BearFan PHX

I agree with you guys. Maybe Trubisky and Nagy will never pan out. Maybe they are both busts. But if you're gonna try to keep the baby and only lose the bathwater, you gotta pick which one youre gonna try to rehabilitate without the other. For me, a successfully rehabbed Trubisky is harder to replace than a rehabbed Nagy. Coaches are free agents and dont require draft picks or cap room. Plus Im seeing more light at the end of the tunnel with Trubisky than with Nagy. Like I said, maybe they will both flame out, but if you want to try to save one by seeing if they can thrive without the other, my money is on Trubisky.

all good points. I gotta agree that Hiestand has to go. But by the same token Nagy... I repeat myself...

Good to see Nall, Lucas, Wims and others are getting in some. That means they know that they have to start thinking about next year.

I have no problem for him trading up to get a franchise QB he believes in. I actually give him points for making sure he got his guy. The problem is he targeted the wrong guy.

the Giants arent any good either, which is making the football look a little better today, but even so they are all over the place. This is not growth.

Everyone on this team is making dumb mistakes. It's almost as if the coaching is the problem

We're all thinking it, trying to figure out how to fix the team going forward. There are a few obvious plans. One possibility is that they'll fire Pace and let the new GM clean house in every way. This isn't a bad idea at all, and it's probably the most likely one. If you think there is nothing redeemable here, then you're starting over from scratch. It'll take a few years to put it together, especially since we don't have a first round pick this year. So Mack won't be around and in his prime when you finally get it back together, and suddenly you understand what Gruden was thinking and you trade Mack for a couple of firsts to get it going. Except you can't. He has close to $60 Million dollars in dead cap value. So you have to build on what you have. You literally have to wait at least another year before you can really do anything about finding a possible franchise QB. Your options are free agents, 2nd round draft picks. Pace (if he stays) won't have the juice to trade future first rounders to move up now to get one of the first round Qbs. He cant really package the two 2nds to do it unless he plans on starting this new rookie behind our current line, which by the way eats a lot of cap room and is also locked in in a lot of ways. Dont get me wrong, I expect at least three new starters next year, but were gonna have to eat a lot of cap on at least one of the two OTs, and if the other one stays around, that's gonna hurt us on the field or be an expensive backup. We're going to need all of our picks, and so we are likely looking at OL and QB in the 2nd round, and more OL, CB, TE, OLB and MLB, and no matter who we get, we are going to have to run the ball and have the defense lead the team next year. So that means that we dont have to fill every hole to win now, but we have to make good developmental choices instead. Without a first round pick, or a ton of salary cap room, next year will not be a GMs paradise. Another typical NFL plan would be to make Pace and Nagy et al babysit the team next year, with clear instructions about drafting and developing an OL. And then after next year they would all be fired, and a very attractive situation would appear for a new GM and coach looking to add the right few skill players to a solid but not flashy core. Our lack of flexibility to address these problems comes directly from Pace. He's the one that married us to Massie and Leno. He's the one that traded away future picks. It was a bold move, and he surely got value for them, but one of the things he traded away was the ability to make evaluations and change course at the end of this season specifically. Pace traded the 2020 season to give us this 2019 season. And Nagy did this with it. If they arent all fired this year, it'll be because they have to babysit the mess they made and then get fired next year. So the third way of looking at it is to salvage something, and change something, and try to get a jump on next year. I was asking for that a few weeks ago. Frankly, it's too late now. And sadly, the change they were/are flirting with was showing us (Nagy + Daniels) instead of (Trubisky - Nagy). And neither of those scenarios changes the OL. I guess the argument I was making a few weeks ago was without Nagy, maybe just blocking forward in power running schemes would reveal some ability in either Massie or Leno. At any rate, theres a full analysis of the three paths (fire everyone now, fire everyone after next year, fire Nagy now) and they all suck. And it is becoming clearer and clearer that these choices by Pace are a fatal blow to 2019 and 2020: Hiring Nagy Signing long terms deals with Leno and Massie Thinking Hiestand would turn Coward into a GOOD NFL OL Drafting Trubisky over Watson or Mahomes Drafting Leonard Floyd Failing to find even an average kicker after several tries Being overly aggressive in pursuing his plans, trading too many future picks as a general strategy Pace and Nagy have spent big and schemed bold, put all the chips in, and ended up with an atrocious product on the field. Maybe the best long term effect of this is that it brings us closer to ownership selling the team. We are not only terrible, but locked in. It doesnt get worse than this in the NFL. Or course it'll only last a couple years. Spring will come. But the "window" for this era is firmly propped open, and it's freezing and raining outside. One variation on the keep them as babysitters while you add to the roster on OL argument would be to fire Pace after this year, and tell the new GM that he gets a jump on 2021 by drafting those developmental players but keeping Nagy etc for 2020 only. That might actually make the most sense.

