lemonej
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Lemon,
(a) Not sure it is fair to criticize Rivera for SD's defense. Rivera was the inside LB coach under Ted Cottrell after leaving Chicago. Last year, SD fired Cottrell, and Rivera was promoted, I believe around the bye week, which for them was midseason. The perception is that their defense was improved under Rivera. It wasn't great, but improved. So I am not sure it is fair to criticize Rivera for SD's defensive struggles when he was not in charge of the defense, and it did imporve once he took over.
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I don't recall Rivera ever being Lovie's choice. As I recall, after not being allowed to interview Marinelli, Lovie wanted Babich, but Lovie was not allowed him either. Can't recall whether it was Angelo, Phillips, or both, but Babich was considered too green, and the team wanted more of a name, which Rivera obviously was in Chicago. Rivera was never a Lovie choice, but at the time, Lovie didn't have the power to really fight for who/what he wanted.Nfo that whole situation is sketchy for me especially when it comes to Rivera. I believe the fact that he did his volunteer coaching(unpaid) here made him a favorite of the family and we know in most cases the ownership can have some influence on some hirings. This might be what the issue is between Lovie and Rivera. I think I remember that Rivera was hired as an assistant by Angelo and then he got the DC job by default. Either way my comparison with him and Lovie versus Ditka/Ryan ended with me saying he hasn't had the same success since he left here and Lovie hasn't had the same success since he left the Bears. So saying there is a perception is like saying there is a rumor. The fact is that team was 8-8 and under acheived. So maybe it was Cottrells defense but Rivera was on the SD staff for 2 years and he should have been able to know how to better utilize the personnel. I believe that Rivera who has been given HC interviews may be starting to cool off in the eyes of the rest of the league. If that wasn't the case why would all these young guys be getting opportunities to be head coaches before him when he was a Super Bowl DC? This debate about how good coaches are based on players they coached on another team is getting old and watching Rex Ryan shoot his mouth off when he is not going to have Ray Lewis to translate what he is scheming to the players is going to be a big difference. I just look at guys likie Marvin Lewis and Romeo Crennell who made their reputations in this manner as good examples as to why its hard to project how well someone can do until they get the ideal personnel for their particular scheme. What is Rivera's philosphy? He played in the 46 and a 4-3 under Ditka/Ryan and a zone blitzing scheme under Tobin. He coached in a exotic 4-3 blitzing scheme under Jimmy Johnson in Philadelphia and here coached in the Tampa 2 4-3 scheme. Now at SD that is a 3-4 scheme which he never played in and now he is coaching. What is something you can connect Chico with in terms of scheme? I think Les Frasier is a better DC than Rivera right now but I never here anyone mentioning him and I wanted Lovie to hire him.
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I look at this whole Lovie/Rivera debate as similar to Ryan and Ditka. In each case neither has achieved the same success that they enjoyed when they were together. Since Rivera has been gone how successful has he been as San Diego's DC? They have a lot of talent on that defense but seem to come up short of being dominating. I remember Lovie chose Rivera himself and then realized they had philosophical differences. Lovie got a late start at assembling a staff as is the case whenever the Bears hire a new coach they rarely get their first choice and tend to drag their feet in the process. Lovie originally wanted Marinelli to run his defense but Tampa wouldn't let him go out of his contract. So he had an OC that didn't get off the bus running and a DC who came from a totally different scheme calling defensive signals. It seems he is content with Turner and now that Marinelli is here he should have what he thinks he needs to be succesful.
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it was said that under Shanny he was a great teammate and that he was the first to show up and last to leave, just like he is doing for the Bears!!
No one will really know what went on between Cutler and McDouche. I CANT wait until Cutler tears it up and all the naysayers can suck a big fat one!
Lets compare how Mike Tomlin handled himself when he got to Pittsburgh following a legendary coach versus Mc Danials.
Tomlin a Tony Dungy disciple ran a 4-3 scheme with a variation of the Cover 2. So he arrives in Steelers camp and sticks with their current 3-4 format that fits most of his personnel that happens to include a couple of pro bowlers and what do you know he has a Super Bowl win a couple of years later.
McDanials OTOH seems to think he was responsible for the development of Tom Brady and Matt Cassell. Isn't there a coach in South Bend Indiana that was credited with Brady's development too? All Denver needed was a running back. They signed 2 guys and drafted Moreno. Add that 2 that WR corp of Marshall, Royal and TE Schefler and you got the makings of a potent offense. I'm not sure why you would mess with that with a castoff QB and a guy who may not have much upside. Orton may be what he is going to be now and nothing more. Sims has never lived up to the hype of his last name. I believe McDanials will follow Crennel, Mangini and Weis as having no success after leaving the real reason New Englands franchise and thats Bill Belechick.
