Lucky Luciano

i posted the information in these draft pick comparisons over 15 years ago but they still can help in determining the quality of the NFL draft and where you pick. It is a very intensive time consuming effort I published on this board and on the previous Bears board. The data was compilied up until 2007. So take it for what it's worth (or disregard it if you please).......... ================================================================================ 2012 below are some statistics i compiled for the old board about 8 years ago and i have updated the information to date, 2012. it lists all players drafted in slots 1-20 in the first round and how they compare to obtaining a quality player drafting in these slots. feel free if you wish to copy this information for your own records but please acknowledge where you got them from as it was an incredible amount of work putting this together. thanks, Lucky Luciano my conclusions after looking at the statistics below i know i am not so sure i wouldn't consider trading up EVERY year into the top 10 if you want the odds on your side with selecting a quality player. below are some interesting facts: 1) over a 29 year period there were 580 picks in slots 1-20 2) 134 were quality picks in slots 1-10 or 23% of the players picked 3) 77 were quality picks in slots 11-20 or 13% of the players picked 4) that makes it a 43.5% (edit per Mongo3451) better chance to land a better player in slots 1-10 than 11-20 in the first round. the data below reads as follows: YEAR - NUMBER OF PLAYERS FROM PICKS 1-10 - NUMBER OF PLAYERS FROM PICKS 11-20 1979 - 6 - 1 1980 - 5 - 3 1981 - 7 - 2 1982 - 5 - 2 1983 - 8 - 2 1984 - 3 - 3 * 1985 - 7 - 2 1986 - 4 - 1 1987 - 5 - 1 1988 - 6 - 7 ** 1989 - 4 - 1 1990 - 4 - 3 1991 - 3 - 0 1992 - 3 - 3 * 1993 - 5 - 1 1994 - 5 - 4 1995 - 4 - 5 ** 1996 - 5 - 2 1997 - 5 - 3 1998 - 2 - 3 ** 1999 - 7 - 2 2000 - 4 - 6 ** 2001 - 5 - 3 2002 - 3 - 3 * 2003 - 7 - 2 2004 - 5 - 4 2005 - 1 - 4 ** 2006 - 3 - 2 2007 - 3 - 2 TOTAL 134 - 77 21 out of 29 times there were MORE quality players selected 1-10 than in slots 11-20. *3 times they were even **only 5 times in 29 years were there more pro bowl/all-pro players picked in slots 11-20. i used data for 29 years from 1979 to 2007 inclusive. i did not go further than 2007 as the time frame would be not be long enough to determine any significant figures. over time some of these figures will change and have to be adjusted. i also am using figures from picks 1-20 in the first round only to determine the value of drafting in the top 10 as compared to picking in the next 10 slots. although i haven't tallied up the differences in slots 21-32 i believe the numbers would be considerably lower. anyone who feels like doing the work is welcome to dispute that statement. i went through an incredible amount of data to get these stats. all data was figured from players who had at LEAST two forms of award. EXAMPLE.. a player that had 1 pro bowl and 1 all-pro made the list, a player that was selected for 2 pro-bowls made the list, a player who was selected as all-pro (or all-nfl) twice made the list, and multiples of the above. im no math expert by any means and if anyone see's any errors post them and/or i will post the players along with data. any who want can do the math on their own as it is possible i missed someone or added one by mistake. if you find any that dont jive let me know. =========== listed below are the players that i used for the stats above from 1979 - 2007. how long did this take to compile this data you ask? days! ap = ALL-PRO pb = PRO BOWL >> << BRACKETS ARE IMPACT PLAYERS WITH MULTIPLE PRO-BOWL OR ALL-PRO STATUS. 