BearFan PHX

yeah all good points, and they go to the question of who you think Williams will be. i sure dont have an answer to that question, but if I dont think he's gonna be a HOFer, then the trade is an easy option. But if he is one of those rare QBs, he's worth 6 or 8 first rounders. And i wish to hell I knew which he is gonna be.

Dude, Im not beefing with him, he was scolding me yesterday saying that the only reason I feel like i do about Justin is that Im a hater and have it out for Justin. And we had very nice interactions at the same minutes on other threads. Im not looking to antagonize him at all. And it didnt make me "mad," but it was an ad hoc attack, so i said so, just to rebut the point, not because my honor was offended or anything weird like that. Then today hes all "oh the fighting" and i thought that was hypocritical, since he was just doing it yesterday. Fighting passive aggressively is still fighting. And I want it to stop as much as you do! What you dont know is I wrote a really nice letter to him a couple weeks ago. He read it, but didnt respond. And hes been saying whatever about me since. So I dunno, hes mad at me, and being passive aggressive about it. I always got along well with him here too - at least 15 years. probably a lot more, from the old site. Its all because Im TOO sure of myself about Justin Fields. It's offending people obviously. But that's crap. I'm not trying to talk about anything except criticisms of where we disagree about football. And it all comes because he didnt like what happened with Stinger. Ok I get that. I still would have done what I did. But I'm not trying to keep any of this alive. Once we get past Fields, Im not even sure of anything. Nothing I write on any it is so sure of myself or anything. No one can predict what will happen with the rookie QBs. I'll tell ya what. I wont comment back about any personal comments for 24 hours. Ill talk about football, but ill give anyone that needs to say whatever nasty thing they want to about me 24 hours to do it and I wont ever respond to anything they say during that time. I'll give everyone the last word. And then, please lets get back to just critiquing me on film or stats or whatever.

One other point to help explain. I am not sitting here angry thinking people are attacking me. I am debating football, and people make arguments, and some of the arguments are pointed at my character, and Im not mad about THAT either! Im just saying, that's not a good argument, and not why Fields sucks. Im not feeling attacked and fighting - Im just saying "thats a bad argument" and "thats an adhoc attack so its not a good argument" thats all Im not like seething that anyone would say that i hate Justin, Im just saying thats not a good argument.

Thanks. He attacked me yesterday, not today. Today he was saying that he didnt like the fighting, which i thought was hypocrticial since he was part of it yesterday. But I dont think I need a timeout. I think we should ALL just keep our comments to football. Specifically, that I dont hate Justin, or have a personality flaw that is the reason why I think we have to move on from him. If people stopped saying that, then I wouldnt have to keep saying i dont hate Justin, and Im not attacking him. I also think it depends on the tone of voice you read the writing in. if you read it angry it will sound that way, but Im not angry. Read it more rolling of eyes, and then youll hear what Im actually saying here?

I dont think Maye's experience or coaching is anything like Trubisky's. By all accounts he's a really good prospect. There is some narrative that he lacks some spark of leadership or momentum in the game in clutch moments. I dont know if that narrative is true. Im looking forward to all the pre draft film on youtube. But Maye is Maye, whoever that is, and i wouldnt worry about the Trubisky comparisons. He[s just got his own stuff to like and wonder about?

it all depends on who you think Caleb can be for the Bears I guess. You're not wrong that trading down and gaining a package like that would be franchise altering. And you could trade it down again too and it starts to look like Madden or the draft sites how silly it gets except in this case, it's actually real. So there is a great argument for what you're saying. Assuming you think really well of one of the other QBs. But if you really believe Caleb could be a Hall of Fame QB and win multiple superbowls, then it's worth the price. But who knows? I guess you try to put a percentage on it, and weigh the options. This is a defining moment for the next decade+ of the Bears, and it's a really difficult question to answer. I guess the best thing to say is all the options don't suck, so we're sitting pretty no matter which way it goes.

It might be insane, and the report might be reaching too because Washington hasnt done anything yet BUT there are teams dumb enough to trade multiple first rounders away. We used to be one of them! I am secretly hoping that when I see the predraft film, that I start to believe that there is more than one tier 1 QB in this draft. If we could trade the #1 pick down, and grab a great QB at 2, 3 or even 9 then the legend of the Carolina trade would continue to grow like a weed. That would be amazing! Imagine having 2 picks in the first round in 2025 and 2026. All for passing on Bryce Young. BUT if on the other hand, I come out of it thinking that Caleb is the next big thing, then Im gonna be thrilled the Bears will finally have that guy at QB. Either way, that has to be the mission this year - get that QB who can take you to the promised land. Everything else is icing, but dang there sure is a lot of it on the potential table isnt there?