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I think you're just putting TO in there so you can marvel at your own writing!
I think putting up Matt Jones would have added more value to the discussion. Since he is out there and had has his share of off-field issues.
I do agree w/ your assessment. If I had to choose between Burress or Marshall, I'd take Burress. I think his time here would be limited and by then, I'd hope one of our younger guys would be ready to be an all pro. Marshall has the greater up-side and longevity, but I just get the feeling, I think like you do, that he is a douchebag. (No offense to douche bags...) He seems like a bad seed. Now, if you said, would you take Marshall or nothing...I'd take marshall and hope that maybe he has matured. Although, I just have a general issue w/ d-heads that insist on hitting women.
In all honesty, I think Matt Jones is the best one to take a chance on. He'll serve no suspention, no potential jail time, and his crime was a personal one where he was his own victim. I'm sure he's not the first NFL player to get caught w/ blow. The cops now bust these guys instead of whisking them off and asking for signed jerseys once they drop them off at home.
Mad L I'm with you on Matt Jones and it will cost you nothing in return. The one thing Nfo left out about Burress is that he doesn't do much practicing and that has been a issue with him throughout his career. There are too many guys on the Bears current roster now who habitually do not practice and I believe we don't need that when trying to create chemistry with a new QB and receiving corp.BTW the courts just refused to overturn Chicago's hand gun ban so that would basically make it difficult for Plaxico to enjoy any night life in the Chi since he thinks he needs a gun with him to enjoy himself.
As for Marshall history tells me that the McCaskeys would veto a domestic abuse offender with Paul Grasmanis being the one publicized case from Bears history being shown the door after he hit his girlfriend in a domestic dispute. I could put up with publicity hungry media darlings but a woman beater is just as bad as a dog fighter IMO.
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The starting QB on our SB winner mooned a helicopter after being in the league for 3 years and he was called a character. All I can say is that the 2 QBs taken before him in the draft have much more questionable maturity than he does. Hows Vince Young and Matt Leinart doing?
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All I have to say on this subject is the two previous coaching staffs made a total off 2 playoff appearances period and some fans are not happy with a guy who has made two in 5 years. This is not to say that he shouldn't improve on some of his decision making especially when it comes to staff.He turns over defensive staff almost every other year which has to hurt some of the continuity and chemistry in subtle ways. In that regard he is similar to Cowher who didn't win the SB until he kept the same offensive and defensive coordinators for a couple of years. This is Lovie's year to put up or shut up. With some of the pick ups on offense I think Turner should on notice also.
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I can remember a at least 2 teams in Chicago The Fire coached by Jim Spavital and the Chicago Winds coached by Abe Gibron.
The Winds sucked and maybe lasted one year but the Fire had former Bear and Cincinatti Bengal QB Virg ( Chicken Bleep)Carter as their QB and at WR former NFLers James Scott, Jack Dolbin and Trumaine Hawkins. At RB they had Cyril Pinder and Tim Spencer(Bears RB Coach).
This league was in the 70's and netted the Bears coach Jack Pardee and quite a few players like James Scott, Greg Latta, Dan Peiffer, Jeff Sevy and Fast Eddie Sheats. This was so long ago that my memory sometimes confuses this league with the USFL that was in the mid 80's if yo got some World Football league memories please share them with us.
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Very reasonable expectations.
In his first year as a WR (2002) after being primarily a return guy in 2001 Steve Smith had R Peete throwing to him and he caught 54 passes for 872 yds and 3 TDs. In his 2nd year as a WR (2003) he caught 88 passes for 1110 yds and 7 TDs after Carolina brought in an upgrade at QB in J Delhomme.
In Hesters 1st year as WR with Orton he made 51 catches for 665 yds and 3 TDs. Now I have to believe Cutler is a better QB than Delhomme and I see no reason why in his 2nd year he can not match S Smith's 2nd year production.
S Smith was lost do to injury in 2004 but in his 3rd year as a full time WR he caught 103 passes for 1563 yds and 12 TDs.
If Hester can come close to the progression S Smith made in his 2nd & 3rd years, I would be very excited.
Pix I like your thinking and believe that if he could get back to the form he had on returns in the Super Bowl season he will get his condifdence back up and become ven more deadly on offense.
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My all time greats are Morris, Ditka and Waddle. Ditka would lay the lumber on folks after the catch and Waddle, well, what can you say?
Hey Chile reread my post where I took Johnny Morris out of the equation. I hope you have noticed there are a lot of guys being mentioned are from the 90's and you and I are talking about a Flanker Back. I made no mention of Bo Rather, Ricky Watts, Marcus Anderson, Charlie Wade, George Farmer and James Scott.
