BearFan PHX

I think that at this point it's kind of obvious to us, to the rest of the league etc. He didnt name WRs or Oline or even which DL he likes, so hes not giving away too much, but at this point, it's all pretty clear what the scenarios are.

for sure, it comes down to who falls, what our grades are on various guys and what people are offering.

well said, and i agree. If Williams comes here and sucks, I will be among the first to say we need to move on from him. This isnt some player love - it's just the guy is a monster on film. I have noticed that the same people who are going so hard after Williams were the ones who were in love with Justin long after it was obvious that he wasnt a starter quality player. I think it's all emotional - and it's too bad too, because this guy could well be the best QB the Bears have ever had, and all some people can think to do is tear him down. It's crazy.

Justin wasn't hunting bigger plays, he was unable to see it and pull the trigger in time. Williams is a whole other animal from Fields. Mahomes makes off angle throws too, but it's not as if Williams (or Mahomes) does that unless he has pressure. When he has a clean pocket, Williams' delivery is as clean as anyones ever. His throwing motion is impeccable.

well at the time, I think people misread me and thought I was acting like I'm such a tough alpha that I looked down on men hugging each other. And here now you're calling out a kid's toughness who has undoubtedly worked harder and given more to his craft than any of us could imagine. I just think it's stupid. It's playground bully logic (not saying you are one!) and if he was exhausted and crushed that he couldn't make his dream real no matter how hard he played - the guy put up 42 points and still couldnt win. I want someone who cares that much. And I dont think he is soft at all. I think he is a champion in the making. He isnt soft and entitled - he just wants it SO bad. Mike Ditka broke his hand once punching a hole through a chalkboard because he was angry his offensive line wouldnt open a hole there in that play. We are so freakin lucky to have this guy, and all we can do is complain. I dont think it's Caleb that's entitled.

well Brady cried when he saw his dad at the Superbowl? Maybe now that the tables have turned you can see that I wasn't saying Poles was a pussy for hugging Fields, but just getting too close to be impartial. I love coaches hugging players. I think this is nonsense. The guy has a heart and he cares. He's gonna come here and kick ass like no Bears QB ever, and then we can see if he is tough or a baby. I dont think you're gonna question his toughness after you see him play in blue and orange.

Here's a few crying heroes from that list (crying in sports not in life): Mike Tyson https://www.sportscasting.com/why-mike-tyson-cried-before-every-fight-of-his-illustrious-career/ Deion Sanders TOm Brady crying about where he was drafted Walter Payton cried when he wasnt drafted higher https://www.cnn.com/2011/10/31/opinion/pearlman-walter-payton/index.html Im sure there are more examples too, but a quick google made the point i think?

Payton cried that he didnt get a TD in the superbowl. Sometimes when people care a lot, they get emotional when they are physically exhausted and come up short having given it all on the field?

yes and with a talent like that, if you're thinking you DONT need a 3rd TE, you still want to kick the tires and see if hes SO good you cant pass him anyway too Plus with all these guys, its not just drafting them, but building their file for trades and free agency in a few years too

for sure

like i said, I can say Im not put off by his character, but i cant say what youre talking about in that isnt real. I can make guesses about how it might play out, but they are just opinions. But based only on the tape, he really is special, no?

it seems a fair comparison, although I wouldnt be shocked if Washington took Maye either. I'd meet you and shake your hand for sure. I don't usually drink and then drive, even though everyone I know seems to do it well, maybe because even though I've been driving since I was 16, I never owned a car in NYC and rarely drove except on vacation and visiting family back in Chicago, so when I got to Arizona, I didnt usually have drinks with dinner if i was driving. When my friend drives and we go to bars, then I am good for many whiskey shots for sure.

I cant say you guys are wrong about the character questions, we each have our opinions, but you guys look at Williams' tape and you really don't see it? Not highlight (or lowlight) reels but game footage? I'd be less surprised if someone said they didnt see the film, and were saying this - then of course, because there is so much on the web all over the place. But did you guys actually watch breakdown tape and come away thinking Williams wasnt head and shoulders above the other guys?

AZ54, cool - so a gentleman's bet? You're on record saying you'd take Daniels over Williams, and I'm the opposite. Let's see how they do the first year, then after year 2 and year 3, and see which prediction worked out?