There is an article in the Tribune today that says we could trade one spot with Washington, and get two more first round picks in exchange. We give a little more too, and we get a little more too. I think if the Bears identify another QB they prefer, or they think Caleb isn't gonna pan out, this is a great way to address all the arguments wanting more picks, without having to pass on taking a top pick rookie QB. If on the other hand, your scouts are telling you that Williams is the real deal, and head an shoulders above the others, then it's probably not enough. I do think it's telling that if Washington was willing to do that, they'd be saying they DO think Williams is worth that price. Anyway, its too early for me to have an opinion on Williams, but it was interesting to see what is thought to be offered, while still being able to take a top QB too? https://www.nbcsportschicago.com/nfl/chicago-bears/bears-mock-draft-poles-passes-on-caleb-williams-trades-no-1-pick/537419/

All Im saying is you alternate between complaining about the fighting, and then yesterday, being a full participant. Then today youre the voice of reason above again. And its ALL silly. All we have to do is talk about football. I respond, but Im not out there making purely personal posts. I mostly talk about film, and Justin's shortcomings etc. Then when someone like Stinger says some personal nonsense, then i expose the illogic in the arguments. I would call that debating. Go read the posts. I mostly say stuff is stupid when i think it is. Im not calling people names out of the blue. Im either talking football or saying that arguments are illogical, or saying "dont be personal" And Im done pretending otherwise. If ANYone has a disagreement with me, thats awesome fun. I love debating. No one here has to pull any punches about how they disagree with me about football. That never upsets me. But when you start trying to discredit some fact Ive posted based on "Im just a hater" or some other thing that isnt about xcoverages, or film, or Justin's timing, but about my personal psychology - well its ridiculous. And I think Im being misunderstood here too - Im not "mad" steam isnt pouring out of my ears when i type these things. Read them again with more of a tone of "ugh this is SO dumb bleh" and youll hear it the way Im writing it. I may be frustrated, but Im not angry. Not at all. I think you might be mistaking me destroying moronic arguments about Fields for being mean. Im not mean. Im just winning on that subject too much. So please, bring whatever football facts, corrections etc. None of that makes me mad. The only thing that would make me mad was if we brought back Justin and didnt draft a rookie QB. Then Id be mad. And not at anyone here. P.S. I have no dogmatic ideas about any other QB candidates. After I've done my work I might have a favorite, or many favorites. I might think someone sucks. But I wont have 3 years of NFL tape on them. I will know that I dont KNOW anything about who will do what in the NFL. It's just Justin. We're so far past the decision point, and the people who dont see it cant understnad why the people that do are SO over it. It aint ego - it's a year too late already. The experiment has been over for a while. Its CRAZY.

Lets just move on to choosing Justins replacement. That is nothing but opinion, and no one has 3 years of failed NFL tape to be sure about anything. Im sure not sure about any of the prospects in this draft. We could just talk about it like men.

OK. I think complaining about people disagreeing about JF is squabbling too. YOu keep acting like because we dont share your view, that we must be jerks and were fighting. Dude, its YOU thats fighting everytime you say that. Yesterday you posted a whole thing about how Im closed minded and just hate Justin and that's what motivates me. I KNOW JF is a bust. That's not rude or mean. Stop trying to pretend it is. I've had it with the personal attacks. Im not gonna just sit by while you act like youre the teacher and anyone that disagrees with you is some kind of baby that needs a scolding. Cut it out. Stinger does nothing but personally attack people. That I actually fought back is your problem. Im not the only one he does this to either and you know it. And since you keep jumping into it, youre one of the participants, not the referee. So stop pretending youre the good guy. Justin Fields doesnt need anyone here to protect his feelings. This is sports talk.It's perfectly fine to say that he is a bust. I write long specific posts about facts and theories about FOOTBALL, you choose not to read them because you say they are too long, and then pretend that it's just fighting. Stop it. For example, this post wouldnt even exist if you hadn't brought it up. That was your choice. Either dont do it, or dont be surprised if it gets an answer. Sheesh. This whole Justin Fields thing has gotten insane. And not just here, but all across the internet. Justin fans are just SO butthurt their guy didnt pan out. Well he didnt. Deal with it. Its not OUR fault that he didnt develop. Were not bad people because he didnt. Learn how to lose an argument with grace would ya?

