BearFan PHX

Listen, this is all starting to heat up again - I am not the most argumentative person on this board by far. When someone says that shit and chocolate are the same thing, it's OK for me to say it isn't. When they keep pressing the point it's ok for me to say they aren't much of a chef if they can't see the difference. This is beyond stupid now. Fields sucks, and Williams is the best prospect in years. And it's OK for me to not only say that, but to say that suggesting otherwise is stupid. Every opinion isnt a golden snowflake worthy of admiration. There ARE dumb ideas, and when i see them, Im gonna say so. Im sick to death of being called out because I dont massage some ego praising really dumb ideas. There are PLENTY of things in football etc that are not so obvious. I dont claim to be always right or have some deep ability to know everything - that's just nonsense being thrown at me by people who say dumb things and then want to make that my fault. Most things on this board are unknown to me and all of us. I routinely use words to moderate my opinion so it isnt perceived as absolutism. But I'm DONE being called out as a bully because people argue stupid things and then cant stand the heat when someone points out how stupid it is to equivocate Fields and Williams. And then to be upset months later that I used such a hurtful term as "inane" LOL really? Are we THAT fragile? GTFOutta here. If people need their opinions to be praised, then say smarter stuff.

Williams is a clear cut #1 pick, and looks like the best most NFL ready QB coming out of college in many years. Fields was the 4th QB taken, with serious flaws that persist though his career, now as a backup no one offered even a 3rd rounder for. Fields sucks at "quarterbacking" despite his physical tools, and Williams looks to be on a trajectory that could end with him as the most significant Bears player of all time. If someone can't see the difference, I think they don't know what they are looking at. It couldn't be more clear cut.

good thought! I hadnt considered that, but youre right.

it'd make a pretty good all rookie team! Of course theyd have all kinds of trickery with four QBs! lol

he does seem more like a run stopping 1T, but I think Poles and Flus see something in him that tells them otherwise. I agree usually pure strength is a 1T attribute, and he was so slow off the snap when he was drafted, but every week for the first half of the year he got faster until he was off the ball as fast as anyone on the line - that tells me that I cant predict his ceiling based on what ive already seen - who knows how this guy can grow!

A freakin Men!

oh come on. I said even if what you said is ALSO true - trying to pretend Im being offensive is an old played out gambit. Youre not a victim, Im just having my opinion. What Im saying is youre cherry picking the comments, they dont in any way represent the general consensus view. Also, as you know, I dont even care what the consensus is, I make my own opinions, so id be the last to say "most agree Caleb will be good" as an argument. Im just saying, you cant use those quotes as proof of anything other than a contrary opinion exists, and of course it does, but in lesser numbers than the positive expectations. But yes seriously. Caleb has a clear trajectory to being the most important player in Bears history. If he wins 3 superbowls, he will be more important than Payton. He will be the Michael Jordan of the Bears. Will he achieve that potential? I have no idea. But if I had to bet (and I avoid betting) but if I had to bet yes or no on Williams, it's an easy yes. At least 2 to 1 he becomes that champion. If you're so solidly on the record that we shouldnt pick him, then youre going to feel silly when we all go crazy for the guy as he starts to dominate the league.

oh please, you are cherry picking. The vast majority of analysis about Williams is extremely positive, even if these issues are ALSO true. But we get it, you dont think Williams is special. Time will show, and then youll have to stand behind your words. I think it's going to be embarrassing, as if you'd been arguing against taking Walter Payton or something.

youre right, he isnt a tackle, and no one wants to spend a #9 on a Guard, but he looks like hes a road grader in the run game. I'd LOVE to have him, but not at the expense of the other options we will have at #9 or down to #18ish

Troy is an interesting OT prospect, but as a run blocking guard he could be a top 5 in the league type. I totally agree there are other names on that list more worthy of the #9 pick, but I put him in there because I do think he could be a real blue chip guard. Everyone talks about him as a tackle, but I watched some film, and he looks like an NFL guard more than tackle to my eyes at least.

Expect great things from Caleb, mixed with some learning curve. For example, he will need to throw some interceptions to figure out exactly how big the NFL windows are, and what the limit of his arm is. The reason any top 3-5 QB can't succeed the same is because William's ceiling is higher. Look at Justin Fields. He has all the physical tools, but he didn't learn to pick apart NFL defenses. it's a mental thing. Or a talent at "quarterbacking" thing. Every rookie faces a learning curve coming into the NFL but that doesnt mean they will all end up the same after a year of learning? The fact is GREAT QBs only come along every so often. You dont walk away from them because you think you can coach up another player who is less valuable, and can get you other picks too because of the drop in value. Fields and Trubisky should be perfect object lessons of this. It isn't just that they didn't have superbowl talent around them, they just arent as good at playing the QB position as Patrick Mahomes is, and they never will be.