I think it depends what youre measuring. As an athlete, he isn't superman. He's got amazing off platform throws and makes incredible plays, but so does Jayden Daniels and so does Justin Fields. What makes Caleb get described as "generational" is due to a few things. The first is his pocket presence. He moves around in the pocket in a circular way to not only avoid a rush, but actually put the offensive lineman who got beat back between him and the defender. That's why he was able to hold the ball so long when he was looking deep. That looks like Aaron Rodgers. His release is elite. His compact arm movement is incredibly efficient. His wrist doesn't go far from his ear, and the ball is out faster than almost anyone I've ever seen. Dan Marino is the comp for this particular skill. It means the time between deciding to throw the ball, and the ball being out is impressively fast. He doesn't pat the ball, he doesn't wind up, or heave the ball. It comes out like a laser right from the shoulder. He reads defenses. Caleb seems to fully understand the purpose of the routes. He has good pre snap reads, and gets through his progressions quickly. He is often getting the ball out in tempo to third and fourth read receivers. I think people get too caught up in physical traits, and don't value this trait enough. It's what makes Williams a much much better bet to succeed in the NFL than Jayden Daniels. Williams is already processing like an NFL quarterback. Daniels looks like Fields in this regard. He throws every route. He and Maye have the strongest arms in the draft (except for Joe Milton). He can throw an out or speed route across the field from the opposite (wider) college hash on a rope. The ball beats defenders to small windows. He makes magic happen when the play breaks down. He looks a lot like Fields and Daniels when the play breaks. He has all the same Mahomes-ian moves and eye opening throws, and makes first downs where others can't. Hes not quite as fast as Fields or elusive in the open field, but even the Bears made Justin stop doing that after 2022, and taught him to slide rather than put moves on defenders in the open field, and Williams is plenty fast and elusive enough to scramble for first downs. He is a leader. He's the kind of athlete that takes a team on his back and makes things happen on a day when it wasnt going well. He played too much long ball hunting in games where he had to score 40+ points to stay in it, but in the NFL he will have a defense, and I think he will be able to dial that back. But when you need it in a big game, it's a great skill to have. Hes got components of Marino, Rodgers, Favre and Mahomes to his game. That's why they call him generational. That's why it isn't silly to think that he will be a Hall of Famer, and a #1 draft pick. And he hasnt had a snap in the NFL no less made his rookie mistakes yet. Hes not generational in the NFL. Hes just a generational prospect. He is as pro ready as anyone I've seen in many years. And that's why theyre saying that.

so a few thing. 1) Caleb doesnt have an agent because after interviewing agents, they all told him there was nothing they could do to better his deal since it was slotted. Why give a % away to an agent now? You can get one before your next contract negotiation. 2) I think you, and Caleb have found a loophole in the agreement. I totally agree that you should have to take the physical, unless there is some law that deems it must be voluntary, I would expect the NFL to close that loophole fast, and I would applaud that move too. If there was a rule currently, some reporter would have said it, and Caleb would have been forced to do it by the teams. But i agree with you on this one about how it ought to be. 3) Having arrogant confidence does not guarantee success. It is a trait shared by GOATs and busts. No doubt. I'm just saying if Caleb is who he says he is going to be, then this is all about his own belief, which is very powerful in getting him there. But by no means am I saying it proves he will become that. Only time can see that, I fully agree. But I like his competitive spirit - it's why I wanted Harbaugh, so I have no problem with it. But of course it is all predicated on becoming a monster within a couple (or a few) years. If he doesnt, then he's a whiny loser, and no one will give him a second chance. So he is betting big on himself. And Im here for it. I hope he is that guy. I really do.

The NFL is a business. If you get injured, they spit you out. If they like someone else, they trade you or cut you. You're a piece of meat to them. That's why there is a collective bargaining agreement, and a union. That's why there are agents. Does anyone think teams go easy on agents? or that agents go easy on teams? Of course not. These teams are multi billion dollar businesses and everyone is competing for money and wins. If Caleb thinks he's special, and his price tag shows he's special, then great. No one is making anyone draft him, but they want to, so he should get as much as he can, just as teams should give as little as they can. And is Caleb special? Yes it seems that he is. It's OK for him to know it, and to reach for the stars. So Calebs father met with agents to see if they could find a way to get him more highly paid than the slotted salary. They told him there was no way to do that. OK. Same with team ownership. When you have the hot hand in sports or Hollywood, you play it, because tomorrow you can be cast aside. I dont blame them for asking. I havent heard anything from Caleb about sitting out. I heard Calebs father complain about how the draft order allocates the best players to the worst teams. He said that before we fired Getsy. He said that before we had Keenan Allen. He probably said that before he realized that Chicago had the first pick by trade and not having a 3 win season. I think those videos are cherry picked, and deceptively edited out of context and time. I do sense a kind of nervousness or arrogance in Caleb. It's a lot to put on a young man's shoulders. I can feel that But the dress wearing, the nail painting all that - it's silliness. The guy can play at a really high level or he can't. Surely Williams isn't leaving room for a beloved backup's career if it all goes poorly. He's not going to win the most humble guy in the league award. But so what? He's got no backup plan but greatness. He says he wants to be "immortal" in NFL history. Shouldnt we WANT that? Jordan was like this too. So was Brady, and even Sweetness. Deion Sanders, Dennis Rodman, Joe Namath, Jim McMahon, Kobe Bryant, Muhammad Ali, Mike Tyson, Ray Lewis - and there are more examples of brash overcompetitive legends. I agree that if WIlliams doesnt grow into an NFL monster within a few years, this will all age very poorly on him. It's a risk. But it's also evidence of him being highly internally motivated. He is the opposite of Jay Cutler. He is in it to kick EVERYONES ass. He cares! He cried when he couldnt win without a team around him. I like it, and if he can back it up, then I LOVE it. Dont you all remember the arrogance of the 85 defense? They released a song called Superbowl shuffle in week 11! It's just been so long. Dont be afraid of greatness! Dont be afraid of having a player who IS special. And if he makes waves and pulls overly conservative coaches kicking and screaming into superbowl wins, then he's the guy we've been waiting for. I thought that identity would come with a new head coach like Harbaugh. But it can be the QB. He can lead from that position too.

