AZ54

... as seen on that Twitter feed: Can the Bears defensive front be referred to as HGH (Howard/Goldman/Hicks)? Anyway, I like this signing. It is hard to say how he failed KC's physical but passed ours two weeks later. That concern will stay with me until we see him in the preseason.

When SF was on the clock Pace had Cleveland on one phone trying to negotiate a trade for our #3 pick meanwhile on the other line he negotiated a trade with SF #2 pick. He had every reason to think that if we declined the trade with Cleveland that they would immediately call SF to trade up to #2 because the only logical conclusion Cleveland could make is that we wanted Trubisky.

I searched and couldn't find anything from you around draft day regarding Wentz. But yes, time offers perspective in terms of the quality of the pick.

I was on board saying we needed to draft a RB for months. Cohen is not what I had in mind. I figured we'd look for someone who could share the load better with Howard simply because Langford didn't impress me last year. If the new RB could also handle some PR/KR that would be great too. Although his skill set is a good fit for it, Cohen hasn't done the PR/KR stuff so that's an unknown. At this point he's strictly a change of pace back who can't stay in the to block. He's a very good WR so my hope is that he can learn to take some snaps as a slot WR. When we get down to the end of the roster having someone like Cohen versus either Carey (4.7 forty and can't catch well), or Daniel Braverman, then Cohen offers a lot more in the open field than either. In the past there was often the question of do we keep 4 RBs or the extra 6th WR. Cohen might be one of both which frees up a roster spot for another position group.

If I dig further on your comments regarding Wentz here is your thoughts about mining a good player from D2: Posted on: Sep 12 2016, 06:01 PM To be honest, it looks like Connor Shaw might be worth holding onto and seeing what he could offer. Kid looked pretty solid in the preseason. After relative no-names Wentz and Goff go 1-2 this year I'm fairly confident our team can mine a good player maybe even from D2. And don't get me started on our passing on Dak Prescott. (Scarily, this is something it sounds like Jason and I oddly agree on).

I actually was doing a search last night for my posts regarding Wentz and of course couldn't find the one I was looking for. I did see a comment from you regarding this but it wasn't last year. I'm just pointing out how quickly things change, even among our own perspectives. Posted on: Feb 18 2017, 09:14 PM Key back up ******* Group: Super Fans Posts: 3,903 Joined: December 12, 2007 From: Alaska Member No.: 2,639 One thing to consider is that neither Wentz or Prescott were rated very high going this late into the offseason last year. Yet Prescott proved he was probably rated higher than the 4th round he was picked in. And although not earth shattering, Wentz looked legit as the #2 overall. Just goes to show that you might not be able to nail down where these guys rate overall. For the record, I'm still a Watson guy. He's got more to offer than just field performance. Intangibles I believe they call 'em.

Long is not healthy. He lost a ton of weight down to 265lbs after an infection or some complication from his ankle surgery. He just reported that he's back to 310 lbs but wants to get back to 325lbs. I fully expect he'll be getting days off during training camp and a light to non-existent workload during preseason games. http://www.espn.com/blog/chicago-bears/pos...ty-ankle-injury

I've been saying that for some time. Philly gave up much more than we did to get that QB after spending big money in FA. Wentz was originally considered a 2nd Rd pick and he flew up the draft boards after the combine, usually that's a concern. I scanned back through the posts during the run up to this draft and see where Alaska Grizzly was supportive of the Wentz deal even though he had similar numbers as Trubisky against lesser competition. What changed? I really like a lot of what Trubisky brings to the field. I look forward to seeing him play here in Arizona during the preseason.

No "franchise QBs". It's not often one comes around, maybe once every 4 or 5 years. Even then Andrew Luck and Robert Griffen had a 50% success rate. When they do show up you better make sure you have the 1st overall pick. http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?type=position