TOTALLY agree

I just want to jump in and say that I said Gabriel was going to be done after this year, before the year started

I understand the thinking behind paying our OTs. The idea is that OLs build consistency with time, and Hiestand is the best OL coach in the universe yada yada I get why they did it. But it isnt working at ALL. Talent matters. You could keep a group of 120 pound gymnasts together for five years, and they'd get a LOT of consistency. And they wouldn't be able to stop an NFL pass rush, or move anyone in the running game. We need new players on the OL. Don't be shocked if there are 3 or 4 new starters next year. They may not all be Pro Bowlers, and it may take a few years to put together a GOOD OL, but even mid tier free agency signings should make a HUGE difference. Also, Hiestand, here is a lifetime achievement award. At times you must have earned it to have the reputation you have. But this OL is an indictment of your current skills, and you have to go. We are SUCH a poorly coached team. NEXT.

I think youre just looking at a very poorly coached team that has given up on caring.

It's all true. It's like standing in a field that's on fire and someone shoots an arrow into your leg. We can argue "if it werent for the arrow, maybe we could run out of the blaze. But theres a LOT of fire, and you could say without the fire, the arrow would be survivable. They all suck. But who is more easily replaced? I mean, if you get rid of em all, that's one way to go. It just costs a few years. If they can salvage anything from Trubisky, they should try. But not with this offense. And not with this OL. But if they moved on from Nagy AND Trubisky would that be OK? Sure. And obviously whatever happens, OL replacements are inevitable. But Nagy or (and?) Trubisky have to go, because this is a total disaster.

In terms of Hiestand, yes i agree. In terms of Nagy? Im not sure. Maybe theyll fire Pace and everyone else, but I hope they keep Pace and fire Nagy and the staff. But it's like a 55/45 thing. if they get a new GM, Ill be excited about that too. I just hope to save some bathwater...

truth. so we can fire everyone, or try Nagy without Trubisky, or Trubisky without Nagy. you know what I think.

Id like to look at some OL too. have you guys watched this week's Tape Never Lies? We have the worst OL I have ever seen. It's so bad there is no reason not to see how some younger players look. They could not be worse. If you replayed the season without Nagy and the OL, replacing instead with Pagano and a random OL, this team would be looking at at least 9-7 If you've never watched the Tape Never Lies, you are in for a treat. It is the answer, with your own eyes, to all of these discussions.

Id rather have that than a bunch of average players, so I guess I share his philosophy

yeah I thought about that when I wrote it hahahah maybe a GOOD one...

well said re: Trestman. Ugh.

