BearFan PHX

poor coaching.

Nagy was coach of the year last year, but he didnt have a running game then either. He has a fatal flaw, and he is not gonna take us to the promised land. You can be positive and watch the team flounder for a few more years and lose the defense, or you can see it now and give us a chance to salvage something.

a 4th rounder + a 5th rounder = decent Offensive Lineman

yup. If Pace does it Ill be surprised and impressed, but if George does it, hes gonna fire Pace too, and that means we lose Mack and the D.

but will Nagy run the ball in man on man blocking schemes? or will it all still be traps and pulls the few times he does hand it off? Im telling you, I know Im ahead of the curve, but this is on Nagy, and time will prove me right. And when its too late to utilize this defense and Mack, youll realize I was right about firing Nagy now.

yeah, Im not predicting that it will happen, Im just saying that if you dont want to fire Pace and start over, this year or even worse after next year, then you can get a jump on all of that and still keep part of the team together. Again, Im not predicting it, but if we had strong ownership it would be a smart move. Also, ***IF*** you can rehabilitate one of the two (Nagy or Trubisky) if you get rid of the other one, then Nagy is the smart one to get rid of, becasue you can replace him from within. Finding a franchise QB is a lot harder than finding a coach. Now Im not saying that Trubisky is rehabilitable, but after all the value we've sunk into him itd be foolish not to find out. If we cut Trubisky, and he does OK somewhere else, and Nagy never gets this right, then youre gonna see I was right, and it will have cost us a few years to find out what we can find out right now with a bold move.

yeah, actually Im talking about NOT cleaning house. If youre gonna clean house, then it doesnt matter, let the season finish and fire them all from Pace on down then, like normal. But if you do that, you lose the defense, and it takes 4 years until youre OK, and Mack is gone by then. Im saying that *IF* you want to salvage some of this team, then you have to promote from within. And the natural question for next year will be - is Trubisky salvageable with a different coach and a running game etc? Im saying if you fire Nagy now, you get to do what you might do next year now this year, and then you have a much better plan going into the offseason. You basically save a year. Now it may be that both Nagy and Trubisky will be gone next year. But if you let this go on, then you are putting a weight on next year that could be dealt with now. Its not like we are going to the playoffs. S maybe we fire Nagy, promote Childress or Pagano, and give them an audition to save the rest of the team, and then this year becomes the PRESEASON WE NEVER HAD. I know it's unlikely. I understand why they are going to do it your way. But that means they are either gonna blow it all up, or limp through next year and THEN blow it all up. The power move here is to fire Nagy and give whats left an audition. There is another path too - Nagy could bench Trubisky, and then put some good games together with Daniel and prove that his offense works and it's all Trubisky. But since it's obvious Nagy won't abandon Trubisky, the only smart option *IF* you want to salvage this team, is to fire Nagy now. Again, if youre gonna fire them ALL after the season anyway, then what Im saying doesnt matter. And just to be clear this isnt revenge or punishment. Its just about what the best moves available for the team are in my opinion

I tend to agree, but Washington fired Gruden already, and if they dont it's going to cost them another year. *IF* however you are totally 100% ready to move on from Trubisky, then fine, you don't need to fire Nagy mid season. But you lose all chance at seeing if a change of system would possibly save his career. Also, If you know you're going to fire everyone, Pace on down at the end of the year, then no reason to pull the plug now. BUT - if you're hoping to salvage any part of this team and staff, and aim to promote within, then it makes sense to fire Nagy now, and use the second half of the season to see what you can get out of the remaining staff, rather than burning next year to do that. Thats my point.

I agree on Pace, but I have seen nothing at all that makes me want to keep Nagy. PASSING GAME like Trestman, there are futuristic concepts, and they work(ed) for a while, but in the end it is football, and you cant outscheme the league perpetually RUNNING GAME a serious flaw. This guy has never called a game with a serious running attack. Over two teams and three seasons. this is his primary downfall. he is a passing guru, but this isnt video football. CULTURE a total bust. probably a guy youd LOVE to work with. In any other setting he'd be a rock star. But this is football, and the coddling is clearly hurting everyone. 1 out of 3 IS bad. Nagy has to prove it NOW to avoid being fired this year if I am the GM. If he can show it on the field, with Trubisky or Daniel, that would change things. But right now, I see a really friendly guy, a guy I LIKE, who has some crazy pass ideas and is failing in the run game and creating a competitive locker room. This is not rehab or a safe space. Its freaking football.

we'll see... but to be clear Im not making a prediction, Im saying what they should do, and if they keep Nagy, by the end of next year, youll wish they had done what Ive been saying.