If we didn't do what we did we wouldn't have Trubisky. http://bearswire.usatoday.com/2017/05/01/e...e-for-trubisky/ If he was the QB you liked in this draft (I did) then it's a mute point because IMO if he's the one then you do what you have to in order to get him. What we know now based on that Cleveland team that "schooled us" on how and who to draft is that they absolutely wanted Trubisky and were ready to trade with us to get #3 and take him. When SF was on the clock, Pace was on the phone with Cleveland who wanted to trade up. Pace had every reason to think if he didn't trade back with them then Cleveland could readily assume that... A) It was likely Trubisky was our target. This was a draft deep in defensive talent and if Pace's goal was to stick with Glennon and gather as much talent as he could in the draft then a trade back made a lot of sense for Chicago. It's what everyone was expecting after we signed Glennon. B ) Cleveland would then know they have to make a trade with the 49ers. Pace already knew how much they were willing to give up for #3 so he knew they were all in. As soon as Chicago says we're not interested in trading out of our spot until we see who is on the board then Cleveland hangs up and calls SF. The School Master showed Pace their hand and Pace took full advantage of it. As soon as Cleveland saw we made the trade with the 49ers they knew screwed up. It is also a fact the School Master didn't like either Watson or Mahomes, at least not enough to trade up as they were trying to do for Trubisky. Actually, they didn't want Watson at all because they traded away from him at #12. Nor did they think much of Kizer since they took two other players before they felt he was worth a pick. The bottom line is the School Master had a similar draft grade on Trubisky as we did and were equally willing to go up as far as needed to get him. We'll wait to see if Trubisky is worth it but for the way Pace managed this draft deal to get his player, including all the smoke screens in advance, he gets an A plus. He had to keep Cleveland from taking Trubisky #1 overall, which meant Pace couldn't trade up to #2 in advance of the draft, and he had to keep Cleveland from trading up to #2 before SF was on the clock. That may have included an $18mil dollar smoke screen by the name of Mike Glennon, although I think having Glennon in place to help us win now was always part of the plan.

I figure it just means he knows the system and can come in and help throughout camp. I'm sure his phone was quiet and he was getting nervous after the draft.

From what I can find on these players Rashaad Coward NT: Meh not strong enough to be a NT, not enough length to be DE. He has good movement skills if he can add strength maybe he'll get a shot. I don't think he makes the practice squad Dieugot Joseph OL: We might have something here. He looks to have the raw skills needed for the position. A year or two on the practice squad and we'll see. Tanner Gentry WR: I see him as having skills similar to Bellamy, less athletic but with better hands (that's a low bar). He might compete for a spot on the practice squad but he's not very quick in his cuts and at the NFL level that's a problem. Freddie Stevenson FB: He has a shot to make the final roster if he can improve some things. He's more versatile than you might expect with his ability to run and catch. He always blocks high and at the NFL level he'll get blown up by LBs if he doesn't improve that. He seems disinterested on the field at times, somewhat going through the motions. It'll be interesting to see how he does in training camp. Franko House TE: Great name for a football player, or as a wise guy, not so great skills. Joel Bouagnon, RB: Average skills but he's a good football player. Watch his game against Ohio State in 2015. He's going against a lot of NFL players on their defense and he played well overall. http://draftbreakdown.com/video/joel-bouag...hio-state-2015/ Mitchell Kirsh, OT: Love this pickup. If you like seeing players get tossed off the screen (literally), or seeing pancake blocks then watch his highlights. Reportedly the Bears want to move him inside but it seems to me he moves well enough to stay at RT. https://sports.yahoo.com/news/kirsch-signs-...-001611214.html Jhajuan Seales, WR: I like this kid, more athletic than Gentry, and it seems to me he was worthy of a day 3 pick. Which makes me wonder why he's a UDFA. He only had 37 rec last year but with 615yds. All I can find are highlights so there's no way to know what the low lights are (i.e. too many drops, bad routes), or if there are character or injury concerns. If he can grasp the playbook and handle special teams coverages I could see him challenge for a final roster spot. That's probably a big ask but he should have a good shot at the practice squad. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-jJXH-Xd-s Kicker? meh Desean Smith, TE can't find anything Mark Spelman (OL) At 280lbs he needs a lot of work to play in the NFL. He plays with a aggressive attitude and has good movement, just don't see it happening. ------------------------------------------------------ Among this group I really like Seales and Kirsh, followed by Bouagnon, Stevenson, and then maybe Dieugot as a long term prospect. We signed two guys named Mitchell in one offseason?