It's a nice idea to think that the GM should make good picks, but the consensus on Trubisky was that he was the best QB. Most NFL GMs and NFL pundits thought so at the time. Maybe Nagy ruined him. But I digress... Championship poker players dont always get good cards. What makes them champions is not that they can win every hand, but that they can make smart bets and handle the chaos, maximizing their chances of winning over time. First round QBs are a real gamble. I give Pace credit for getting Trubisky. At the time, it was generally thought that he would be a good NFL QB, and Pace did what it took to make sure we got him. He didnt promise us that Trubisky couldnt be a bust. No GM knows that. What he did was get an in demand player and make sure he was a Bear. Im not ready to fire Pace. But to me his biggest failure was Nagy. I dont really care if Pace stays or we get a new GM. I just think Pace is pretty good. Will the next guy, picked by the McCaskeys be as good? I dunno. It's certainly possible. It's not like Pace is an A+, there is room for improvement. But if they keep him, I'd be good with that too. But Nagy and the entire offensive staff has to go. Nagy, Helfrich, Ragone, Hiestand and Childress all need to hit the road. Pagano is OK, but I'm open to new defensive coaches too. Whatever the new Head Coach needs. Maybe we will get a defensive oriented coach who will choose a run oriented offense to compliment. In all the chaos, please let's keep Mack.

you guys are coming around to my way of thinking. So now, two choices: 1) Fire Nagy now and get a look at Trubisky with a running game so you can make better decisions in the offseason 2) Wait until the end of the season, and then use NEXT YEAR to do the same thing. Why wouldnt we want to leapfrog a year? Only thing that makes this all moot is if Pace and Nagy are getting fired at the end of season and they want all new everyone.

Said simply - ***IF*** you keep Pace, it HAS to be to fire the staff and try again. If you keep them all, you deserve to burn at the bottom of the NFC North until they sell the team. There really should be no way that Pace AND Nagy are back next year. If that means you gotta fire Pace, then there's the door for all of them. But under no scenario should they keep Nagy. If they do, the fans will revolt. They have to fire him.

OK, so now I think it has become obvious that Nagy and a lot of the staff are going to get fired. Here's my rundown, top down PACE I'm 50/50 on him. I could see firing him and bringing in someone new to clean house entirely. Understand that we have no first round pick, so the new guy is probably gonna trade Mack for picks to fix this mess. There are a bunch of good QBs coming in the draft, so many that we might not need a high first round pick to get a good one with a future. The money we were earmarking for Trubkisy in the long term cap plan will now be available for free agent OL, DL and pass rushers, if we go with another cap friendly rookie deal QB through the draft. We might also sign a guy like Teddy Bridgewater. Serviceable, but never going to be a top 5 guy. So the question on Pace is fire him, and lose Mack, or keep him and try to keep Mack. You may argue that Pace hasnt shown he can choose a QB anyway. Then again, the McCaskey's havent shown they can choose a GM either, so pick your poison. Personally, I'm 50/50 on it. What you've heard me argue the last few weeks is that they should can Nagy to see what the OC can do with Trubisky and calling the plays. We are rapidly running out of time for that scenario, so now, if you wanna keep Mack, you might keep Pace. I dunno. NAGY MadLith said it all. Video game midget football. Seriously. You build a defense and won't run the ball on offense to play complimentary ball. Buddy Ryan would have punched him already. Please goodbye Nagy. THE REST OF THE STAFF You gotta let the new head coach pick his guys. Is there really anyone you're gonna cry over leaving? Pagano? Heistand?! Nope. Goodbye to all of em. So maybe you keep Pace, but only if he's gonna bring in a new staff. Would he? Crap that risk alone might be reason to fire him. PLAYERS QB We need one. I like the draft class at QB coming up this year but we dont have a first round pick. Then again, the QB class is very deep. Maybe we can get one in the late first round or early second. The league cant pick the good ones anyway before they play in the NFL, so who's to say the guy we get wont be awesome. There are a bunch of good ones this year. I assume we will want a vet for the rookie to play behind until he's ready. Dont spend Glennon money on that guy. Bridgewater is a good one. But not a great one. If the new coach wants to keep Trubisky and use him differently as the vet the new rookie plays behind thats fine - it gives us a few long shot good outcomes. If thats too politically difficult, thats fine too. Just let the new head coach be part of that decision. RB Montgomery is great. Cohen is a good 3rd down back / kick returner in a normal system. Were are good at RB, and Jordan Howard is a one trick pony, and we are better off. WR We have some good ones. Robinson is a legit #1. There are other up and comers in the pipeline. Wims, Miller and Ridley come to mind. If Gabriel sticks around for another year as a slot guy so be it. We might have to retool a bit if we go to a larger west coast offense, but we are in pretty good shape and dont need a serious Free Agent or anything. OL Trash. Horrible. Look for the most change here. What Pace did to the WR squad after Fox left, is what the Gm will do to the OL. This is one of the main areas that free agency money will go to. A new scheme will help a lot too. THese giuys were pulling all over the place, and we need some guys that can just move people. This will probably be a two year project to get totally right. TE Bad news. I dunno if we can fix this this year with all the other issues. Probably a mid tier free agent comes in. DEFENSIVE FRONT SEVEN We miss Hicks bad. He will be back though, and when you put him next to Mack, good things happen. Still, we clearly need another pass rusher, whether from DE or more likely in Floyd's slot. We won't have the draft capital for it either, so this is gonna be a free agent until the draft after this one at least. SECONDARY We are gonna need at least one CB. Again, this is probably going to have to be a free agent as draft picks learn behind. KICKER um, yeah. So this year's draft probably looks like QB, OL, OLB, CB, OL and this year's free agents QB, CB, OL, OL, TE It's a two year plan at least. It's not ALL bad news, but imagine if we'd fired Nagy two weeks ago, and the OC had established the run and Trubisky played regular vanilla offense and the Defense played OK. THAT's what Ive been talking about. We had a chance, of possibly saving a year off of that plan if we could prove that would work - that Nagy was the problem. But now, we cant waste another year to find that out and that possibility is gone. Flip a coin on Pace, but fire the rest either way. Do you want to keep Mack, or get two first round picks for him?

