BearFan PHX

I'm guessing that he's jealous because he keeps comparing the situation to his own, and because in the Hester thread he said: "I don't hate them for their contracts. Like you, I'm just jealous." I'm just quoting him to be clear to what I'm responding to. No sarcasm in it. Regarding your post, you said that I wasn't reading it, so you would put it in bold and underline so I could see it. I thought that was sarcastic and obnoxious. I don't think I'm being hypocritical, but I do appreciate your writing that both sides may have some validity. That's the beginning of a negotiated solution - something with mutual respect. I'm always open to something like that.

Fair enough. I guess I wear mine on my sleeve too, but I really root for the players. I suppose I get upset reading this stuff (and I shouldn't either) because I see Urlacher as a human being, and I root for him. I think of how hard he works for us, and to see him trashed makes me mad - and I know that it shouldn't. I mean, I GET being a Bears fan, but I think that means I love the players, at least as long as they are Bears, more than I love McCaskey.

It is not irrational to understand supply and demand and how markets work. I’m sorry that this upsets you. That it does is irrational. Do others at your company routinely renegotiate their deals? Did your company earnings dramatically increase in the last three years? Are you one of the main reasons your company is making so much more money? Would you make a dramatically larger sum if your deal was up, and it was time for a new one? Are you one of the top 5 people in the world at your job? If the answer to any of these questions is no, then your situation doesn’t have anything to do with it. And that is the problem here. You keep thinking that Urlacher should behave like you do. His situation is nothing like yours. You are jealous, judgmental and superior. And I don’t like paying for groceries either. I’d rather they were free. But they aren’t. The market sets the price. If another store has food of the same quality at dramatically lower prices, then I will shop there, and the overpriced store will go out of business. You need to read Adam Smith, or some simple economic textbooks. Either you don’t get it, or you get it but you hate it anyway. Either way, you’re responding with a lot of emotion about something that is simple - cut and dried. Its weird that you’re so angry about the way the world works. Have you considered therapy? I’m not smarter than everyone else, but I am smarter than someone who can’t understand basic things like a free market etc. I don’t know everything, but I do know something. In fact, it’s a pretty simple something that I know in this case. Its really weird that it offends you so much. And that isn’t an ad hominem attack? By the way, the definition of an ad hominem attack is one where you attack the person rather than the argument they are making. In my case, the argument I’m making IS that you are jealous and judgmental, so it isn’t an ad hominem attack, it is the thesis I am promoting. Seriously, why are you so upset that Urlacher is renegotiating his deal in mid April? If you’re pissed about your lot in life change it. It’s not too late. And it certainly isn’t Brian Urlacher’s fault.

Thanks you Bomber. Somehow you managed to make the same point in only 20% as many words, and without sounding arrogant. I suppose that you would get the contract, and I'd be demoted to second string. Right on.

I thought the bold letters and underlining was pretty weak. Now you want to take the high ground? That's hypocritical, and that's what I call an asshole. BTW, it doesn't belittle me to call it like I see it. I'm really not going to keep arguing with you guys. If you don't get it, you don't get it. The GMs, agents and players do, and that's all that really matters.

I guess that my feeling is that what the market will 'bear' is what's fair. When Benson held out long past the time he should have concluded his little game, and the basis of his holdout was that h wanted more money at the 4th pick than the 3rd pick received, because Philip Rivers had gotten more at 4 the year prior than the #3 guy was ridiculous. We all knew that the team with the #1 pick traded Eli immediately, and then got Rivers 'at 4', so it wasn't really fair that Rivers wasn't paid #1 money, and they found a deal between the 2nd and 3rd pick in value. That was a weird situation. For Benson to then argue that the #4 pick is more valuable than the #3 pick was idiocy. Can you imagine a team with #3 saying "Boy, I wish we had #4, then we could get the guy we wanted. Too bad he wasn't there at #3." That's what made me not respect his stance. if he was holding out for a higher deal than he was offered that was still slotted below the 3rd pick's $, then it would have made more sense. If you recall, it took another agent to step in and explain to him that his position was untenable. Urlacher's position is nothing like that, but Briggs' is. Therefore I am not happy that Briggs is complaining (if he is) but I think Urlacher is fine. BTW, Miami, I appreciate the way that you disagreed. It was respectful, and even handed. I will always respond in kind to a post like that. We don't have to agree to be civil - I truly respect that.