I didn't like the fact we traded up last year to get Floyd, and I was wrong. This year I liked Trubisky a lot and wanted him to fall to us at #3. Then all the draft experts leading into draft said he's not worth it and after signing Glennon it seemed clear Pace agreed and we'd go elsewhere in Rd 1. Many draft pundits last year waxed poetically about Goff and how he was worthy of the #1 overall pick. I didn't like him there because he goes into Rex Grossman mode when he's under pressure. This is the Rams grade last year: ------------ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/...m=.cc4fcc76db24 Los Angeles Rams After taking QB Jared Goff first overall, the Rams didn’t pick again until Day 3. No matter. Quality will trump quantity if Goff becomes the franchise QB that the Rams hope he will be. They simply had to have a productive QB, with other pieces to a contending team already in place. And they did what they had to do, via their mega-trade with the Titans before the draft, to give themselves a chance to get one. Now all they can do is hope that it works out. Grade: A- ----------------- On the flip side was the Carson Wentz story. He was a 2nd Rd grade then as the process wore on he moved into the 1st Rd. The Eagles, after spending a ton of money on QBs in the offseason, traded the farm to move up to #2 and take him. Their grade: ----------------- Philadelphia Eagles If Carson Wentz becomes a future star, this will be a memorably great draft for the Eagles. For now, they seem to have created a QB issue for themselves by re-signing Sam Bradford to a significant contract and trading up to draft Wentz in the same offseason. One or the other probably would have sufficed, along with the free agent addition of Chase Daniel. It will be interesting to see if there is an immediate role for third-round G Isaac Seumalo or fifth-round RB Wendell Smallwood. Grade: C- ----------------- 4 weeks into the season those grades, had they been issued again, were completely flipped. Keep in mind at the time they traded up the Eagles were content with either Goff or Wentz they just wanted one or the other. IMO for the recent drafts prior to 2017 finding a QB has been paramount and teams were not criticized as heavily for taking them early, even if their grade didn't warrant it. This year that story changed. Look at Mayock's criticisms of Goff: http://www.nfl.com/draft/2016/profiles/jared-goff?id=2555334 WEAKNESSES Hits a rough patch with accuracy from time to time. Sails throws over intended targets especially early in games. Has spots where he makes receivers work too hard on easy throws. Spent 99.8 percent of his pass snaps from pistol or shotgun this season. Will likely need to orient himself with NFL footwork from under center. Rhythm passer who benefited from the up­tempo and "quick game" of Cal's Bear Raid offense. Has to learn fine line between getting ball out and rushing throws. Able to escape pocket, but isn't a proven finisher when on the move. Fumbled the ball 24 times over the last three years losing 11. Sacked 81 times over three years. Internal clock and poise will need to be monitored closely. Several of his interceptions came when he failed to read zone defenders underneath drifting up to challenge the throw. Wouldn't that scare you away from taking him #1 overall? Then there is Trubisky's weaknesses which are nearly identical: http://www.nfl.com/draft/2017/profiles/mit...isky?id=2558008 WEAKNESSES Almost 98 percent of his dropbacks came from shotgun. Will have to learn NFL footwork from under center which could take time. Benefits from offense loaded with RPOs (run-pass option) that pull linebackers forward and open easier throwing windows. Played in space-based passing attack that didn't often ask him to throw to tight windows in traffic. Arm slot will drop way down causing batted balls at line of scrimmage. Too willing to float balls rather than air-mailing them out of bounds when he's making a bail-out throw against pressure. Needs better drive accuracy between the hashes. Has a tendency to leave throws in hip pocket of moving targets. Inconsistent deep ball touch. Has touchdown opportunities he babies and invites defenders time to recover. Not always pocket aware. Hyper-focuses on shifting parts down the field and can be late to feel pressure collapsing the edges. -------------------------------- Trubisky is a hell of a lot better on the move than Goff, both running and throwing while running. Most importantly to me is how much better he handles the pressure around the pocket. He has things he can improve upon there but much of this pocket presence is innate. You either have it or you don't and the rest, such as reading defenses, can be learned. Watch the first two minutes of the Stanford game. http://draftbreakdown.com/video/mitch-trub...-stanford-2016/ I get the fact Trubisky needs to sit and learn but it's that way with almost any QB these days, unless you felt Bridgewater's rookie season was a great one. If you think Dak Prescott was great last year go back and watch the tape. He has plenty of things to work on. I applaud Pace for having a plan in place to allow his rookie to not feel the pressure of being a starter on day 1. The Eagles did the same thing last year and things absolutely worked out great when the Vikings came calling and gave them a 1st Rd pick for Bradford. I don't expect that, and neither did the Eagles. It's pretty clear they were fine going into the season with Bradford as the starter. I'm fine with Glennon taking the reigns this year and letting him compete with Trubisky next year. As near as I can tell, whichever way the winds blow that year is what the puppets will repeat. Goff failed last year, ( i.e. draft analysts were all wrong) so no way should you take an air raid QB early this year. Luck and Griffen had excellent rookie seasons (draft analysts were right). Put both in the Hall of Fame and it's ok to go after your QB early. Cleveland listened to the pundits and sat back and lost their QB. Pace might fail with Trubisky but he won't fail for lack of a plan. If he succeeds with Trubisky in the next couple years expect to hear analysts talking about how this is the ideal setup for teams drafting QBs early. Fail or succeed we'll define what the pundits are saying in two years. We should consider KC as using the same strategy (bridge QB in place, spend big to get your future QB). Walter Football gave them a C+ for selling the farm to take the far riskier (IMO) Mahomes. But you know what, he can throw the football over 70 yards.