Im not ready to crown Pace king of the world or anything, but he hasnt done such a bad job for us. You have to add Mack to that list. He and Trubisky are what we bought with that draft capital. We have seen that the consensus in the league was the Trubisky would be the top QB taken. Obviously it hasnt worked out. Id like to see him get a chance with a different playcaller. Im not sure hes as bad as it looks. But the point is that Pace went out and got the guy everyone wanted. In 2018 he also took Miller Fitts and Wims. Not every pick is expected to be a pro bowl player, and these guys have all played roles in filling depth holes in our roster. In 2017, youre not gonna count Cohen? He was such a beast last year. That proves he was a valuable pick up. Maybe this is on Nagy? In fact, that's my thesis, and has been for a few weeks now. Last night was no different. Our roster DOES have talent!! Yes we need more on the OL, badly. But this team would be in a much better place if the playcalling hadnt been so atrocious. It was bad last year too, but the novelty of the passing game and a lot of turnovers from the defense hid a lot of the stink. As Ive been saying, you have two options. 1) fire everyone Pace on down and start OVER. thats gonna take a minimum of 3 to 4 years until we have a team to even watch. Also, ask yourself, who will hire the new savior GM that will choose all the new coaches and players? McCaskey? Do you really think they can get that right again? 2) try to mix up the chemistry, and salvage something from this team. That means keeping Pace. But it means firing Nagy. If Pace lets Nagy go, telling us that the coach hurt his hip, and just cant coach like they need him to (lol) then we can see Trubisky with a regular running game called in rhythm. Let's say it doesnt work. Let's say Im wrong. Cool, so what difference does it make? You can still fire everyone after the season. But why not use the rest of this season to see what we have without the bad playcalling? Trubisky was pretty good last night. The ball came out fast and was accurate for the most part. Ive been preaching this for a while, maybe you guys are starting to see what Im seeing?

agree, whatever there is to be said about the roster, how the players have performed etc etc, this "all star" staff deserves a lot of blame.

we could have won this game. so many wasted running plays that made no sense. Mitch actually had an ok game. coaching. coaching. coaching.