We have a lot less ammo for getting a franchise QB than we do for getting a head coach. Maybe both need to go, but if you need to pick one to shake it up and see if you can salvage the other, Nagy is the more easily replaceable. Right now, from within. I think once we have 7 losses, this becomes a lot easier for Pace to think about. after 8 losses, it's "mathematical" and provides some cover. 3-6 would be good enough for me to KNOW the season is over though in terms of public perception. Does anyone here think we have any chance of playoffs at all, even in the most wild scenarios?

You gotta sit one of them - Nagy or Trubisky. Which one is easier to move on from? Which one, if they happen to flourish without the other, would be harder to replace? If you have a chance of saving Trubisky isn't that more valuable than a chance to save Nagy? In other words, which one do we have the capital to replace more easily? Surely we have more bullets to find a coach than to find a franchise QB. Also if both will never be good, moving Nagy now lets Pagano or Childress start making changes, and building for next year, and gives them a good window to truly evaluate Trubisky. If both will never be good and you move Trubisky, you will have to wait one or two more years to be sure that Nagy is the problem too. Firing Nagy now would be hard to do PR wise, but if we had a real team leader/owner, it'd be a smart bold move that would accelerate us a year earlier. But if youre gonna blow it all up, then you just let Nagy finish the year, and then fire Pace, and let the new guy clean house. And that's gonna take a while. ANd then Mack and the defense rot before the offense is good again.

OK, but just understand, Im not saying to fire him because I am angry, and I really do like the guy. I'm saying I have reached the point where I believe he is not our future. So then thinking about the future, like I said you either blow it all up or you try to salvage some pieces. If youre gonna salvage pieces, then Pace stays and youre gonna promote from within. If youre gonna do that, give the new coach, Pagano or Childress half a season to work with Trubisky now so you can make decisions this offseason at QB instead of waiting another season to figure out what Pagano or Childress can do with Trubisky. If you dont fire Nagy now, then you have to burn next year to do what you could do now. The playoffs are not in the picture for us this year, so let's get a mini second season in and move this rebuilding project ahead by a year. If, on the other hand, you do nothing, and give Nagy the rest of this season, then Pace is porbably on the line too and you're either gonna blow it all up, or spend next season doing what we could do right now. If Nagy lays another crap running egg against the Lions, you gotta let him go. Even if the passing game is awful, if he cant run at all, it's gotta be over. I'm not saying it will be. These guys may all go down with the ship together and call it loyalty and character. but if that happens, then theyre probably all going together and the odds of keeping the defense together diminished greatly.