I don't think Whitehair has the length to succeed outside in the NFL. Could he be better than Leno? Maybe but I prefer not to mess with success. Sitton was ok last year and looked good compared to what we had the year prior. When he was out I didn't see a huge dropoff when Kush was on the field. (Larsen is a different story). I'm not sure how much longer we'll be paying Sitton $7mil/yr. In photos I saw recently he appeared to be in better shape than last year so we'll see in training camp. It is odd to say this but for the first time in the existence of this message board I think we have good depth on the interior Oline. Sitton/Whitehair/Long backups Kush/Grasu/Morgan. I still like Edison's potential to develop into a good player. I'm thinking when the final roster is setup we'll be using one of Whitehair, Long, or Morgan as our backup OT. Whoever goes out there will get to know Adam Shaheen pretty good. We do have plenty of cap space available so if there is a surprise cut at OT we can take advantage of it like we did with Sitton last year.

I agree, with his hands and speed you don't ever keep him in to block. Make the D choose coverage or pass rush. FWIW as we look toward the future when plays break down Trubisky is very good outside the pocket at keeping his eyes downfield, and he can throw accurately on the run. Putting a player like Cohen out there in space in that scenario and I can see some big plays.

If he can return punts I really like this pick. If he can't then it takes the grade down one level. He's good as a complimentary back but as I said back in Dec he offers zero in pass protection. That's ok, as there is zero reason to even try to have him in to block. If you don't hand it off to him just send him on a route so defenses know they must cover him, or I supposed they can leave him open and blitz. His hands are pretty good and he's quick enough to make the first defender miss so if the blitz doesn't get home you might be watching him run a long way. Between Cunningham and Cohen we might as well cut Carey now.

After watching him for a bit I like Jordan Morgan. He's a good athlete and he likes to bury people when he's blocking them. Seems like a worthy late round pick.

With his size and athleticism putting Shaheen next to either Massie or Leno is going to make it tough for any pass rusher to get through. Of course he has a lot to learn with blocking at the NFL level but forcing someone to either get around him or move through a double team block won't come easy. Knowing the weaknesses of our OTs and the lack of OT talent in this draft this is like drafting a LT-lite. He also has good enough feet to get out to the 2nd and 3rd levels as a blocker. I really like what this can do for our running game this year while we work on developing a passing game over the next couple seasons. Over time Shaheen will be significant part of that too.

It's interesting that everyone always cites the David Carr situation for why teams shouldn't take a QB before the team is rebuilt. I lived in Dallas when Aikman was taken and enjoyed watching them lose 15 games that year. Yes, I enjoyed that. What was in place when Indianapolis selected Peyton Manning 1st overall?

No, we need him to win some games (hopefully) this season.

You are actually making the other point because you have already forgotten all that Seattle gave up to find a QB: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Whitehurst Seattle Seahawks[edit] Whitehurst was traded to the Seattle Seahawks on March 17, 2010, in exchange for a 2011 third-round draft pick to San Diego, and the two teams switched second-round picks in the 2010 NFL draft. He was signed to a two-year, $8 million contract. Seattle's front office later stated they had already picked up a potential franchise quarterback in the draft by acquiring Whitehurst with the 2011 pick.[10] A year later they did this: http://archive.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/143215686.html A day after Flynn made a visit to the Miami Dolphins, Seattle closed the deal with Flynn Sunday afternoon, agreeng to terms on a three-year deal that a source with direct knowledge of the deal said is worth $19 million with about $10 million guaranteed. There will be opportunities for Flynn to make as much as $24 million. Then they tripled down on their bet and selected Wilson with a 3rd Rd pick right after signing Flynn to that huge contract. They didn't care they were throwing darts at the target until they hit on one. FWIW Wilson didn't exactly light it up his rookie season, they won because of that defense. Likewise, Pace only has to be right on either of Glennon or Trubisky. If he is, the rest will be forgotten. If he's wrong on both it will never be forgotten. That's what he's paid for. I believe it was Adam who said hope is not a strategy. We signed the best FA QB at the time, and we signed the best QB in the draft. If he can't get it right we're better off finding out sooner than later, such as after we've lived with numerous 8-10 win seasons of mediocrity. There's a reason KC spent so much on a rookie QB even though Alex Smith can get them into the playoffs annually. I'd rather ride this gamble into the future than be stuck like Cleveland with another season of no QB hopeful on the roster. They have Jabril Peppers on their roster, now if only they can find a position for him.

