BearFan PHX

yeah Im not one that thinks that an OC is destined to fail. Everyone was an OC or a DC once. And being an OC isnt a bad thing at all. With a QB like Caleb, it's a bonus. I just think we need someone who shows skills as a HC, and all I really hear about Johnson is what a great OC he is. So I dont know what kind of HC he would be. That means he could be great too - I just dont know. He doesnt strike me as particularly alpha though in press conferences and mic'd up film. And he doesnt need to be imposing like Vrabel, Im not looking for a cartoon. Guys with similar body types like McVey, Shanahan and even Kingsbury have more presence to me. So I worry about Johnson, but he is definitely a great OC and could well prove my concerns wrong I fully admit. It's just that I see Vrabel there just dripping with leadership, and I think "he will attract good OC candidates and so will Caleb," and so I think about having a HC at HC instead of using the HC to get in an OC? Not saying an OC cant be a head coach, but I am saying that I dont see anyone arguing how much talent Johnson has at the skills a HC needs, they just wish he was our OC basically, and so do I, but HC is a different thing, and I dont see anything that tells me hes a sure fire success at those skills? I dont hate Johnson, but I would take Vrabel over him easily if the choice was mine?

I think this is right about the Bears not going for the big fish. You're also right that there are countless examples of offensive and defensive coordinators that have failed as head coach, and a handful of each that have succeeded. One cant say that because someone is an offensive guy that they are more likely to fail - it's probably the reverse - the offensive coordinators probably have a small edge on the defensive ones as far as head coach success. I think in the end it comes down to the guy, and whether he will be a good head coach or not. To me, Vrabel is as big a fish as Johnson, and I agree that int he past the Bears would have avoided them both. Let's hope we land a big fish, and arent put off by money or brash personalities or any of the things the Bears have avoided before, and make a solid hire. I personally prefer Vrabel, because he is a proven head coach, and has the leadership qualities i think are crucial for us. But in that case, we'd also need a killer OC, I agree. I also think that all the arguments Im hearing for Johnson revolve around him being an OC for us, and I havent really heard anyone assert that he's their favorite candidate because of any of the skills a head coach needs - just his offensive brilliance as a coordinator.

Here's some good news on Braxton Jones from Ian Rappaport. I still think Jones is no better than a swing tackle for us, and we should not have him starting, but of course i wish the guy a full and speedy recovery.

I agree with you in this. We have to develop Caleb. Well, I am sure if you're looking at Vrabel, you talk about who the OC will be. It wont be a gamble, it'll be whoever the names they are looking at are? Also, if you hire Johnson, he still has to be HC, so the OC and QB position coach are still going to be incredibly important hires for Caleb - no matter who the HC is? I think the mistake people are making is in thinking Johnson would be our OC. Id LOVE that. Id pay him his $15M to come here as OC under Vrabel if that's what it took. We are aligned on that. But having him as HC still means Caleb is mostly working with the OC and QB coach. So those hires are super important no matter who the head coach is. And if we start slow and the team wants to quit again, does Johnson have the HC skills to handle that? That's the problem with trying ot be the OC from the HC position. Again we totally agree. I think we all agree on most of the things that are important, but how to get there is where we differ. I promise you that Mike Vrabel cares about a strong OL just as much as Johnson. He gets that. And again, whoever your OC is going to be could be hired under Johnson OR Vrabel. So no one is looking for decent or average. It just feels like we are trying to use the HC position to lure Johnson into being our OC. And again, i would LOVE Johnson as OC. But its HC we are talking about. I'm with you 100% on this. Caleb needs a great coach, a great scheme, a great culture and a great OL. I think Stinger makes a tactical error here in trying to sell Vrabel as a "lesser choice than Johnson, but it's OK." If I thought that, I'd be out on Vrabel. I think Vrabel brings in a great offensive staff. OCs should be lining up to work with Caleb in a culture that Vrabel keeps. There will be some who have experience too. I just think in all this rush to get Johnson to be our OC, we're forgetting what the HC does, and hiring the right guy for the wrong job?

I think we all agree that Caleb's development is paramount. I think we also all agree that our culture is trash, and that realistically, we are going to have to emotionally reclaim certain players like DJ Moore and Jaylon Johnson because they are so good, and we are highly invested in them. You can't scrap the whole roster and start from scratch, Caleb's rookie window is already 20% of the way over. So we all see the need for both offensive competence and team leadership. The question we are debating is how to do that. Who is best. I think we all agree that Ben Johnson is a hell of an Offensive mind. I think we all agree that Vrabel is a tough leader who can set a tone and build a culture. So I understand the people thinking Caleb is goal #1, so you bring in the best offensive guy. I agree. But i think that guy should be the offensive coordinator. That's really the OCs job. And the head coach does the head coaches job. The argument im reading is to take the best OC we can find, and make him head coach so he can be OC. But what if he lacks the HC skill of leadership and culture building? We have all seen good OCs fail at being head coaches. And we've seen some succeed too. For sure. There is some chance, maybe over 50% even, that Johnson will be a good head coach as a leader and culture creator. But understand this will be an uphill battle for whoever the new coach is, because our team has already tasted complacency. Like a bear that's tasted human, they have already crossed that line and found it tolerable on the other side. Some may never come back no matter what. I think we need a HC who has all the head coach skills, and an OC who has all the OC skills. And that is putting the proper talents into the proper jobs. I also totally understand the argument that a good OC ours will get hired as a HC somewhere in the future and so if your head coach is an offensive guy, there is continuity. But there are ways to do that without inverting your leadership structure in a typical Bears-ian way; OC for HC etc. The counter argument is whether Vrabel understands offense, and what his role in developing Caleb would be. I think we are all overlooking that too. Vrabel knows football inside and out. He is not like Eberflus who just gives the offense over to someone. I know from watching practice film, he understands run fronts, blocking rules, hand fighting - he was a player, and a damned good one. Eberflus only got his hands on opposing linemen on a chalkboard. The highest level of competition he saw was at Toledo in the 70s. Vrabel also was coached by Belichick. He had many years to study how a winning team behaves in the locker room. I think he would be excellent for Caleb's mental development. I bet he is one of the few guys that Caleb would actually look up to. So whoever we hire, I want a HC at HC, not just a souped up OC. Im not even saying Johnson isnt that guy. But I am saying we dont KNOW. And I look at Vrabel sitting right there for us, afterm having passed on Harbaugh because "hes totally the guy you need, but hes kind of a crazy jerk, so lets not consider just him for this special exceptional reason" and I think to myself "if you pass on Vrabel for basically the same reason, then youre just McCaskey-ing it up" We need a tough HC at HC, and an OC at OC.