Man, you disagree here and get these really childish responses. I read what you wrote, asshole. I don't need your bold letters or sarcasm. I'm sorry if you can't understand how the market works. The threat of holding out is the leverage a player has, and they employ it. Everyone in the NFL understands this. I'm sorry I've tried to explain it to you all. If it makes you so angry, maybe you need to look at yourself. I'm not the enemy here, I'm just trying to explain simple economics to you. But I think since you and several other have been such assholes, I'll just go somewhere else. Is this the kind of abuse that this board has deteriorated into?

Actually no. My theory isn't that this is a normal occurence with gas companies. It is, however, a normal occurence with lawyers and executives. The fact is that there are examples in life where the analogy doesn't fit, and there are examples where it does. But either way, the only example that matters is the last few years of the NFL, and in that time, renegotiations have been common place. It happens all over sports, and we all just need to understand that. Bitching about how it "should be" is just naive. Understanding "how it is" is more realistic. That's all I'm saying. I expect Urlacher to act like a Professional Football Player, and that includes revisiting his deal when he's led the league in LB interceptions over the past two years. He's obviously the main cog that makes our defense go, and the salary cap has increased dramatically. Since there is more cash available, and the number of players on the field at the same time is still 11, and the roster size is still 53, supply and demand says that Urlacher's deal is undervalued, and that means the market will move to fix it. Being angry about that is just plain weird.

No, I just don't agree with you. Actually, I toss out rebuttals because I don't agree with you. You are assuming that if I understood your jealous and judgmental point of view that i would have to agree with it, but I don't is all. Well I don't disagree about some spoiled athletes. Benson and Briggs come to mind. Of course I said so in earlier posts, so maybe you're not the one reading and understanding? All of the above. Everyone works for money, don't you? More money is better. Money isn't everything, but it isn't nothing either. Have you ever turned down a raise? But if they know that these things happen going in, then surely planning for such eventualities must also be included in the first deal? If everyone knows it happens, then why are you so upset that it happens? Didn't we try to do this with Darwin Walker before we cut him? I hear stories every year in the paper about players that the team wants to ask to take a pay cut or else they will cut them. But so what? Even if you're right about this, if it is the norm, then it is included in the understanding when the first deal is made. Why can't you understand this? And why does it make you so angry? So because a majority of fans on this board don't agree with the professionals doing it for a living, I must be wrong? Does it occur to you that the GMs of the league might know better than the majority of the folks on this board? To be clear, i don't think I know even 10% of what it takes to be a GM. I don't think any of us do. The difference is that I admit that, so if that makes me arrogant, I think you are a little too in love with your own point of view. I think THIS is the heart of the matter. You're jealous because you don't get star treatment. For the record, yes some high ranked working folks DO get paid more after performing well, and they DO play hardball with their employers. Lawyers and executives do it all the time. And the raise can be a lot more than 30 or 40%. You think that someone who has the position to demand more is a slap in the face to you because you don't. Well, I didn't do that to you, and neither did Urlacher. Maybe you should have paid more attention in school, or grow a pair of balls. The world is a competitive place, and winners get paid. A guy who is a fast talking CEO is a bigger asshole than a guy like Urlacher who works his tail off. I respect the hell out of Urlacher, and I hope he gets paid big. I also think that mid April is a fine time to make contract demands. If you misuderstand the leauge, money, negotiations, contracts and business as greed, then yes, you don't understand it Again, just because the majority think something doesn't make it right. And just because I think you're wrong doesn't mean that I think I am the smartest guy on the planet. After this discussion, I do think I might be smarter than you though. But that isn't arrogance, you're just flying off the handle in an internet discussion, and saying a lot of dumb stuff, so you'll pardon my inability to notice how bright you are in that context. As for being arrogant and superior because I think I'm right, isn't that exactly what you're doing too? Is it possible to stand up for your side of an argument without being seen that way by the other side? Is that possible with you? Seriously, you need to calm down. Its mid April, and Biran is just trying to get paid. Its about as natural a thing as there is, and you're WAY overreacting.