1979 - 6 - 1 - top 5 = 3 >> 1 Tom Cousineau Bills LB Ohio State - 2 ap >> 2 Mike Bell Chiefs DE Colorado State 3 Jack Thompson Bengals QB Washington State >> 4 Dan Hampton Bears DT Arkansas - 4 pb - 1 ap<< >> 5 Jerry Butler Bills WR Clemson - 1 pb - 1 ap<< 6 Barry Krauss Colts LB Alabama >> 7 Phil Simms Giants QB Morehead State - 2 pb - 1 ap<< >> 8 Ottis Anderson Cardinals RB Miami (FL) - 2 pb - 2 ap<< 9 Al Harris Bears DE Arizona State >> 10 Keith Dorney Lions T Penn State - 1 pb - 2 ap<< -------------------------------------------------- 11 Russell Erxleben Saints K Texas 12 Charles Alexander Bengals RB LSU >> 13 Kellen Winslow Chargers TE Missouri - 5 pb - 3 ap<< 14 Marty Lyons Jets DE Alabama 15 Eddie Lee Ivery Packers RB Georgia Tech 16 Ted Brown Vikings RB North Carolina State 17 Don Smith Falcons DE Miami (FL) - 1 ap 18 Manu Tuiasosopo Seahawks DT UCLA 19 George Andrews Rams LB Nebraska 20 Willis Adams Browns WR Houston ======================================= 1980 - 5 - 3 - top 5 = 2 >> 1 Billy Sims Lions RB Oklahoma - 2 pb - 2 ap<< 2 Lam Jones Jets WR Texas >> 3 Anthony Munoz Bengals T USC - 10 pb - 11 ap<< 4 Bruce Clark Packers DT Penn State - 1 pb 5 Curtis Dickey Colts RB Texas A&M 6 Curtis Greer Cardinals DE Michigan - 1 ap >> 7 Junior Miller Falcons TE Nebraska - 2 pb<< >> 8 Mark Haynes Giants DB Colorado - 3pb - 5 ap<< 9 Doug Martin Vikings DT Washington >> 10 Jacob Green Seahawks DE Texas A&M- 2ap - 4 ap<< -------------------------------------------- 11 Brad Budde Chiefs G USC 12 Stan Brock Saints T Colorado 13 Earl Cooper 49ers RB Rice 14 Roland James Patriots DB Tennessee - 1 ap 15 Marc Wilson Raiders QB Brigham Young >> 16 Jim Ritcher Bills C North Carolina State - 2 pb - 2 ap<< 17 Johnnie Johnson Rams DB Texas - 1 ap >> 18 Art Monk Redskins WR Syracuse - 3 pb - 3 ap<< >> 19 Otis Wilson Bears LB Louisville - 1 pb - 2 ap << 20 Jim Stuckey 49ers DT Clemson ===================================================== 1981 - 7 - 2 - top 5 = 5 >> 1 George Rogers Saints RB South Carolina - 2 pb - 2 ap<< >> 2 Lawrence Taylor Giants LB North Carolina - 10 pb - 8 ap<< >> 3 Freeman McNeil Jets RB UCLA - 3 pb - 3 ap<< >> 4 Kenny Easley Seahawks DB UCLA - 5 pb - 5 ap<< >> 5 E.J. Junior Cardinals LB Alabama - 2 pb - 2 ap<< 6 Rich Campbell Packers QB California >> 7 Hugh Green Buccaneers LB Pittsburgh - 2 pb - 2 ap<< >> 8 Ronnie Lott 49ers DB USC - 10 pb - 6 ap<< 9 Mel Owens Rams LB Michigan 10 David Verser Bengals WR Kansas ----------------------------------------------------- 11 Keith Van Horne Bears T USC 12 Randy McMillan Colts RB Pittsburgh 13 David Overstreet Dolphins RB Oklahoma 14 Willie Scott Chiefs TE South Carolina >> 15 Dennis Smith Broncos DB USC - 6 pb<< 16 Mark Nichols Lions WR San Jose State 17 Keith Gary Steelers DE Oklahoma 18 Donnell Thompson Colts DT North Carolina >> 19 Brian Holloway Patriots T Stanford - 3 pb - 3 ap<< 20 Mark May Redskins T Pittsburgh - 1 ap ============================================ 1982 - 5 - 2 - top 5 = 2 1 Kenneth Sims Patriots DT Texas 2 Johnie Cooks Colts LB Mississippi State >> 3 Chip Banks Browns LB USC - 4 pb - 4 ap<< 4 Art Schlichter Colts QB Ohio State >> 5 Jim McMahon Bears QB Brigham Young - 1 pb - 1 ap<< 6 Jeff Bryant Seahawks DE Clemson - 1 ap 7 Darrin Nelson Vikings RB Stanford >> 8 Mike Munchak Oilers G Penn State - 9 pb - 2 ap<< >> 9 Gerald Riggs Falcons RB Arizona State - 3 pb - 2 ap<< >> 10 Marcus Allen Raiders RB USC - 5 pb - 2 ap<< -------------------------------------------- 11 Anthony Hancock Chiefs WR Tennessee 12 Walter Abercrombie Steelers RB Baylor 13 Lindsay Scott Saints WR Georgia 14 Barry Redden Rams RB Richmond 15 Jimmy Williams Lions LB Nebraska >> 16 Luis Sharpe Cardinals T UCLA - 3 pb - 4 ap<< 17 Sean Farrell Buccaneers G Penn State - 1 ap 18 Butch Woolfork Giants RB Michigan 19 Perry Tuttle Bills WR Clemson >> 20 Mike Quick Eagles WR North Carolina State - 5 pb - 4 ap<< ==================================== 1983 - 8 - 2 - top 5 = 5 >> 1 John Elway Colts QB Stanford - 9 pb<< >> 2 Eric Dickerson Rams RB SMU - 5 pb - 4 ap<< >> 3 Curt Warner Seahawks RB Penn State - 3 pb - 4 ap<< >> 4 Chris Hinton Broncos T Northwestern - 7 pb - 1 ap<< >> 5 Billy Ray Smith Chargers LB Arkansas - 3 ap<< >> 6 Jimbo Covert Bears T Pittsburgh - 2 pb - 2 ap<< 7 Todd Blackledge Chiefs QB Penn State 8 