OK, So if we take Caleb with pick #1, and we don't trade down, which of these players would you take with #9 if they were all available and a trade down wasn't an option? I'm not saying they'll all be available in reality, but it's just an exercise in ranking. Also, if you choose Odunze, then please make a second pick if he is not available from this list at #9? Or if you prefer, make a ranked list of several, as long as you rank them. Jared Verse DE Laiatu Latu DE Byron Murphy DT Johnny Newton DT Rome Odunze WR Brian Thomas Jr WR Brock Bowers TE Olumuyiwa Fashanu OT Troy Fautanu OT (or blue chip run blocking OG) Jackson Powers-Johnson OC I also think a list like this makes me feel like trading down as low as pick #18 is a likely scenario, but if these were the guys and you had to pick one at #9 who would it be? If I HAD top pick one of these guys at #9, I guess Odunze would be the pick. But if he isn't available I kind of like all these guys, which is why I am asking the question. The only ones I might avoid are Latu if the medicals are iffy, and Im not sure yet about Fashanu, I need to see more film. Any of the others would definitely add something to our team. Who do you think stands out?

I cant really argue that - he seems foggy to me right now, and thats surely not a good sign, but I cant swear he wont learn in the NFL.

Id settle for 3500 yards if his completion percentage is above 57% ish I know he is going to throw interceptions until he learns the NFL speed and windows, but we should see a lot of flashes of greatness that tell us we got the right guy.

I tend to agree with your list. I dont really care about historical odds, because they dont take into account the style of the player or the skill set, but i still end up pretty much where you are. Williams shows all the skills needed for NFL success. Daniels has great physical tools, but I havent seen him really do the job of "quarterbacking" maybe he will learn in the NFL - I cant say he wont - but he hasnt shown that yet. Maye looks good reading defenses but has accuracy issues, and seems to lack that leadership thing. I cant say he wont be great, but it might take him a year or two to develop and work on footwork. McCarthy has the mind for it, the skills of "quarterbacking" but he didnt throw as much at Michigan as the others did, and when he did the defenses were looking for run. Maybe he will be great in the NFL, I wouldnt be surprised, but its not a "sure thing" to me. I do figure he will be at least decent. He has a high floor.

and my point is that when a QB looks good without help, that makes them a lot easier to project into the NFL. I think a lot of scouts look at the physical tools - there is a certain institutional arrogance in the NFL that if you get an athlete you can coach him into a football player. Other scouts, and fans like me, want to see football traits that translate to the next level. I think the next couple of years will prove me right on Daniels, and we can talk about my prediction then, but my main point here was that Williams' stats and tape comes without help, and forces him to employ the full range of tools a QB needs to succeed. Others, blessed with college teams stocked with talent, don't have to go deep into that toolbox to succeed, so it makes it harder to predict if they are going to be able to do those things in the NFL. I cant say they wont be able to do it, but i prefer someone who shows they already can?

Thank you! Yeah. I think he is gonna be insanely competitive. I predict somewhere in his first 6 games a 3 or 4 interception game as his ego tempts him to thread the needle too tightly. But i also think that will just make him work harder until he can dominate. I dont see him as the kind the folds. I dont think the crying happens while there is still game time to play. Exhausted after giving it all and losing is different than pouting or quitting. I think hes gonna be a SOB, and hes gonna be OUR SOB.

Fair point. I think he's just waiting until it's official. I also think the league has asked them not to announce if it IS a done deal so the possible drama of the draft broadcast isn't affected. I mean, it's dumb, but it is what it is. To your point though, i have no doubt that if another team took him, he wouldn't be crying that it wasn't the Bears. I think he just wants to get in the league and kick ass. For whoever. Just like I'm sure Justin isn't missing Chicago, and is thinking about how he can excel in Pittsburgh. And it seems like the situation here for Williams is about as good as you could ever expect for a first pick rookie, so I'll bet he is enthused. When he is drafted I expect he will say the right things about Butkis and Halas and Payton and Deep Dish Pizza LOL But you're probably right at the core of it, he wants to win for himself. And he must know that means leading a team, so it'll end up the same either way?