That's fine. I didn't really see the distinction, so i have no problem with apologizing for calling some a selfish jerk. I can just as easily make my point by saying they are acting like a selfish jerk. I mean, I have no personal beef with anyone on this board. My gripe is with the knee jerk reactions. I don't wish anyone here anything but the best. I extend that to Urlacher too, BTW, which is the entire reason I've posted what I have. I hope we all make tons of money, and I don't blame someone for doing that within the rules. I happen to think that renegotiation IS part of the rules. It is a defacto part of the way business is done in the NFL, so you may not like it, but don't blame Urlacher. Were you all screaming that we shouldn't have used a poison pill in our offer sheet to Tait? No, we were all thrilled that Angelo found a loophole in the system and exploited it for our gain. So this isn't about being moral, its about winning within the rules, which IS moral. Is it enough to knock the ball out of a receiver's hands coming across the middle, or do you want our safeties to hit a guy hard to make him think twice about the next short route? All that's necessary is for THAT pass to be incomplete, but we want our guys to hit him anyway, right? That's part of the game. Hitting a QB in the knees isn't part of the game, so we frown on that. We all know the rules, written and unwritten, and we want our guys right on the edge of what's fair. Deadly competitive, but still fair. Well, renegotiation is fair. It happens all the time. I don't hear our team complaining about it. They know its part of the landscape. Hearing the rants against it is kind of like reading a post that says "in the last game the QB for the Vikings looked like he was going to hand off the ball, and then at the last second he took it back and threw a pass instead. No fair!" Hey - play action is part of the game, it isn't a lie, its a part of the landscape, just like renegotiation, holdouts and all the rest. Hate the game, folks, not the player.

Urlacher is a competitor, and he wants as much money as he can get - what's more American than that? What I hear is jealousy here. You won't make millions so you think Urlacher should be happy with what he has. Why? Also, the point is that the money is being spent. Why should other inferior players make more? Teams do renegotiate deals too. In any market, what is possible defines what happens. Teams and players both understand and accept contract renegotiation. Why do the fans on this board think they are more informed than the entire league? Its just arrogant, and ignorant grandstanding. If the team could just hold them to it, then they wouldn't be able to strongarm them. You don't understand the basic workings of a marketplace. Both sides have leverage, and so both sides will wrestle until a fair middle is found. Besides, how is Urlacher strongarming anyone? All you've heard is second hand quotes from sportswriters. Urlacher himself came out and said it was trash. What if he's simply saying "you know, when I signed my deal it was a pretty good one, but the salary cap has exploded and lesser players are getting more than me, and I'd like a raise commensurate with my value to this team?" Do you know what Urlacher is asking for? Are you sure it isn't taking this into account? Given what I know of Urlacher's competitive spirit, I think he would have to be A, except for the 'not that great' part. How can you know that Urlacher's not asking for 90% of what he's worth - a raise, but still giving the Bears room to sign other guys? Seriously, all I read on this board is that Angelo is an idiot, and our star players are greedy jerks, and I think to myself, what an arrogant bunch of fools there are on this board. Does anyone here run a business, and feel this way about contract renegotiations? Has anyone bought a house, and made a good deal with the knee jerk negotiating tactics that people on this board routinely display - i.e. sign the guy for whatever it takes in the first day of free agency? Guys, trading away Urlacher, Harris and Hester is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Sure, trading any player, even all three for an overvalued deal is always something to look at, but the proposition here is to do it because they're greedy. Where are you going to find the superstars to take their place that aren't "greedy"? Do you think your draft class isn't going to want to get paid if they play well, and we start winning? Do you have the faintest idea of how to manage a football team and a salary cap? It just sounds to me like you want to complain about everything - play self important armchair coach and GM. That's OK, its common amongst sports fans. But it isn't very informed about how the NFL actually works.