Michael Haddix Eagles RB Mississippi State >> 9 Bruce Matthews Oilers G USC - 14 pb - 7 ap<< >> 10 Terry Kinard Giants DB Clemson - 1 pb - 1 ap<< -------------------------------------------- 11 Tim Lewis Packers DB Pittsburgh - 1 ap 12 Tony Hunter Bills TE Notre Dame 13 James Jones Lions RB Florida - >> 14 Jim Kelly Bills QB Miami (FL) 5 pb - 1 ap<< 15 Tony Eason Patriots QB Illinois 16 Mike Pitts Falcons DE Alabama 17 Leonard Smith Cardinals DB McNeese State 1 ap 18 Willie Gualt Bears WR Tennessee >> 19 Joey Browner Vikings DB USC - 6 pb - 5 ap<< 20 Gary Anderson Chargers RB Arkansas - 1 pb ================================ 1984 - 3 - 3 - top 5 = 3 >> 1 Irving Fryar Patriots WR Nebraska - 5 pb - 1 ap<< 2 Dean Steinkuhler Oilers T Nebraska >> 3 Carl Banks Giants LB Michigan State - 1 pb - 1 ap<< 4 Kenny Jackson Eagles WR Penn State >> 5 Bill Maas Chiefs DT Pittsburgh - 2 ap<< 6 Mossy Cade Chargers DB Texas 7 Ricky Hunley Bengals LB Arizona 8 Leonard Coleman Colts DB Vanderbilt 9 Rick Bryan Falcons DT Oklahoma - 1 ap 10 Russell Carter Jets DB SMU -------------------------------------- >> 11 Wilber Marshall Bears LB Florida - 3 pb - 2 ap<< 12 Alphonso Carreker Packers DE Florida State >> 13 Keith Millard Vikings DE Washington State - 2 pb - 4 ap<< 14 Jackie Shipp Dolphins LB Oklahoma 15 Ron Faurot Jets DE Arkansas 16 Pete Koch Bengals DE Maryland 17 Clyde Duncan Cardinals WR Tennessee 18 Don Rogers Browns DB UCLA >> 19 Ron Solt Colts G Maryland - 1 pb - 1 ap<< 20 David Lewis Lions TE California ========================================== 1985 - 7 - 2 - top 5 = 5 >> 1 Bruce Smith Bills DE Virginia Tech 11 pb - 8 ap<< >> 2 Bill Fralic Falcons T Pittsburgh - 4 pb - 3 ap<< >> 3 Ray Childress Oilers DE Texas A&M - 5 pb - 6 ap<< >> 4 Chris Doleman Vikings DE Pittsburgh - 8 pb - 4 ap<< >> 5 Duane Bickett Colts LB USC - 1 pb - 2 ap<< >> 6 Lomas Brown Lions T Florida - 7 pb - 6 ap<< 7 Ken Ruettgers Packers T USC 8 Ron Holmes Buccaneers DE Washington 9 Kevin Allen Eagles T Indiana >> 10 Al Toon Jets WR Wisconsin - 3 pb - 3 ap<< -------------------------------------------- 11 Richard Johnson Oilers DB Wisconsin >> 12 Jim Lachey Chargers T Ohio State - 3 pb - 5 ap<< 13 Eddie Brown Bengals WR Miami (FL) - 1 ap 14 Derrick Burroughs Bills DB Memphis State 15 Ethan Horton Chiefs RB North Carolina >> 16 Jerry Rice 49ers WR Mississippi Valley State - 13 pb - 10 ap<< 17 Kevin Brooks Cowboys DE Michigan 18 Freddie Joe Nunn Cardinals DE Mississippi 19 George Adams Giants RB Kentucky 20 Darryl Sims Steelers DE Wisconsin ======================================= 1986 - 4 - 1 - top 5 = 2 >> 1 Bo Jackson Buccaneers RB Auburn - 1 pb - 2 ap<< 2 Tony Casillas Falcons DT Oklahoma - 1 ap >> 3 Jim Everett Oilers QB Purdue - 1 pb - 2 ap<< 4 Jon Hand Colts DE Alabama 5 Anthony Bell Cardinals LB Michigan State 6 Jim Dombrowski Saints T Virginia 7 Brian Jozwiak Chiefs T West Virginia >> 8 Leslie O'Neal Chargers DE Oklahoma State - 6 pb<< 9 John Rienstra Steelers G Temple >> 10 Keith Byars Eagles RB Ohio State - 1 pb - 1 ap<< ------------------------------------ 11 Joe Kelly Bengals LB Washington 12 Chuck Long Lions QB Iowa 13 James Fitzpatrick Chargers T USC 14 Gerald Robinson Vikings DE Auburn 15 John L. Williams Seahawks RB Florida 16 Ronnie Harmon Bills RB Iowa - 1 pb 17 Tim Green Falcons LB Syracuse 18 Mike Sherrard Cowboys WR UCLA 19 Eric Dorsey Giants DE Notre Dame >> 20 Will Wolford Bills T Vanderbilt - 3 pb - 2 ap<< ================================= 1987 - 5 - 1 - top 5 = 2 >> 1 Vinny Testaverde Buccaneers QB Miami (FL) - 2 pb - 1 ap<< >> 2 Cornelius Bennett Colts LB Alabama - 5 pb - 1 ap<< 3 Alonzo Highsmith Oilers RB Miami (FL) 4 Brent Fullwood Packers RB Auburn - 1 pb 5 Mike Junkin Browns LB Duke 6 Kelly Stouffer Cardinals QB Colorado State 7 Reggie Rogers Lions DE Washington >> 8 Shane Conlan Bills LB Penn State - 3 pb - 3 ap<< >> 9 Jerome Brown Eagles DT Miami (FL) - 2 pb - 3 ap<< >> 10 Rod Woodson Steelers DB Purdue 11 pb - 6 ap<< ------------------------------------------------------ 