yeah, and that should make us reconsider those people as decision makers too!

I hate seeing anyone injured, but he was not the answer, and so this forces us to address the position.

QBR is like PFF - both are numbers so they seem scientific, but in fact, they are just stupid and meaningless

I agree with this 100%. To me, that means Johnson isnt the guy.

that would mean the HC is really the OC, and the OC and DC are really the head coaches. I hope the Bears just do something normal and right for once. Get a HC to be HC, and an OC to be OC.

me too - I dont see a leader type. I watch his press conferences, his mic'd up footage. I KNOW he knows his Xs and Os - but i dont see a leader. Could I be wrong? Absolutely. It is possible if we hire him that he will do well for us - but it's a risk, it feels like 50/50 to me, and that is a bad gamble to take at this point.

Im not sold on McDaniels, but he was a good OC, but a bad HC. To me, thats the example of why Johnson is such a risk as our pick for HC. But yeah, Vrabel and someone else at OC? OK.

oh it'll be worse than that, if they are trash next year he will hold out for a trade in 2026. Of course he would.

mm hmm.

every player takes their turn killing this team - that is coaching and leadership. PLEASE we need Mike Vrabel. We haven't had a culture here in forever. We dont need a new hotshot John Shoop disciple.

YES. and this was obvious the minute he brought Eberflus back. I saw it clear as day at the time. I'm not the only one. With ANY luck, the lawyer we hired to build a new stadium will make the right move to save the franchise. It's bizarre that that's our best hope, but this is where we are.

It's a team sport, and the players are not motivated to play for each other because they don't believe in the team. Bringing in some fancy Xs and Os guy isn't going to make this a team. It is obvious that we need Vrabel. Or Harbaugh. Or someone who will inspire and rally this team. A smart playbook isn't going to do that.

wow. we are so bad. the team should just forfeit their next games, no point in actually going out there if youre gonna be SO bad in every way. I dont particularly take this as being pessimistic. i think, without anger or anything, that this is the worst Bears team ever. Even as we have a real option at QB. I mean, youve got to understand that Caleb's dad was probably right.

Ben Johnson's amazing offense in Detroit is run first too. He throws off of play action and the defense is gutted because LBers have to come up and respect the run with their offensive line. Also, i dont think Vrabel is stuck in the past any more than tough guy Dan Campbell is? Vrabel might bring in a guy like Josh McDaniels. He understands modern offense, and was kind of like Johnson is now, a well touted OC under a strong head coach (Belichick) who went on to fail as head coach twice. Youd surely get experience, and unlikely hed be offered head coaching jobs right away either? Then bring in Saleh as DC and youve got three great coaches, each on the position they do best, with three head coaches worth of experience between them. That's the pitch anyway

true, but Poles stayed with bad coaches when better choices were available too? Id give him a mixed grade - some hits, some misses, but more inconsistent than youd like in a guy you want to trust but are good coaches critical? absolutely!

Here is a great video about how Ben Johnson uses plays to set up other plays. How he leverages a strong offensive line into wide open middle passing routes. I just want to say i LOVE Ben Johnson as an OC. I wont belabor the point that I am unsure of him as a head coach here, but he is a really great OC. Maybe he will be a great head coach too. I just dont have any evidence either way which is why I'm on the fence. But this thread is about good football, and this certainly qualifies. You have to follow the link to youtube to see it, but its worth it if you havent yet. It's what every offensive coordinator SHOULD be doing - using plays and formations to scout tendencies and then using what you learn to set up your opponent for failure later in the game. As you watch this, you may wonder why we never seem to be doing anything like this. Also, it's interesting to note that Ben Johnson's mentor was John Shoop.

without knowing any of the players specifically, this seems right to me.

for sure - we see how bad coaching makes decent players awful in a unit. A bunch of Bears OL castaways are starting on other teams, and not looking like they did when they were here. Daniels, Patrick, Leno, there are one or two others I'm forgetting too. They look like absolute losers for us, and then go on to be serviceable for someone else. WRs too.

it's the unfair advantage that comes with winning. hopefully we enjoy it some day too!

I dont think we disagree, maybe I didnt say it right. Im saying that good teams have an edge on bad teams, so the chaos gets somewhat absorbed by their advantage. If the Chiefs are 8 points better, but the other team tries hard, a few things go their way, then they end up losing to the chiefs by 3. It's not like either team had an equal shot at being on the winning side of that 3 points. It's that the winning team was better than 3 points better, and so it absorbs the effort and chaos that flow through every game. The good teams don't lose close chaotic outcomes as often as the win them. So I was just saying that the bears haven't been "unlucky", even when theyve seemed close at the end. Its that they werent already up 3 at that time that they didnt win. Sure in each case they had a shot, but it was a shot from behind that didnt pay off. Not because of luck, but because we are bad, and were behind LOL