing tackle for us, and we should not have him starting, but of course i wish the guy a full and speedy recovery.

I agree with you in this. We have to develop Caleb. Well, I am sure if you're looking at Vrabel, you talk about who the OC will be. It wont be a gamble, it'll be whoever the names they are looking at are? Also, if you hire Johnson, he still has to be HC, so the OC and QB position coach are still going to be incredibly important hires for Caleb - no matter who the HC is? I think the mistake people are making is in thinking Johnson would be our OC. Id LOVE that. Id pay him his $15M to come here as OC under Vrabel if that's what it took. We are aligned on that. But having him as HC still means Caleb is mostly working with the OC and QB coach. So those hires are super important no matter who the head coach is. And if we start slow and the team wants to quit again, does Johnson have the HC skills to handle that? That's the problem with trying ot be the OC from the HC position. Again we totally agree. I think we all agree on most of the things that are important, but how to get there is where we differ. I promise you that Mike Vrabel cares about a strong OL just as much as Johnson. He gets that. And again, whoever your OC is going to be could be hired under Johnson OR Vrabel. So no one is looking for decent or average. It just feels like we are trying to use the HC position to lure Johnson into being our OC. And again, i would LOVE Johnson as OC. But its HC we are talking about. I'm with you 100% on this. Caleb needs a great coach, a great scheme, a great culture and a great OL. I think Stinger makes a tactical error here in trying to sell Vrabel as a "lesser choice than Johnson, but it's OK." If I thought that, I'd be out on Vrabel. I think Vrabel brings in a great offensive staff. OCs should be lining up to work with Caleb in a culture that Vrabel keeps. There will be some who have experience too. I just think in all this rush to get Johnson to be our OC, we're forgetting what the HC does, and hiring the right guy for the wrong job?

I think we all agree that Caleb's development is paramount. I think we also all agree that our culture is trash, and that realistically, we are going to have to emotionally reclaim certain players like DJ Moore and Jaylon Johnson because they are so good, and we are highly invested in them. You can't scrap the whole roster and start from scratch, Caleb's rookie window is already 20% of the way over. So we all see the need for both offensive competence and team leadership. The question we are debating is how to do that. Who is best. I think we all agree that Ben Johnson is a hell of an Offensive mind. I think we all agree that Vrabel is a tough leader who can set a tone and build a culture. So I understand the people thinking Caleb is goal #1, so you bring in the best offensive guy. I agree. But i think that guy should be the offensive coordinator. That's really the OCs job. And the head coach does the head coaches job. The argument im reading is to take the best OC we can find, and make him head coach so he can be OC. But what if he lacks the HC skill of leadership and culture building? We have all seen good OCs fail at being head coaches. And we've seen some succeed too. For sure. There is some chance, maybe over 50% even, that Johnson will be a good head coach as a leader and culture creator. But understand this will be an uphill battle for whoever the new coach is, because our team has already tasted complacency. Like a bear that's tasted human, they have already crossed that line and found it tolerable on the other side. Some may never come back no matter what. I think we need a HC who has all the head coach skills, and an OC who has all the OC skills. And that is putting the proper talents into the proper jobs. I also totally understand the argument that a good OC ours will get hired as a HC somewhere in the future and so if your head coach is an offensive guy, there is continuity. But there are ways to do that without inverting your leadership structure in a typical Bears-ian way; OC for HC etc. The counter argument is whether Vrabel understands offense, and what his role in developing Caleb would be. I think we are all overlooking that too. Vrabel knows football inside and out. He is not like Eberflus who just gives the offense over to someone. I know from watching practice film, he understands run fronts, blocking rules, hand fighting - he was a player, and a damned good one. Eberflus only got his hands on opposing linemen on a chalkboard. The highest level of competition he saw was at Toledo in the 70s. Vrabel also was coached by Belichick. He had many years to study how a winning team behaves in the locker room. I think he would be excellent for Caleb's mental development. I bet he is one of the few guys that Caleb would actually look up to. So whoever we hire, I want a HC at HC, not just a souped up OC. Im not even saying Johnson isnt that guy. But I am saying we dont KNOW. And I look at Vrabel sitting right there for us, afterm having passed on Harbaugh because "hes totally the guy you need, but hes kind of a crazy jerk, so lets not consider just him for this special exceptional reason" and I think to myself "if you pass on Vrabel for basically the same reason, then youre just McCaskey-ing it up" We need a tough HC at HC, and an OC at OC.

yeah, and that should make us reconsider those people as decision makers too!

I hate seeing anyone injured, but he was not the answer, and so this forces us to address the position.

QBR is like PFF - both are numbers so they seem scientific, but in fact, they are just stupid and meaningless

I agree with this 100%. To me, that means Johnson isnt the guy.

that would mean the HC is really the OC, and the OC and DC are really the head coaches. I hope the Bears just do something normal and right for once. Get a HC to be HC, and an OC to be OC.

me too - I dont see a leader type. I watch his press conferences, his mic'd up footage. I KNOW he knows his Xs and Os - but i dont see a leader. Could I be wrong? Absolutely. It is possible if we hire him that he will do well for us - but it's a risk, it feels like 50/50 to me, and that is a bad gamble to take at this point.

Im not sold on McDaniels, but he was a good OC, but a bad HC. To me, thats the example of why Johnson is such a risk as our pick for HC. But yeah, Vrabel and someone else at OC? OK.

oh it'll be worse than that, if they are trash next year he will hold out for a trade in 2026. Of course he would.