11 Shawn Knight Saints DT Brigham Young 12 Danny Noonan Cowboys DT Nebraska 13 Chris Miller Falcons QB Oregon - 1 pb 14 D.J. Dozier Vikings RB Penn State 15 John Clay Raiders T Missouri 16 John Bosa Dolphins DE Boston College 17 Jason Buck Bengals DE Brigham Young 18 Tony Woods Seahawks LB Pittsburgh 19 Paul Palmer Chiefs RB Temple >> 20 Haywood Jeffires Oilers WR North Carolina State - 3 pb - 2 ap<< ========================================= 1988 - 6 - 7 - top 5 = 3 1 Aundray Bruce Falcons LB Auburn - >> 2 Neil Smith Chiefs DE Nebraska - 6 pb - 6 ap<< >> 3 Bennie Blades Lions DB Miami (FL) - 1 pb - 3 ap<< >> 4 Paul Gruber Buccaneers T Wisconsin - 3 ap<< 5 Rickey Dixon Bengals DB Oklahoma >> 6 Tim Brown Raiders WR Notre Dame - 7 + - ap +<< >> 7 Sterling Sharpe Packers WR South Carolina - 5 pb - 5 ap<< 8 Dave Cadigan Jets T USC - >> 9 Terry McDaniel Raiders DB Tennessee - 5 pb - 2 ap<< 10 Eric Moore Giants T Indiana ------------------------------------- >> 11 Michael Irvin Cowboys WR Miami (FL) - + pb - + ap<< >> 12 Ken Harvey Cardinals LB California - + pb - + ap<< >> 13 Keith Jackson Eagles TE Oklahoma - 5 pb - 4 ap<< >> 14 Gaston Green Rams RB UCLA - 1 pb - 1 ap >> 15 Anthony Miller Chargers WR Tennessee - 5 pb - 3 ap<< 16 Eric Kumerow Dolphins DE Ohio State >> 17 John Stephens Patriots RB NW Louisiana - 1 pb - 1 ap<< 18 Aaron Jones Steelers DE Eastern Kentucky - >> 19 Randall McDaniel Vikings G Arizona State - 12 pb - 7 ap<< 20 Aaron Cox Rams WR Arizona State ================================================= 1989 - 4 -1 - top 5 = 4 >> 1 Troy Aikman Cowboys QB UCLA - 6 pb<< 2 Tony Mandarich Packers T Michigan State >> 3 Barry Sanders Lions RB Oklahoma State - 10 pb - 5 ap<< >> 4 Derrick Thomas Chiefs LB Alabama - 9 pb - 2 ap<< >> 5 Deion Snaders Falcons DB Florida State 8 pb - 6 ap<< 6 Broderick Thomas Buccaneers LB Nebraska 7 Tim Worley Steelers RB Georgia 8 Burt Grossman Chargers DE Pittsburgh 9 Sammie Smith Dolphins RB Florida State 10 Eric Hill Cardinals LB LSU --------------------------------------------- 11 Donnell Woolford Bears DB Clemson - 1 pb 12 Trace Armstrong Bears DE Florida 1 pb 13 Eric Metcalf Browns RB Texas 14 Jeff Lageman Jets LB Virginia - 1 ap 15 Andy Heck Seahawks T Notre Dame - 1 ap 16 Hart Lee Dykes Patriots WR Oklahoma State 17 Joe Wolf Cardinals G Boston College 18 Brian Williams Giants C Minnesota 19 Wayne Martin Saints DE Arkansas - 1 pb >> 20 Steve Atwater Broncos DB Arkansas - 8 pb - + ap<< ========================================= 1990 - 4 - 3 - top 5 = 2 1 Jeff George Colts QB Illinois 2 Blair Thomas Jets RB Penn State >> 3 Cortez Kennedy Seahawks DT Miami (FL) - 7 pb - 6 ap<< 4 Keith McCants Buccaneers LB Alabama >> 5 Junior Seau Chargers LB USC - 12 pb - 6 ap<< >> 6 Mark Carrier Bears DB USC - 3 pb - 3 ap<< 7 Andre Ware Lions QB Houston 8 Chris Singleton Patriots LB Arizona >> 9 Richmond Webb Dolphins T Texas A&M - 7 pb - 3 ap<< 10 Ray Agnew Patriots DE North Carolina State - -------------------------------------------- 11 Anthony Smith Raiders DE Arizona 12 James Francis Bengals LB Baylor 13 Percy Snow Chiefs LB Michigan State >> 14 Renaldo Turnbull Saints DE West Virginia - 1 pb - 1 ap<< >> 15 Lamar Lathon Oilers LB Houston - 1 pb - 1 ap<< 16 James Williams Bills DB Fresno State >> 17 Emmitt Smith Cowboys RB Florida 8 pb - 4 ap<< 18 Tony Bennett Packers LB Mississippi 19 Darrell Thompson Packers RB Minnesota 20 Steve Broussard Falcons RB Washington State ============================================== 1991 - 3 - 0 - top 5 = 1 1 Russell Maryland Cowboys DT Miami (FL) - 1 pb >> 2 Eric Turner Browns DB UCLA - 2 pb - 1 ap<< 3 Bruce Pickens Falcons DB Nebraska 4 Mike Croel Broncos LB Nebraska 5 Todd Lyght Rams DB Notre Dame - 1 pb >> 6 Eric Swann Cardinals DE None - 2 pb - 2 ap<< 7 Charles McRae Buccaneers T Tennessee 8 Antone Davis Eagles T Tennessee 9 Stanley Richard Chargers DB Texas >> 10 Herman Moore Lions WR Virginia - 4 pb - 3 ap<< --------------------------------------- 11 