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I was a huge MRob fan, but I am not sure how much he was "burried".
As I recall, he was very raw to begin with, and was shipped out to NFL Europe, where he was impressive.
His first season on the bears roster, we had Engram and Conway, and played a very run oriented system, often using two TE formations. It was in only his 2nd NFL season he put up 1,400 yards.
But after that season, he began to suffer injuries. On top of that, we moved to QBs who didn't have the arm, and were looking to make shorter passes. Again, as I recall, while MRob was a terror on go routes, the knock on him was he was afraid to go over the middle, limiting what he could do in a less explosive system.
I loved MRob, and would agree that he was among the best talented WRs for the bears. At the same time, he himself was a huge reason (injuries, beginning very raw and lack of developing a rounded game) for his lack of long term success.
NFO thats my point exactly why was he raw? He did not get a look until a new coaching staff came in. At that time our most reliable receiver was Engram because Conway was not a polished receiver either.. Who was the TEs, I remember Keith Jennings and Chris Gedney and a guy who wore number 86 who's name I can't place that was split out wide most of the time.(Help me out on the name he came from Stanford I believe) Robinson was drafted in 97 in the 4th round out of South Carolina State. He was basically a track man playing football there. So most of his early time under John Shoop he did nothing and then under Crowton he Booker and Conway all did pretty well stats wise.
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One other giuy never mentioned is Wendell Davis. He played only briefly due to injury, but when he played, he looked darn good.
Any Gentry love?
I like Wendell but he along with Brad Muster are pushing Grossman and Haynes as the worst two first round picks in Bears history when the team had two first rounders. Of course the best is Butkus and Sayers. The debate for second best is in 79 Hampton and Al Harris and in 83 Covert and Gault. The 3/4th best would be Trace Armstrong and Donnell Woolford.
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I think that's the main reason why we are having him shed weight to move back to DE. When he packed on the pounds to play inside, he lost some of the speed that made him so deadly on kickoffs.
Plus, he's good at blocking kicks with his extremely long arms.
Your last statement is what he is very underrated at doing blocking kicks. If he can get 2 or 3 a year thats a good stat for a special teammer. I think the Bears are waiting for Anderson or Ogunleye to have a banner year with the other one being shown the door.
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That is completely BS, hopefully the suspensions stand.
I agree but hope that the media backlash that will come as a result of this will have a negative affect on that lockerrom.Interviews with teammates about the situation should be similar to when Tank was going through his legal troubles here. Since we have a couple of people who like to make predictions on this board, I'm going to predict that Jared Allen is going to be suspended for a hit on a QB below the knees that gets a lot of media attention.Tha would be just as good as the Williamses going down.
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Oh, I'm not trying to say Hester is the same caliber of receiver that any of those guys are. I think the statistics bear that out: if Hester had gotten as many targets as Calvin Johnson, he'd still be nearly 250 yards short of Johnson's production. I was just trying to say that, had he been targeted as often as they were, he would have had legitimate (if probably unspectacular) #1 receiver numbers.
My main point is that Hester was underused last season. I think a lot of that had to do, as you say, with Orton not being able to get him the ball on deep routes. Whatever the reason was, I hope that Hester improves his catching in 2009, but I also hope Cutler goes to him much more often than Orton did. If Cutler throws to him 120 or 130 times, Hester could do some real damage, even if he only improves his catch rate by 5-10%.
DFG I have always felt that Hester is not under used but not used properly. At his size he will be hard presses to be the prototypical #1 receiver but if the OC decides that he has a player with special ability when he gets the ball in space he will create more plays to get hin the ball. I would love to see a formation with 3 WR a TE and Hester in the backfield. I'd also like to see a Hester and Forte combo in the backfield and then send one in motion in our 2 TE set.
I know I'm probably over simplifying it but you get what I'm thinking.
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Pisa Yes ,Boldin and Plaxico no. Why?
Look at what Boldin is doing right now after basically being the second receiver on a Super Bowl team. Is this what we want in our lockerroom? Talent alone is one thing but there seems to be an underlying theme to some of Drew Rosehaus' clients current and former. Lance Briggs, Thomas Jones and Tommie Harris all have Drew as their front man and look how all three have acted recently. Briggs with his threatening not ot attend the OTA last season is very similar to Thomas Jones with the Jets this year and Thomas Jones in his last season with the Bears. TO and all his antics and Drew represents him. One of the quietest clients of Drew is Wale and prior to coming to the Bears he and Drew orchestrated a hold out, a trade and contract extension.