I saw a lot of open receivers on the all 22. I think Getsy did a pretty good job installing a modern NFL offense. I think you can possibly criticize him for not creating an offense that is tailored only to what Justin does, but then again, I dunno if that would win games in the NFL anyway. You had a QB that said he was thinking too much - in other words, he wasnt getting it. We called too many screen passes, then again, maybe that was the only way to get Fields to actually throw the ball in structure. Almost every other pass he threw was on the run, other than the scripted 15 plays at the beginning of the game where he looked like a totally different QB. So in other words, unless Justin could spend a LOT of time specifically on a play he knew was coming, he couldnt execute. Now would I have rather we kept Getsy if we are going to draft Caleb Williams? Nope. I like Waldron and his staff a lot better. But Justin was the problem. At this point, 3 years in with a ton of tape, it's fair to say. otherwise we could talk about how Trubiksy didnt have perfection around him, and he might be JUST about to turn into a hall of famer any minute now. So dumb.

and look! he uses the hug right there in the 3rd post as proof that Poles is gonna keep Justin! I was right!

right. Biggs AND Vitale AND Yahoo sports all separately report speaking to separate GROUPS of GMs and all report unanimous agreement about Fields. It's getting super silly now. This is last years narrative - "give him another year and see if maybe" we DID that. 2023 happened. We have 2 picks in the top 10. Its over. I cant predict what Poles will do, but I can say with 100% confidence that if he keeps Fields and doesnt draft a top pick rookie QB, it will be a fatal mistake to his career and the roster we are building here.

yeah, so no one here can have any opinions that disagree because Poles is in charge not anyone else! but thats not defensive or fighty at all. "screw everyone elses opinion" minutes later... "youre not respecting my opinion!" also "Other GMs opinions may count but most she talks to carries no weight." how do you know? you dont know who she talked to. Other GMs opinions may count but not the ones she talked to? Just the ones that agree with you maybe? Im telling you the "those guys over there are mean and intolerant" crowd should look in a mirror.

No you're right. I totally misremembered. It was Carmen Vitali of FOX Sports, on Adam Rank's podcast. Linked below. Rank seems to agree too that the consensus in the NFL among professionals is to move on from Justin. And the same was said by others. It seems to be a commonly held view among GMs and personnel people in the league according to at least three different articles about three entirely different sets of conversations with multiple NFL insiders, written by three different authors. And I think a lot of people think this about Justin now too. I think theres a lot of confusing fan noise and fan opinion around this that obscures the cold truth, because Fields is so exciting to watch and he is very likeable, but if you look at his production as a QB within structure, it just isn't there. And the pros will see that and maybe fans dont as much because they are biased because they like him, maybe rooting for an underdog? That'd be a hell of a way to build a team though, choosing underdogs, if you wanted to actually win games.

with all luck we wont have a top ten pick again for many years!

bwahahaha that was a bad move! Everyone knows Skip is always wrong!

awesome - that aligns well with a rookie QB season, and then next year he can be challenged harder as the schedule gets tougher - and hopefully we get a QB forged in fire ready to lead us to multiple superbowls!!

LOL but did either of you agree that they're skip? LOL Everyone is Sharpe!

for sure. I think we are gonna add at least one major piece on the DL this offseason. COuld be at 3T, could be an edge. Could be a free agent, and could be a first round draft pick. And if we get a decent or better player at FS, we are gonna be one of the best defenses in the league.

I fear anything shorter and less detailed would be called just hating. But the fact that I posted a lot doesnt really rebut the truth of what Ive said. It's just a criticism of it being long, rather than any response to the substance of what I wrote. In another thread you want us to stop fighting, but you do keep kind of questioning my personality instead of talking about Fields dude. You havent been mean or anything, and Im not mad, but it's kind of dumb.

Thats worth more than a second round pick, I'd take it in a heartbeat.

Oh, and I know you can find opinions abut keeping Fields 50/50 on both sides. I said that NFL Professionals seem unanimous in being move on from Justin according to first hand accounts from multiple different sources and multiple different conversations by different reporters. You cant find one article from after November of 2023 where a reporter says a GM or NFL scout says to KEEP Justin. The best you'll do is a singular voice of Mel Kiper saying Fields is worth a SINGLE first round pick. If Fields had a future, youd see a lot more of those. I dont think any NFL source has suggested that Fields is worth a single first round pick. What does that tell you? Are we all blind with hatred and bad people? Or are you maybe down a rabbit hole and misjudging the motivations of people because they dont agree with YOU?