Pat Harlow Patriots T USC 12 Alvin Harper Cowboys WR Tennessee 13 Mike Pritchard Falcons WR Colorado 14 Leonard Russell Patriots RB Arizona State 15 Huey Richardson Steelers LB Florida 16 Dan McGwire Seahawks QB San Diego State 17 Bobby Wilson Redskins DT Michigan State 18 Alfred Williams Bengals LB Colorado 19 Vinnie Clark Packers DB Ohio State 20 Kelvin Pritchett Cowboys DT Mississippi ================================================ 1992 - 3 - 3 - top 5 = 1 1 Steve Emtman Colts DT Washington 2 Quentin Coryatt Colts LB Texas A&M >> 3 Sean Gilbert Rams DT Pittsburgh - 1 pb - 1 ap<< 4 Desmond Howard Redskins WR Michigan 5 Terrell Buckley Packers DB Florida State - 1 ap 6 David Klingler Bengals QB Houston >> 7 Troy Vincent Dolphins DB Wisconsin - 5 pb - 1 ap<< >> 8 Bob Whitfield Falcons T Stanford - 1 pb - 1 ap<< 9 Tommy Vardell Browns RB Stanford 10 Ray Roberts Seahawks T Virginia ------------------------------------------ 11 Leon Searcy Steelers T Miami (FL) - 1 pb >> 12 Marco Coleman Dolphins DE Georgia Tech - 2 pb<< 13 Eugene Chung Patriots T Virginia Tech 14 Derek Brown Giants TE Notre Dame 15 Johnny Mitchell Jets TE Nebraska >> 16 Chester McGlockton Raiders DT Clemson - 4 pb - + ap<< 17 Kevin Smith Cowboys DB Texas A&M - 1 ap 18 Dana Hall 49ers DB Washington - 19 Troy Smith Falcons RB Southern Mississippi >> 20 Dale Carter Chiefs DB Tennessee - 4 pb - 4 ap<< ========================================== 1993 - 5 - 1 - top 5 = 2 >> 1 Drew Bledsoe Patriots QB Washington State - 4 pb<< 2 Rick Mirer Seahawks QB Notre Dame >> 3 Garrison Hearst Cardinals RB Georgia 2 pb<< 4 Marvin Jones Jets LB Florida State 5 John Copeland Bengals DE Alabama 6 Eric Curry Buccaneers DE Alabama 7 Curtis Conway Bears WR USC >> 8 William Roaf Saints T Louisiana Tech - 11 pb - 3 ap<< >>9 Lincoln Kennedy Falcons T Washington - 3 pb - 1 ap<< >> 10 Jerome Bettis Rams RB Notre Dame - 6 pb - 2 ap<< ------------------------------------- 11 Dan Williams Broncos DE Toledo 12 Patrick Bates Raiders DB Texas A&M >>13 Brad Hopkins Oilers T Illinois - 2 pb<< 14 Steve Everitt Browns C Michigan 15 Wayne Simmons Packers LB Clemson 16 Sean Dawkins Colts WR California 17 Tom Carter Redskins DB Notre Dame 18 Ernest Dye Cardinals T South Carolina 19 Lester Holmes Eagles G Jackson State 20 Irv Smith Saints TE Notre Dame ==================================== 1994 - 5 - 4 - top 5 = 2 1 Dan Wilkinson Bengals DT Ohio State >> 2 Marshall Faulk Colts RB San Diego State 7 pb - 3 ap<< 3 Heath Shuler Redskins QB Tennessee >>4 Willie McGinest Patriots DE USC - 2 pb<< 5 Trev Alberts Colts LB Nebraska 6 Trent Dilfer Buccaneers QB Fresno State - 1 pb >> 7 Bryant Young 49ers DT Notre Dame - 4 pb - 1 ap<< >> 8 Sam Adams Seahawks DT Texas A&M - 3 pb<< 9 Antonio Langham Browns DB Alabama >> 10 Jamir Miller Cardinals LB UCLA - 1 pb - 1 ap<< --------------------------------- 11 John Thierry Bears DE Alcorn State >> 12 Aaron Glenn Jets DB Texas A&M - 3 pb<< >> 13 Joe Johnson Saints DE Louisville 2 pb<< 14 Bernard Williams Eagles T Georgia 15 Wayne Gandy Rams T Auburn 16 Aaron Taylor Packers T Notre Dame 17 Charles Johnson Steelers WR Colorado 18 DeWayne Washington Vikings DB North Carolina State >> 19 Todd Steussie Vikings T California - 2 pb<< >> 20 Tim Bowens Dolphins DT Mississippi 2 pb<< ========================================= 1995 - 4 - 5 - top 5 = 3 1 Ki-Jana Carter Bengals RB Penn State >> 2 Tony Boselli Jaguars T USC - 5 pb - 3 ap<< >>3 Steve McNair Oilers QB Alcorn State - 3 pb<< 4 Michael Westbrook Redskins WR Colorado >>5 Kerry Collins Panthers QB Penn State - 2 pb<< >> 6 Kevin Carter Rams DE Florida - 2 pb - 1ap<< 7 Mike Mamula Eagles DE Boston College 8 Joey Galloway Seahawks WR Ohio State 9 Kyle Brady Jets TE Penn State 10 J.J. Stokes 49ers WR UCLA -------------------------------------------- 11 Derrick Alexander Vikings DE Florida State >> 12 Warren Sapp Buccaneers DT Miami (FL) - 7 pb - 4 ap<< >>13 Mark Fields Saints LB Washington State - 2 pb<< >> 14 Reuben Brown Bills G Pittsburgh - 9 pb<< 15 Ellis Johnson Colts DT Florida >> 16 Hugh Douglas Jets DE Central State (OH) - 3 pb - 1 ap<< 17 Tyrone Wheatley Giants RB Michigan 18 Napoleon Kaufman Raiders RB Washington 19 James Stewart Jaguars RB Tennessee >> 20 Luther Elliss Lions DE Utah - 2 pb<< ========================================== 1996 - 5 - 2 - top 5 = 4 >> 1 Keyshawn Johnson Jets WR USC - 3 pb<< >> 2 Kevin Hardy Jaguars LB Illinois - 1 pb - 1 ap<< >> 3 Simeon Rice Cardinals DE Illinois - 3 pb 1 ap<< >> 4 Jonathan Ogden Ravens T UCLA - 11 pb - 4 ap<< 5 Cedric Jones Giants DE Oklahoma 6 Lawrence Phillips Rams RB Nebraska 7 Terry Glenn Patriots WR Ohio State - 1 pb 8 Tim Biakabutuka Panthers RB Michigan 9 Rickey Dudley Raiders TE Ohio State >>10 Willie Anderson Bengals T Auburn - 4 pb - 3 ap<< ----------------------------------------- 11 Alex Molden Saints DB Oregon 12 Regan Upshaw Buccaneers DE California 13 Walt Harris Bears DB Mississippi State >> 14 Eddie George Oilers RB Ohio State - 4 pb - 1 ap<< 15 John Mobley Broncos LB Kutztown (PA) - 1 ap 16 Duane Clemons Vikings DE California 17 Reggie Brown Lions LB Texas A&M 18 Eddie Kennison Rams WR LSU >> 19 Marvin Harrison Colts WR Syracuse - 8 pb - 3 ap<< 20 Daryl Gardener Dolphins DT Baylor ============================================== 1997 - 5 - 3 - top 5 = 3 >> 1 Orlando Pace Rams T Ohio State - 7 pb - 3 ap<< >> 2 Darrell Russell Raiders DT USC - 2 pb - 1 ap<< 3 Shawn Springs Seahawks DB Ohio State - 1 pb >> 4 Peter Boulware Ravens DE Florida State - 4 pb<< 5 Bryant Westbrook Lions DB Texas >> 6 Walter Jones Seahawks T Florida State - 8 pb - 4 ap<< 7 Ike Hilliard Giants WR Florida >>8 James Farrior Jets LB Virginia - 2 pb - 1 ap<< 9 TOM Knight Cards CB Iowa 10 Chris Naeole Saints G Colorado ------------------------------------------ 11 Michael Booker Falcons DB Nebraska >> 12 Warrick Dunn Buccaneers RB Florida State - 3 pb<< >> 13 Tony Gonzalez Chiefs TE California - 12 pb 5 ap<< 14 Reinard Wilson Bengals DE Florida State 15 Yatil Green Dolphins WR Miami (FL) 16 Reidel Anthony Buccaneers WR Florida 17 Kenard Lang Redskins DE Miami (FL) 18 Kenny Holmes Oilers DE Miami (FL) >>19 Tarik Glenn Colts T California - 3 pb<< 20 Dwayne Rudd Vikings LB Alabama ==================================== 1998 - 2 - 3 - top 5 = 2 >> 1 Peyton Manning Colts QB Tennessee - 11 pb - 5 ap<< 2 Ryan Leaf Chargers QB Washington State 3 Andre Wadsworth Cardinals DE Florida State >> 4 Charles Woodson Raiders DB Michigan - 8 pb - 3 ap<< 5 Curtis Enis Bears RB Penn State 6 Grant Wistrom Rams DE Nebraska 7 Kyle Turley Saints T San Diego State - 1 ap 8 Greg Ellis Cowboys DE North Carolina 9 Fred Taylor Jaguars RB Florida 10 Duane Starks Ravens DB Miami (FL) -------------------------------------- >> 11 Tra Thomas Eagles T Florida State - 3 pb<< >> 12 Keith Brooking Falcons LB Georgia Tech - 5 pb<< >>13 Takeo Spikes Bengals LB Auburn - 2 pb - 1 ap<< 14 Jason Peter Panthers DT Nebraska 15 Anthony Simmons Seahawks LB Clemson 16 Kevin Dyson Oilers WR Utah 17 Brian Simmons Bengals LB North Carolina 18 Robert Edwards Patriots RB Georgia 19 Vonnie Holliday Packers DT North Carolina 20 Terry Fair Lions DB Tennessee ====================================== 1999 - 7 - 2 - top 5 = 3 1 Tim Couch Browns QB Kentucky >>2 Donovan McNabb Eagles QB Syracuse 6 pb<< 3 Akili Smith Bengals QB Oregon >>4 Edgerrin James Colts RB Miami (FL) - 4 pr - 1 ap<< >>5 Ricky Williams Saints RB Texas - 1 pb - 1 ap<< >>6 Torry Holt Rams WR North Carolina State - 7 pb - 1 ap<< >>7 Champ Bailey Redskins DB Georgia - 11 pb - 3 ap<< >>8 David Boston Cardinals WR Ohio State - 1 pb - 1 ap<< 9 Chris Claiborne Lions LB USC >>10 Chris McAlister Ravens DB Arizona - 3 pb - 1 ap<< ------------------------------------------ >>11 Daunte Culpepper Vikings QB Central Florida 3 pb<< 12 Cade McNown Bears QB UCLA 13 Troy Edwards Steelers WR Louisiana Tech 14 John Tait Chiefs T Brigham Young 15 Anthony McFarland Buccaneers DT LSU >>16 Jevon Kearse Oilers LB Florida - 3 pb - 1 ap<< 17 Damien Woody