This is actually wrong. We have quite a bit of evidence Cleveland was talking with numerous teams to trade up from the 12th pick. Pace sat back, let Trubisky stay off his radar as far as the league was concerned, and it is quite likely he was having discussions with Cleveland about trading back. In fact that was rumored just a few days ago. The obvious target for Cleveland in any trade up was Trubisky so if they called Pace about making a deal to trade up he had a really good idea of how much they were willing to give up to make the deal. There was also quite a bit of chatter the last few weeks that Cleveland was strongly considering using the #1 overall on Trubisky. It seems pretty clear there were some in their organization who felt he was worth 3000 pts (for those who rely on the draft trade chart), and they'd have walked away from drafting Garrett in order to get him. ------ If you want to evaluate how well Pace assessed the QB market then you have two other trades up for QBs in the first round to compare. Keep in mind there is some debate about what next years picks are worth but generally carry about the same value. That's because in this day and age anyone drafting late could easily be drafting 10 positions earlier the next year. Or our case being early in the 3rd Rd, the value of next year's 3rd Rd pick could easily be worth less than this years. I used Drafttek's trade value chart. KC grabbed #10 worth 1300pts. They gave up #27 680pts, next year's first which we can assume is worth the same but since it is next year it has a bit lower value, and then added in #91 worth 136pts. Total given up for their QB 1496. Overpayment of 15% Texans went from #25 to #12 worth 1200pts. #25 = 720pts plus next years first so again assume similar draft position of 720pts minus small next year discount. Total given up for their QB 1440pts. Overpayment of 20% Bears bought a pick worth 2600pts. We gave up #3 2200pts, 3rd Rd x2 255x2 = 560pts. #111 worth 72pts. In total we spent 2832pts. Overpayment of 9% So yes, we overspent to get our QB but the market as established by those other trades shows that our deal fits in very well. Some history on big trades for QBs: Here they devalue next year's picks more than I have. Yet if you do that then our 2018 pick we gave up brings our deal pretty close to face value. http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2015/4/30/8383...anation-history Take the Robert Griffin III trade. The St. Louis Rams owned the No. 2 overall pick (worth 2600 points) in the 2012 NFL Draft, the slot most expected the Baylor quarterback to come off the board. However, the Rams drafted Sam Bradford just two years earlier and did not feel compelled to give up on him so quickly. Washington, desperate for a signal caller, sent St. Louis the sixth overall pick in the same draft (1600 points), their second-round pick (520 points) and two future first-rounders. While picks later years are devalued, those two selections ultimately combined for more than 3,300 points.

Because the contract we gave to Glennon we'd have given to JimmyG, plus likely a lot more guaranteed. I think it's safe to think JimmyG might have gotten two years salary guaranteed vs. Glennon getting 1.2 years. With the 3rd pick and the QB cap hit Pace would have received one shot at finding a starting QB. Pace instead chose to take two shots at finding his QB with approximately the same investment. You have to keep in mind that we gave up valuable draft picks but in exchange we get more flexibility than what we'd have had with JimmyG contract. If we don't want Glennon around next year we can either trade him and get value (picks) back thus mitigating the investment in Trubisky. Or we cut Glennon and use his money to sign FA players to fill the holes we have from the draft picks we gave up. If Glennon hits it big then we trade Trubisky. We won't get everything back on balance that we gave up but if we hit on a starting QB the net loss won't be nearly as much as it first appears.

I liked Trubisky all along so I'm ok with this. Getting a QB is almost always expensive or just pure dumb luck.

Since it's just Rd 1 today I'm only forced to make one pick: Jamal Adams FS/SS/UltraSafety (didn't we used to have the Ultra Back?) I do not see Cleveland moving all the way up to #3 to select Trubisky, much less #2. I suspect all their shopping around is to see who, if anyone, will move down and accept a pick or picks from next year's draft. If the 49ers are stuck at #2 I think Thomas is their pick. They don't have a decent DE for their scheme and Thomas is that at LDE. Bears simply go BPA and Need and bring home a stud DB.