As for Pisa he seems to be exactly what we need at SAM and now you can make Roach and Hilly fight for a roster spot unless Pisa plays like the last guy that we thought was a perfect fit for Lovies scheme and that was Archuleta.
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I assume the 250-lb. MLB you're talking about is Urlacher. The problem with using him as an example is that he's an athletic freak. You can't even call him a prototypical Tampa-2 MLB, because he's much bigger than the prototype and has at least as much range and coverage ability. He's practically the size of a defensive end, but he covers like a safety: guys with that physical skillset don't come around often. Obviously every Tampa-2 team would love to have an Urlacher clone, just like they'd like to have a freak at free safety. I'm sure Lovie and company would jump at the chance to get a 220 or 230 pound free safety with the requisite range and coverage skills, but in a big guy those are pretty rare.
Taylor Mays from USC is a good example: he goes 6'3" 230, but has the speed and coverage ability of a much smaller, lighter player. He's the best of both worlds, for sure. But Mays is going to be a high first-round pick, and there's a reason for that: guys like him don't come around very often. Most guys as fast as he is are around 200-210 pounds, and most guys as big as he is don't have the speed or range for the Tampa-2.
I'm sorry I took so long to respond DFG you are so right about the prototype at Tampa 2 MLB and Urlacher doesn't fit the mold but he is the type of athlete you need at the position.That is what is wrong with this defense? You need to have special players in a couple of positions to play it. The original team that played this defense was the Steelers under Chuck Noll and they had a HOF at DT, MLB, WLB and CB. The next most celebrated team that played this defense was the Bucs under a former Steeler Tony Dungy. That team will have a HOF at WLB,DT,SS and CB. Our defense has only one potential HOF player and a possible 2nd.
Taylor Mays I'm a big fan and think he may be in the top 10 next year and also believe if he had come out this year he would have been a top 15 pick and the top safety on the board.
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The coaching staff seems pretty dead-set on going into the season with Hanie and Basanez as the backups. If they are looking for a FA backup, though, it shouldn't be Grossman. Judging from last season, Rex is even worse coming off the bench than he is as a starter. The main argument I've heard against signing an FA quarterback is that anybody we sign will have to learn the system, and Hanie has a year of experience that those guys won't. The only exceptions are the two available QBs who have played here before: Grossman and Brian Griese (who's going to be released by the Bucs, from the look of things.) If we're going to get a veteran backup who knows the system, I'd WAY rather have Griese than Grossman.
Just for fun, I thought I'd stack Griese and Grossman's stats as starters against Orton's and Cutler's. The main metrics you look for in a starting quarterback are a positive TD-INT ratio (ideally at least 2:1,) a completion percentage north of 60%, and a YPA somewhere around 7. I think a good backup QB's not going to get all three of those, but he shouldn't be too far off. Look at Cutler's 2008 stats:
Cutler (2008): 62.3% completion percentage, 7.3 YPA, 25 TD, 18 INT (almost 3:2 ratio.)
...compared to Chicago's three most recent starting QBs:
Orton (2008): 58.5% completion percentage, 6.4 YPA, 18 TD, 12 INT (3:2 ratio.)
Griese (2007): 61.5% completion percentage, 6.9 YPA, 10 TD, 12 INT (5:6 ratio.)
Grossman (2007): 54.2% completion percentage, 6.3 YPA, 4 TD, 7 INT (4:7 ratio.)
Obviously stats don't tell you everything, but here's what I take from those numbers:
- Orton's stat line looks like that of a game manager-type QB. His completion percentage is somewhat low, but not egregiously so. His YPA, however, is very low, reflecting the fact that he was constantly checking down to Olsen or Forte. His TDs total is low, but his TD-INT ratio is good enough. Judging by the numbers, he's not a big producer on offense, but he's a safe starter.
- Cutler produces just like you'd expect a good starting QB to. His YPA is very solid for a starter, his completion percentage is good, and despite his 18 picks, his ratio of touchdowns to interceptions is almost as good as Orton's. If he cut down to 12 interceptions or so, he'd have an ideal stat line.
- Between Griese and Grossman, Griese's stat line looks far more like that of a starting QB. He completed better than 60% of his passes in 2007, had a YPA close to 7, and was closer than Grossman to a 1:1 ratio of TDs to INTs.
Comparing Griese to Grossman, I really don't think there's any question who would make the better backup. Also, Griese could be a good mentor to help Hanie develop: Orton said in an interview that a lot of his development was due to Griese helping him with film study and learning to read defenses. I don't think Grossman could teach anybody those things, even if he wanted to.