Patriots C Boston College 18 Matt Stinchcomb Raiders T Georgia 19 Luke Petitgout Giants T Notre Dame 20 Ebenezer Ekuban Cowboys DE North Carolina ========================================= 2000 - 4 - 6 - top 5 = 3 1 Courtney Brown Browns DE Penn State >>2 LaVar Arrington Redskins LB Penn State - 3 pb<< >>3 Chris Samuels Redskins T Alabama - 6 pb<< 4 Peter Warrick Bengals WR Florida State >>5 Jamal Lewis Ravens RB Tennessee - 1 pb - 1 ap<< 6 Corey Simon Eagles DT Florida State 7 Thomas Jones Cardinals RB Virginia 8 Plaxico Burress Steelers WR Michigan State >>9 Brian Urlacher Bears LB New Mexico - 8 pb - 4 ap<< 10 Travis Taylor Ravens WR Florida --------------------------------------- 11 Ron Dayne Giants RB Wisconsin >>12 Shaun Ellis Jets DE Tennessee - 2 pb<< >>13 John Abraham Jets LB South Carolina - 4 pb - 2 ap<< >>14 Bubba Franks Packers TE Miami (FL) - 3 pb<< >>15 Deltha O'Neal Broncos DB California - 2 pb - 1 ap<< >>16 Julian Peterson 49ers LB Michigan State - 5 pb - 1 ap<< 17 Sebastian Janikowski Raiders K Florida State 18 Chad Pennington Jets QB Marshall >>19 Shaun Alexander Seahawks RB Alabama - 3 pb - 1 ap<< 20 Stockar McDougle Lions T Oklahoma ====================================== 2001 - 5 - 3 - top 5 = 4 >>1 Michael Vick Falcons QB Virginia Tech - 4 pb<< >>2 Leonard Davis Cardinals T Texas - 3 pb<< 3 Gerard Warren Browns DT Florida >>4 Justin Smith Bengals DE Missouri - 3 pb - 1 ap<< >>5 LaDainian Tomlinson Chargers RB Texas Christian - 5 pb - 3 ap<< >>6 Richard Seymour Patriots DT Georgia - 7 pb - 3 ap<< 7 Andre Carter 49ers DE California 8 David Terrell Bears WR Michigan 9 Koren Robinson Seahawks WR North Carolina State 10 Jamal Reynolds Packers DE Florida State ---------------------------------------------- 11 Dan Morgan Panthers LB Miami (FL) 12 Damione Lewis Rams DT Miami (FL) >>13 Marcus Stroud Jaguars DT Georgia - 3 pb<< 14 Kenyatta Walker Buccaneers T Florida 15 Rod Gardner Redskins WR Clemson 16 Santana Moss Jets WR Miami (FL) >>17 Steve Hutchinson Seahawks G Michigan - 7 pb - 5 ap<< 18 Jeff Backus Lions T Michigan >>19 Casey Hampton Steelers DT Texas - 5 pb<< 20 Adam Archuleta Rams DB Arizona State ========================================== 2002 - 3 - 3 - top 5 = 1 1 David Carr Texans QB Fresno State >>2 Julius Peppers Panthers DE North Carolina - 6 pb - 3 ap<< 3 Joey Harrington Lions QB Oregon 4 Mike Williams Bills T Texas 5 Quentin Jammer Chargers DB Texas 6 Ryan Sims Chiefs DT North Carolina 7 Bryant McKinnie Vikings T Miami (FL) >>8 Roy Williams Cowboys DB Oklahoma - 5 pb - 1 ap<< >>9 John Henderson Jaguars DT Tennessee - 2 pb<< 10 Levi Jones Bengals T Arizona State ------------------------------------- >>11 Dwight Freeney Colts LB Syracuse - 7 pb - 3 ap<< 12 Wendell Bryant Cardinals DT Wisconsin 13 Donte Stallworth Saints WR Tennessee >>14 Jeremy Shockey Giants TE Miami (FL) 4 pb - 1 ap<< >>15 Albert Haynesworth Titans DT Tennessee - 2 pb - 2 ap<< 16 William Green Browns RB Boston College 17 Phillip Buchanon Raiders DB Miami (FL) 18 T.J. Duckett Falcons RB Michigan State 19 Ashley Lelie Broncos WR Hawaii 20 Javon Walker Packers WR Florida State ============================================ 2003 - 7 - 2 - top 5 = 3 >>1 Carson Palmer Bengles QB USC - 2 pb<< 2 Charles Rogers Detroit WR Michigan State >>3 Andre Johnson Houston WR Miami (Fla.) - 5 pb - 2 ap<< 4 Dewayne Robertson NYJ DT Kentucky >>5 Terence Newman Dallas CB Kansas State - 2 pb<< 6 Johnathan Sullivan Saints DT Georgia 7 Byron Leftwich Jaguars QB Marshall >>8 Jordan Gross Panthers OT Utah - 2 pb - 1 pb<< >>9 Kevin Williams Vikings DT Oklahoma State - 6 pb - 5 ap<< >>10 Terrell Suggs Ravens DE Arizona State - 5 pb - 1 ap<< -------------------------------------------- 11 Marcus Trufant Seahawks CB Washington State 12 Jimmy Kennedy Rams DT Penn State 13 Ty Warren Patriots DT Texas A&M 14 Michale Haynes Bears DE Penn State 15 Jerome McDougle Eagles DE Miami (Fla.) >>16 Troy Polamalu Steelers SS Southern California - 7 pb - 4 ap<< 17 Bryant Johnson Cards