So Pix, I dont think Fields is a piece of shit. Ive said lots of good things about him. I think this is evidence of the mindset of how the keep Justin people view people that dont agree with them as being Justin haters who have some personality issue behind it. I consistently say that Justin is one of the best runners as a QB in NFL history. I say that he is a hard worker. I say that he is a leader and well liked, and likeable. And I say that he is a human highlight reel doing anything except throwing in tempo and structure of an offense. I dont say that about Trubisky, or Kyler Murray or a lot of QBs. So I dont hate Justin. I was thrilled when we drafted him. But he simply hasnt developed that missing part of his game. And that part was commonly found in every predraft writeup of Fields too. This isnt just me saying it. And it isnt because of how the Bears have handled him, becasue it was his biggest weakness coming out of college too. I did call him a turd once or twice here out of all the posts Ive made. A piece of shit is a jerk who should be hated, a turd is someone falling short of successful. Thats how I meant it anyway. He fell flat of his potential. Thats what I mean when I say hes a turd. But the place this gets personal (in general, nothing you said was bad Pix) is when you think that we move on from Justin types are thinking that way because we need to be right, or hate Justin or some other personality flaw. And I think the reason that keep Justin types are feeling that way is because they are feeling attacked by all the data that says Fields is a bust. And they really like Fields. Unlike a lot of QBs, I join you in really liking Justin Fields the person. So you may feel like a friend is being criticized or something, so naturally you think the person criticizing is a bully. Who would pick on poor Justin? Or to be rooting for the underdog. Anyone that isnt rooting for the underdog is a bully. But that's BS. I want us to be great, not just nice to an underperforming player. So youre 100% wrong about me and what motivates me. And you dont see that it's thinking THAT that brings the personal feeling to this. We arent bullies. We arent mean. We think Fields is a terrible pocket passer, and he IS. You gave a bunch of excuses for why Fields did poorly. They mostly make sense too. I agree with most if not all of them. But none of it is any evidence of Fields showing he has it in him to be great, just evidence that he was failed from outside. So if you put a 5 year old girl at QB for the Bears for 2023, you could rightly say the OL wasnt good enough and she didnt have receivers too - and it'd be true, but why should that mean that the 5 year old girl would be expected to be good next year with better protection? Shed need to show that she COULD play in structure in consistent flashes. That's the problem here, no one on the keep Justin side has shown any positive evidence of Fields making reads consistently in any part of the game other than the first scripted 15 plays. And without any evidence of that, and I dont hear you arguing that passing isnt important to winning like some others have, that leaves you in category 3 - a Justin Fields fan who is rooting for him because you like him, but without any active affirmative reasons to think he will be better as a pocket passer in structure next year. Only excuses why it wasnt his fault that he didnt. And that's why the whole world is slowly turning to the "Bears are drafting a rookie QB this year" - because the facts demand it. It's just really the only logical answer. No its Ok for you to think that's just because Im arrogant and inflexible. But it isnt. It's because Justin will never be a great pocket passer, and I have still not seen any affirmative evidence to the contrary. Only hope and excuses. So again, I ask, what did Justin show you that tells you he has it in him? Not how did others let him down? But what actually things did Justin do that show you he has this one core skill that it takes to play QB? No one has offered any. Not just here, but all over the internet. But my point is that if you start by assuming that the reason I see Justins tape is lacking is because I have some darkness or hate, then it's you thats bringing this into it, not me. It's your blindness to what the tape makes abundantly obvious that sets you up for the wrong interpretation that the move on from Justin people are hateful and mean. Im not. We're not. Justin aint a good QB. That's both an opinion and a fact, at least so far in his career. You cant show me the 4th quarter comebacks, you can only say it wasnt his fault. You cant show me the 300 yard games, you can only say it wasnt his fault. You cant show me the consistent QBing in structure, you can only say it wasnt his fault. And the fact that I see it on film isnt MY fault. Until you understand this, youre going to continue to think Im a jerk and a problem. And threaten to leave or boot me or whatever you SHOULD do to real actual bullies. But this isn't that. You're just not accepting the truth about Justin, and then blaming me for it. And like I said, the internet is FULL of this exact argument over and over with a ton of different people, and the keep Justin people are saying the same things about the move on from Justin people in all those discussions too. But this aint good v evil here, it's just youre nice, you like Justin, you wanna give the kid another chance, and we did that last year already instead of picking a QB #1. We did it with the idea that because of the Carolina trade, if Justin didnt ball out in 2023, we could draft a QB in 2024. And we did the experiment. Imperfectly perhaps, but with a true stud WR in Moore, and a first round pick to the OL. And Justin actually regressed from 2022. Justin is not the future of the Bears, and most if not all NFL people know it, and a lot of internet people know it, and it's OK if you dont like it, but it doesnt make us haters. Now you are polite about what you say Pix, I dont have a problem with what you say. But not all the Justin homers are nice about it, and when people are nasty, sometimes people are nasty back. We are all men here, and I doubt any of us would put up with nasty crap for too long. I did for a long time. Kept ignoring it because I wanted to be polite on here. But then I didnt. And if that's the evidence that I hate Justin... well i cant affect whatever youre going to think about me, but I can tell you your psychoanalysis of what drives me and most move on from Justin people is just wrong. So if you make arguments based on tape, or stats or whatever, fine. But if the latest iteration of this is that I only want to move on from Justin because I am hateful or something, well that's silly. I routinely lay out the logic of my arguments. I did here too. Disagree if you want, but Fields made up my mind for ME, not the other way around.