Do you remember how Griese left here? He felt like he wasn't given a fair shot at the job. He had some parting shots for the organization so I think it would be unlikely that he would be brought back here. Plus I believe Griese is like Jeff Garcia and thinks he should be a starter no matter what the situation is.
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This is where the coaching staff screwed up totally last year. Bennett IMO should have been asked to learn one position, at least to start the year, so he could get on the field. Instead we went with Lloyd and Booker. Lloyd at first seemed like the right choice but Booker never did anything to impress me and in fact I wanted to cut him. Even if we started out with the "learn all positions approach" it should have been quickly pared down to get him on the field once they saw how bad the others were. Now we have a second year WR who didn't catch a single pass last year. Ridiculous consider how bad our WR corps was last year.
Man you took the words out of my mouth. This continues to be a problem I have with Ron Turner. I can go all the way back to when he had Curtis Conway and saw how slow he was to develop. He always seems to prefer veterans over rookies
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In my lifetime (19 years), Marcus Robinson, Marty Booker, Curtis Conway, Bobby Engram, Bernard Berrian, Eddie Kennison.
Eww.
Hey guys I overlooked another guy who actually should have been mentioned and that is Ricky Proehl. When he was playing here he was the go to guy and he IMO had a decent NFL career.
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Hey, I'm just sticking up for Coach! Granted, I more than respect the history you've personally witnessed. I've only been privvy from 1978...when as an 8 year old I started caring. So Ditka really defines the Bears for me personally. But I went back and read my history with the many great books that are out there. All coaches have their warts. From Walsh to Knoll to Shula to Hallas to Johnson. I don't remotely consider Ditka one of the all time greats (as a coach, he is as a TE). But he is a great for Chicago. Hallas was a cheap bastard that hindered the team's success with his penny pinching. But, I love him! If not for him, there'd be no NFL...etc. Sometimes the planets don't align. That Super Team from 85 should have won more. Remove one of the best D coordinators of all time, remove an injury prone winning QB, remove an intergral linebacker, and any team will struggle to repeat. He made his share of mistakes, like all of them. But, overall, for the 10 years he coached...oppoenents were scared of us! They played us, they'd get hurt, and more often than not, they'd lose. Even teams that the great Butkus and Sayers played in couldn't say that. He restored Bear pride. Some are offfended by the quasi-mockery on SNL...however, no other team, no other coach, no other team got to be "made fun" of like that. It's an honor. It's in the psyche...
Let's also not forget what transpired during his time... Bill Walsh's super 49'ers were around. Parcell's Giants Gibbs' Redskins...all those teams won it when we couldn't. All great teams. The league won owned by the NFC and we only could punch through once... Sad, but it is what it is. But, one team, one year, one time...NO ONE CAN TOP THOSE 85 BEARS!!! And for that alone, Ditka deserves his props.
...just sayin'. I'll get off my soapbox now...
I agree and really think that current Bears teams are measured by that 85 team which is a little unfair since that team has 3 HOF players and should have 2 more.
1978 wow I was wasting time on Western Illinois' campus as a freshman. That was when there was the Mike Phipps and Vince Evans QB battle. Neil Armstrong was the coach and Buddy Ryan was in his first year as a defensive coordinator.
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http://bleacherreport.com/articles/183949-...from-mediocrity
Article I wrote on the transition from Orton to Cutler. Thoughts?
I know its not easy to write an article for anything but how can you list Bears QBs after McMahon and not have Jim Harbaugh a 1st round pick in 87 on it? You also didn't mention Steve Walsh, Jim Miller and Will Furer.
2am? Were you on a deadline?
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The best WR we had on the Bears was Kennan McCardell, unfortunately didnt stay long enough to show it here. The Jaguars had to suffer with his carrer.
The question was about who you actually saw play for the Bears. I'm sure there are some fans in Dallas who think the same way you do about McCardell since he was on their roster first.
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On offense I will go with Kevin Jones. Last season it was obvious that Forte was over used so I think there will be a big push to reduce his work load and the one guy that would surprise me is Jones since he will be farther removed from his significant knee injury.
On defense I'm picking Marcus Harrison because I liked what I saw last year and think Marinelli will take him to the next level.
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I was reluctant to list Robinson higher since he was buried on the depth chart by Wannie and supposedly he was a bad practice player.
Cutler says he's happy with the Bears' receivers
in Bearstalk
Posted
Pix I'm right there with you and lets address that maturity issue after he gives answers to questions like he has the last couple of days. He personally said he was going to get Bennett up to speed and it seems so far that he has followed that up. When you speak about someone being a leader this is what you envision. BTW Oklahoma WRs are starting to resemble Texas WRs in the NFL and are not measuring up to their hype.