I'm with you. I didn't understand why Foreman wasn't the #1 last year, and I have Johnson ahead of Herbert too. That means Herbert probably has little trade value. I also think depending on how our O line shakes out, that we could be a good running team this year. Johnson and Swift pack a good 1-2 combination, and if you say top 5, I don't necessarily argue with that. But because we agree that Herbert has little trade value, I suppose that means our RB room ranking would be what it is with or without Herbert. And Herbert doesnt suck. He is serviceable, and probably one of the best #3s in the league. Because he is probably a #2 somewhere? And maybe that means he is worth something in trade. Maybe we add Herbert to a couple next years' seconds to go from 9 to 5 to grab a falling Marvin Harrison Jr in a 4 QBs picked first draft scenario? A lot hinges on what New England and Arizona do at #3 and #4. I Daniels falls to 4, or someone believes in McCarthy at 4, Arizona might trade out, and Harrison is there at 5.

I still think Roschon has a good chance to be the starter by the end of the season. But having both, in whichever order, is gonna be great. Herbert on the trading block?

great way to look at it. hadnt thought of that before or seen that anywhere else.

Oh youre right on both accounts. First, medicals are not going to lose the job, I just meant that without them he's 100% pick #1, and with them, there is the scant possibility of something screwing it up. That's all, overcautious, not functionally a real issue at all. And also I agree that if you dont deliver, then that arrogance wears thin REALLY fast, so you HAVE to back it up, but if he does, Im cool with it.

right, because you are looking 2 years out, which i think is the right way to do this.

I think this is all right on. Some people like Fashanu better. Some people like Turner better. For sure one of the five you just listed, or their alternates I just named (if they are preferred) will be there at #9. We are in such a good position.

and while in college, your primary receiver is usually open, in the NFL you have to read defenses more. This is where Williams shines over Daniels for me. If you cant look off a safety and play in structure all the talent in the world wont help you in the NFL. We should have learned that lesson by now after Trubisky and Fields.

Sure, but hes got that gig already wrapped up, so the only change that could happen, no matter how unlikely, is that he'd lose that job. So he's playing it safe, and flexing at the same time. i think most players would just go along with things and not make waves, but there is a logical reason for Caleb not to do it, just as he will pay a price in the press and public opinion for this decision too. When Payton was signed by the Bears he said "I'm going to make you forget all about Gale Sayers", 6th round draft Pick Tom Brady found Robgert Kraft on the field the first day and told him "I'm going to be the best draft pick you ever took" - sometimes real leaders are abrasive and arrogant and single-minded in the pursuit of greatness. Caleb has described his NFL goals saying "I want to be immortal" - the kind of GOAT greatness historical fame that everyone remembers. Im not mad at that. I dont need "golly gee Im just here to work and improve one day at a time" - I love the fire and confidence. But of course if he doesnt back it up he will be a bum, but if he does, he may drag the entire organization across the finish line, even as they may resist what it takes to win. He might be the kind of guy to call his own more aggressive play in the huddle and ignore the actual play call, and if hes right and hits it, then he's a hero. Jim Mcmahon famously threw that bomb of a pass to Willie Gault against the Vikings on MNF, coming off the bench to light the fuse on the 85 Bears. The play call was a screen to Payton. Gault's route was a clearout and he was not a viable receiver on the play. Was Mcmahon wrong to break the mold and reach for greatness? When he wore the headband with the Commissioners name on it mocking him, that wasnt humble. It wasnt being a good team player. It was an arrogant SOB taking his destiny. Let's not be afraid of greatness and praise humility as the only path. I'd rather win superbowls than sing kumbaya.