I'm not sure what exactly Williams' intangibles really are, too. I have seen all the press about WIlliams being gay or trans or whatever, and I think it is possible he is, and it is possible he is trolling people for saying that, wearing the pink nails and phone, waving his hand in an effeminate manner. I think he might just well be an overcompetitive jerk putting his middle finger up to those calling him that. It reminds me of Jim McMahon wearing his headbands taking ont he league commissioner. I think it is clear Caleb is never going to be a humble quiet teammate. He is not going to have options as a loveable and loyal backup if things go south. he is an in your face competitor, who has so far accomplished nothing in the NFL, but comes in postured to be an arrogant and fiery champion. If he falls he will fall hard in public opinion, but if he succeeds, he seems to have the heart of a real champion. We may remember when we had McMahon, Tomczak and a rookie Harbaugh on our team. Tomczak was licking McMahons feet in the press, while Harbaugh said "Im here to compete to be the starter" and of course his competitive spirit is now legendary, having won championships coaching at every level, one of the best and top coaches of all time by the numbers. We might also remember later when McMahon was a Packer, Tomczak signalling the plays over to him so the GB defense could destroy Harbaugh during a preseason game. So of the three, Id take the personality of McMahon or Harbaugh as a team leader, and never a snitchy whiny loser like Tomczak. I think of Jordan, Brady, Muhammad Ali, Deion Sanders, Mike Tyson, Kobe Bryant and others as a blueprint for this kind of leader. Of course there are other successful kinds too, Montana comes to mind. But humility is not necessarily a virtue for a leader. And on a team with Eberflus as head coach, I dont mind at all if that fire comes from our QB. I wont mind if he is sometimes insubordinate, as long as his gambits work. I think of that MNF football game in the early part of the 1985 season against the Vikings, where McMahon had been sick and in the hospital, but got out in time to play, standing next to Ditka on the sidelines with his helmet on, begging to play, while Ditka fumed and told him he was too sick to play, and the Vikings built a three score lead on us. Ditka lost his cool, and put McMahon in angrily. The first play was a screen pass to Walter. Gault runs a go route on that left side to clear out the defense for Wlater to work underneath. There are no WR options on this play. The ball goes to Walter or no one. McMahon, stepped back and threw an 80 yard bomb for a touch down to Gault who was surprised to see the ball. Even he didnt know McMahon would do this. That moment was the spark that made the 85 Bears into the cocky jerks that scared the rest of the league into submission. McMahon didnt have Ditkas blessing to do that - it wasnt humble it was outright insubordination, but it worked and a competitor become a champion. There are similar stories about Lawrence Taylor freelancing too. And Dtika and Parcells are two of the hottest tempered disciplinarians in NFL history. Caleb is all in, he will be "immortal" or bust. he will be arrogant, and at times perhaps insubordinate. But he will carry this team, kicking and screaming if necessary, to victories. I can imagine him getting pissed at early prevent defenses for example. And GOOD. This team needs leadership. So If Caleb is trolling with his pink nails, or really is about to be the first openly gay QB, etiehr way if he is motivated to be legendary, then that chip on his shoulder is a beautiful thing. The concern I guess is that he will take a knee and become an activist / victim. And I dont care what the cause, whether it be BLM, or Veterans Health care or whatever cause whoever is reading this thinks is very good and important, I think that kind of distractions hurt a teams Super Bowl chances, even if they do help society at large. But everything I see from Caleb paints the opposite picture. He may be gay, and even speak about it in the press, but I see him as fighting for greatness. So it is less important to me what motivates him, than that he is so highly motivated. I love Dennis Rodman. His style certainly allowed him a competitive advantage over players who's skin he got under. Same with McMahon, Jordan - you know the list. So I hope he continues to be flamboyant and trollish. I dont even care if he is that black hatted wrestling type villian. As long as he is kicking people's asses, Im here for it. So when we evaluate his quirks - let's not assume that being arrogant, lacking humility, being edgy or abrasive is always a bad thing. Let's instead take it in the context of success and dominance on the football field. The 85 Bears defense used to bark at the LOS. That's pretty obnoxious, egotistical and disrespectful. And it scared the hell out of grown men. Because they backed it up. So the question is, could they have been as violent, highly motivated and intimidating if they had not included emotion in their game? I cant wait to tell Packers fans "you dont like it? Beat us then and shut us up" Didnt Rodgers do that to us? Isnt it our turn?

So if what i say is true about Daniels not making second reads, and we all here agree that Nabors AND Thomas are both top half of the first round WRs, then maybe we can see how Daniels' numbers are inflated by the fact that his first read was open a LOT between these two. We can aslo see how Justin Fields looked, even with his difficulty in reading defenses, at Ohio State surrounded by top three round draft picks. If everyone's open, then you don't need to do a lot of reading. So we can see how it gets fuzzy to judge QBs in college when they dont really have to make second reads, or influence safeties. Im not saying Daniels cant learn to do that, but i am saying that youd be making a bet that he will, one which historically goes bad a lot (but not all) of the time. On the other hand, we are fortunate that Williams was not surrounded by elite talent. He doesnt have anyone on his team from last year who will go in the first 3 rounds of the draft. It's like judging a pass rusher from a team that has 3 good ones. You see the sacks come easy, but remove the help and they may or may not be able to produce on their own facing the main attention of the OL, double teams, rollouts etc. Williams did all that alone. His biggest criticism being that he looked for big plays too much, but he was always needing 40 points to win, and he wasnt getting consistent open receivers either. Still there are many dozens of examples of him making quick reads, moving safeties, and finding second and third reads in tempo. Some will say that Justin has the same excuses here in the NFL, But what Im saying is they arent excuses, because Williams put up big numbers with nothing anyway, and Justin didnt. My point in bringing Daniels and Fields in is just to underline the point of the difficulty in projecting QB talent from college when they have lots of help, and how fortunate we are with Williams, to have that question already answered on film.

me too! right now he is a "generational" prospect. Soon he will be in the league, and there are good reasons to believe he's gonna be an excellent NFL QB, but today, they are are all nothing in the NFL (yet)! Right now, every rookie QB is tied for last place in the NFL lol

*IF* Caleb is who we think he is, that wouldnt be enough.

I think Daniels has a lot of physical tools, and throws a great ball, but doesnt read defenses. I predict that he will be a massive bust in the NFL, kind of like how Justin ended up. So at least I'm on the record, and we can see what happens.

for sure.

theyre definitely doing their due diligence at least