OK, so looking at his head coaching style, he's created a coddled childlike atmosphere. Hes done what he can to reduce pressure on players. Im not really sure that competitive people respond best to that kind of environment. i bet he is an AMAZING father. He seems like a REALLY nice guy. I LIKE him. But I dont think it works as a football coach. I dont think he is any better than Childress or Pagano would be. They would do it differently, and there is no reason to believe we would lose anything in doing it the way most teams do it, and possibly there will be a real advantage. I wish that Nagys way worked, but it doesnt. Bill Belichick doesnt give his players a disco dance party with cookies and juice boxes for winning a regular season game. Honestly he may have been trying to support his players, but in the end, he made them into children. This is the polar opposite of Bill Parcells or Mike Ditka, and they seem to have been able to motivate a team too. And many others. Ernie Accorsi hired Pace for us, because it was all Parcells tree culture. Nagy fit because he was a Reid disciple and Reid was a Parcells guy. Thats why we went to the 3-4 - so we wouldnt be a team floundering for identity, but one with an ongoing culture. You want your scouts and coaches to all think of each position in the same way. And that is, through generations of translation, the Parcells way. Andy Reid allows a tricky offense too. But they DO run the ball in power schemes too, blocking the man in front of you. Andy Reid does not have locker room dance parties. Andy Reid did not allow Nagy to call plays until he was ready to let him leave (was it all just being a good friend to Nagy? Or was he over him?) and when Nagy DID call the plays, he cost them a playoff victory - and everyone including Nagy is on the record that he got away from the run. last year too. this year too. So if he isnt a play caller, and his culture is crap, then why keep him? You HAVE to change something. There is blame to go around. It's not just Nagy. But he isnt doing anything to help either. You have two choices: blow it ALL up Pace down, or change something and try to salvage a piece. If you choose to blow it up then this conversation doesnt matter, and we can talk again in three years when we have a roster. OR If you wanna keep some stuff, you fire Nagy NOW, and give the rest of the team a chance to see if Trubisky can hand the ball off and run a regular offense. If you wanna keep the defense and the coordinator, you have to promote from within. That means Pagano or Childress. If they can win some 17-13 defensive ball control running games, then you have hope for next year, and a chance to look at the QB position in the offseason. If this was a movie, or an episode of House of Cards, Id say Childress got in Nagys ear and told him to "be you" so he could get Nagy fired and take over LOL But in the end I heard a commentator say "not BE YOU but BE US - call plays that work with your players, dont be so stubborn and make them fit into your offense" I dont hate Nagy the man, but Nagy the coach is best fired this week. Right now. What is good about him too keep? That hes nice? He IS! so what? Is that necessary in a football coach? Or even more directly is it the PRIMARY SKILL of a football coach? becasue it seems that is all he really has to offer. Seriously fire Nagy today.

totally. exactly. This is CRAP, and the only thing that is real is when you see it on the field for several games in a row.

Oh I WISH. 1,000,000 BC is I formation, or single wing. This crap is just science fiction - it pretends to be super futuristic, but it isnt real.

agree. Fire Nagy today, and replace him with Pagano or Childress and see if we can salvage anything else from this team. If Nagy wants we can have a pizza dance party int he locker room with grape juice to say goodbye.

No I mean get rid of Nagy entirely. If you want to promote Childress in Nagy's place that's cool too.

Nagy is a guy Reid didn't give playcalling to until the last couple games. ANd he cost them a playoff game because he... abandoned the run. Last year he didnt get the running game going remember? This year there is no running game. Pace can stay. He's made some mistakes, but I like him. I think Nagy has to be done. So I think you promote from within. Fire Nagy now, let Pagano take over as head coach, and give Helfrich a shot at calling the offense. ANd he can try Trubisky, and/or switch to Daniel as he prefers with no pressure.

exactly. and he runs from shotgun with too many pulling blockers. When you put 9 in the box, it doesnt matter if the OL is moving all over the place - you just stay put and fill your gap and its over. it's not like you get trapped, because you dont NEED to pass rush so much. You can stay home a bit. That's how you neutralize all of Nagys trickery - you just let em all run around in front of you and then make the tackle after the ballet is over. If the Bears could punish defenses with a middle and long passing game or a power running game for doing that THEN maybe the tricks would work. But without either, the defnese just stays at home and cleans up the garbage.

This year is Trestman bad. The defense is solid I agree. But the offense is absolutely as bad as any ever. At least Trestman could say that he was an offensive coach, and the defense wasnt his fault. Nagy runs the offense and calls the plays. He is not stupid, he is WAY too cute. Run the ball from under center with a "block the guy in front of you" plan. If you dont do that, all the counters to that dont work. These double trap runs from shotgun are not the basis of a running game.

It IS Trestman bad right now.

You cant fire Pace this year. Without a first round draft pick, you cannot entice a good GM to come here. We need to dig out of the Mack trade hole before someone else would hitch their star to this team, so Pace is almost certainly secure for one more year. And you cant really bring in a coach of any quality when your GM has one year left either. So Pace and Nagy stay, or Pace fires Nagy and promotes from within. Then, after next year, anything is possible. I'm so angry we are here. And there is a lot of blame to go around, but I think Nagy deserves the most, followed by Trubisky - and therefore Pace.

yes. 1,2,4,6

yup. Except after next year you might draft a QB every other year.