And if a "joe" like you brought in a big client that doubled your business income in a year, you'd accept just a 3% raise? Do you think that when Hester signed his deal, they were taking into account that he would score as many touchdowns as he has? If you seriously improve your firm, you get a new deal, not just a 3% raise. That's true in business, and its true in sports. The problem here is that you never performed like Hester does, so you can't understand it. And by the way, this goes both ways too. The Bears should do whatever is in their best interest, and not worry about loyalty to players. If they think 2 #1's are possible and worth it for Hester, and they want that deal, then they should make that happen too.

You know, it isn't really name calling when its substantive. I'm saying that people who think that highly competitive folks who compete at the highest level of a lucrative market will somehow not reach for everything they can ar deluded. And if they think that these athletes SHOULDN'T try to get everything they can, just so that they can enjoy their team during the OFFSEASON without having to worry, are being selfish and jerky. When Benson held out without a valid reason, I was right there with you guys. It was ridiculous to think the that 4th pick should get paid more than the 3rd just because of the abberant Eli Manning issue the year prior. But for a guy like Urlacher to want to renegotiate is natural. The team is talking to him too, they know its natural. Its just this board of judgmental people who think its wrong. Bottom line is its normal in this market, and you can whine about it because you'd rather not have to worry about it, but Urlacher should make as much money as he can, and believe me he will. IF you truly think that Urlacher should care more about you worrying IN APRIL about your team than his own financial future, then you are selfish, and a jerk. That isn't name calling, its descriptive of an incredibly naive and twisted view of the world. You want to say that Briggs is being a jerk, complaining after just having signed his deal? Fine. I'm with you on that. But the idea that a player should just honor his deal because you can't renegotiate yours at work is silly. If you were as good on your job as Urlacher is at his, you'd be getting a raise too. Lastly, who do you think SHOULD get all the money flowing into the NFL? Are you in favor of Mike McCaskey keeping it all? Shouldn't a class act like Urlacher be getting his fair cut? Do you watch the Bears because of McCaskey or because of Urlacher? Which one has a bigger impact on the wins and losses? Players are the workhorses of the league, and if lesser players are getting paid more, if Ulracher's % of the salary cap is shrinking quickly, then he should get a new deal. And its not like the Bears are held hostage. They have leverage too. Both sides do. This is called a negotiation, and the market will sort it out fairly. Now, if Urlacher is holding out into the preseason, or opening day, then we can talk about this. But for God's sake people it mid April. Let the guy try to get paid. Those who know me know that I'm not a habitual name caller. I said what I said because I think it describes the situation, not to be inflammatory.

Come on people. You really are a bunch of spoiled fans. These athletes bust their ass in an extremely competitive market. No team hesittes to cut them, and that says nothing of the thousands who just barely miss the cut at all. No, I say players should get paid as much as they can, and if threatening to holdout is the leverage that they have, the God bless them. its a market, the teams have their leverage too. They do the dance, and something fair comes out of it, or both suffer. As far as 'being a man of your word' and playing through a contract, no that's not reasonable. This is a market where renegotiations are part of the landscape. Everyoe knows it going in. When a player and a tema sign a deal, they both know that if the player outperforms it, they will have to renegotiate, and if a player underperforms it, he will get cut. I root for the Bears, but I also root for the players. Brian Urlacher didn't sit out last year because his back was screwed up, he played in pain, and gave what he had, even though the team was going nowhere. This IS a team guy. he deserves to get paid. Where should the money go if not to the players? I just can't understand people here who just want these guys to jump like monkeys, put their health on the line, and do it with a smile on their face when they could be making more money. I wouldn't. I hope Brian Urlacher gets PAID. I like that guy, and I want to see him succeed on the field and off. Anyone who disagrees is a selfish jerk who doesn't understand that these are human beings who have ascended to the highest ranking a very competitive and lucrative market. There is no profit sharing for them as there is for CEOs, no stock options that allow them to share in the increasing television revenues. So if the market allows them to renegotiate, if you are a fan, you should root for them. I do.

Welcome back LT! I'm SO glad you haven't left for good. Hey BearSox, there's no need to attack people out of your ignorance. Good luck to whatever YOU do next, given your judgemental attitude, and willingness to make quick decisions on less than all the facts. Don't be an ass.

I agree. I'm a BIG LT fan. I agree with almost everything he wirtes, and I even agree with his stance on some of the overmoderation that goes on (I'm speaking mostly of the spat just before we moved sites - this thread moving issue is just reminiscent of that, alone it probably couldn't have driven him off). Obviously I personally haven't left over it, and I'm not trying to open up a discussion about it - I'm just hoping he reads this and understands that he is not alone in his beliefs. I really hope he comes back. there are some of us (or maybe its just me?) who think he is one of the best parts about this community.

I've always liked KJ's hustle. He works hard for the yards he get, like TJ did. Sure, why not go get him if the price is right?

Me too. I thinkl there are things, like Spygate, which are properly in the NFL forum - there is no possible connection to the Bears. However, if a topic even mentions something like "Did Angelo have a hand in this" or similar, then it could be fair game for the Bears forum. I was one of the original complainers, and I hope I was clear that it was not a big deal to me - I have a preference, but I certainly wasn't hot about it. In that spirit, I would like to add that whatever the final outcome of this, I REALLY appreciate the moderator taking a poll about this. My feeling is the less moderation the better. That unless something is really agregious, its better to let folks work it out themselves. So when you go the extra step to ask our feeling about something, it really does help engender trust. I've made my opinion known, do whatever you think is best, but thanks for the poll!

I enjoyed reading your post. I wouldn't have read it at all if it had been in the other forum.

Nah, if what I wrote seems like strife, then I've overstated my feelings, and I apologize. I just prefer a more hands off approach in general. On a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being really bad) then this was less than 1. Sorry if it seemed otherwise. I agree. Personally, I don't read the other forums, so for me, if there is any Bears tie in, even if its a player we were discussing wanting, and he got signed by someone else, then I'd like to see it here I guess. Your point about things being dead is a fair one. Maybe that's an argument for keeping as much that's possibly Bears related on this board - its not as if it intereferes with other traffic if things are light. Again, this is a small issue, and not a big deal either way. Also, keep in mind that even when things are dead, there are some like me who lurk and read, but post less often. I do read this site at least once a day, but as you can see by my post counter, I have yet to equal my 800+ posts on the last site.

I agree with LT2_3! Also for what its worth, I prefer forums with less moderating rather than more. If its an awful thing, then by all means, please step in and moderate, but if anything is questionable or even just harmless, less oversight is better than more, in my opinion. This has been a really good and civil group in the past, so the need for proactive moderation is less than most groups. I hope that the moderators agree and act accordingly. Just my 2 cents...

Sure it does. He's asking about Angelo's success in getting a player, and wondering what folks think about the idea that the Bears might (or might not) have been interested.

We've had a problem with our FB for a while now. It part of our woes in the running game, and the staff has known it for a while. Three years ago, they brought in Bryan Johnson from the Redskins to supplant McKie, but he got injured. last year they drafted Runnels, and he got injured. They tried Ayanbadejo too. They've tried Gilmore at FB, and even talked about using Benson that way in a two back set with TJ. They have tried all kinds of ways to move on from McKie, they've just been incredibly unlucky. Aging OL and a bad FB makes for poor running. Look at Walter Payton and his OL and Matt Suhey. Or Emmitt Smith behind those road graders AND Moose Johnson. The fact is, FB is one of the real sleeper reasons why our running game has been stalled. I hope Runnels comes back with a fury this year.

Right. Miller. I had forgotten - thanks. Well, our pass protection might be iffy (or excellent) depending on who we replace these guys with, but we ought to be able to run the ball better next year. Both Brown and Miller were lacking last year in that phase as they declined physically. FA OLs or even young guys on the Ol ought to be able to run block. Maybe we'll all be wearing Benson jerseys come December 08? I'm nowhere near that now, but I would welcome it.

I guess I missed something. Rueben Brown is gone - who was the other?