WR Penn State 18 Calvin Pace Cards DE Wake Forest 19 Kyle Boller Ravens QB California 20 George Foster Broncos OT Georgia ==================================================== 2004 - 5 - 4 - top 5 = 4 >>1 Eli Manning Chargers QB Mississippi - 2 pb<< 2 Robert Gallery Raiders OT Iowa >>3 Larry Fitzgerald Cards WR Pittsburgh - 6 pb - 1 ap<< >>4 Philip Rivers Giants/Chargers QB North Carolina State - 4 pb<< >>5 Sean Taylor Redskins DB Miami (FL) - 2 pb<< 6 Kellen Winslow II Browns (from Detroit) TE Miami (FL) 7 Roy Williams Lions (from Cleveland) WR Texas >>8 DeAngelo Hall Falcons DB Virginia Tech - 3 pb<< 9 Reggie Williams Jaguars WR Washington 10 Dunta Robinson Texans DB South Carolina -------------------------------------------------- >>11 Ben Roethlisberger Steelers QB Miami (OH) - 2 pb<< >>12 Jonathan Vilma NYJ LB Miami (FL) - 2 pb<< 13 Lee Evans Bills WR Wisconsin >>14 Tommie Harris Bears DT Oklahoma - 3 pb<< 15 Michael Clayton Bucs WR LSU >>16 Shawn Andrews Eagles (from San Francisco) OT Arkansas = 2 pb - 1 ap<< 17 D.J. Williams Broncos (from Cincinnati) LB Miami (FL) 18 Will Smith Saints DE Ohio State 19 Vernon Carey Miami (from Minnesota) OT Miami (FL) 20 Kenechi Udeze Vikings (from Miami) DE USC ================================================ 2005 - 1 - 4 - top 5 = 0 1 Alex Smith Niners QB Utah 2 Ronnie Brown Miami RB Auburn 3 Braylon Edwards Browns WR Michigan 4 Cedric Benson Bears RB Texas 5 Cadillac Williams Bucs RB Auburn 6 Pacman Jones Titans CB West Virginia 7 Troy Williamson Vikings WR South Carolina >>8 Antrel Rolle Cards DB Miami (Fla.) - 2 pb<< 9 Carlos Rogers Skins DB Auburn 10 Mike Williams Lions WR USC ----------------------------------------------- >>11 DeMarcus Ware Cowboys OLB Troy State - 6 pb - 4 ap<< >>12 Shawne Merriman Chargers OLB Maryland - 3 pb - 1 ap<< >>13 Jammal Brown Saints T Oklahoma - 2 pb - 1 ap<< 14 Thomas Davis Panthers DB Georgia >>15 Derrick Johnson Chiefs OLB Texas - 1 pb - 1 ap<< 16 Travis Johnson Texans DT Florida State 17 David Pollack Bengals LB Georgia 18 Erasmus James Vikings DE Wisconsin 19 Alex Barron Rams T Florida State 20 Marcus Spears Cowboys DE Louisiana State ==================================================== 2006 - 3 - 2 - top 5 = 3 >>1 Mario Williams Texans DE North Carolina State - 2 pb<< 2 Reggie Bush Saints RB USC >>3 Vince Young Titans QB Texas - 2 pb<< >>4 D'Brickashaw Ferguson Jets T Virginia - 3 pb<< 5 A.J. Hawk Packers OLB Ohio State 6 Vernon Davis Niners TE Maryland 7 Michael Huff Raiders SS Texas 8 Donte Whitner Bills SS Ohio State 9 Ernie Sims Lions OLB Florida State 10 Matt Leinart Cards QB USC ----------------------------------------------------- 11 Jay Cutler Broncos QB Vanderbilt >>12 Haloti Ngata Ravems DT Oregon - 3 pb - 2 ap<< 13 Kamerion Wimbley Browns OLB Florida State 14 Brodrick Bunkley Eagles DT Florida State 15 Tye Hill Rams CB Clemson 16 Jason Allen Miami DB Tennessee 17 Chad Greenway Vikings LB Iowa 18 Bobby Carpenter Cowboys LB Ohio State >>19 Antonio Cromartie Chargers CB Florida State - 1 pb - 1 ap<< 20 Tamba Hali Chiefs DE Penn State ==================================================== 2007 - 3 - 2 - top 5 = 2 1 JaMarcus Russell Raiders QB Louisiana State >>2 Calvin Johnson Lions WR Georgia Tech - 2 pb - 1 ap<< >>3 Joe Thomas Browns OT Wisconsin - 5 pb - 3 ap<< 4 Gaines Adams Bucs DE Clemson 5 Levi Brown Cards OT Penn State 6 LaRon Landry Skins SS Louisiana State >>7 Adrian Peterson Vikings RB Oklahoma - 4 pb - 2 ap<< 8 Jamaal Anderson Falcons DE Arkansas 9 Ted Ginn Jr. Miami WR Ohio State 10 Amobi Okoye Texans DT Louisville --------------------------------------------------- >>11 Patrick Willis Niners ILB Mississippi - 5 pb - 4 ap<< 12 Marshawn Lynch Bills RB California 13 Adam Carriker Rams NT Nebraska >>14 Darrelle Revis Jets CB Pittsburgh - 4 pb - 3 ap<< 15 Lawrence Timmons Steelers LB Florida State 16 Justin Harrell Packers DT Tennessee 17 Jarvis Moss Broncos DE Florida 18 Leon Hall Bengals CB Michigan 19 Michael Griffin Titans FS Texas 20 Aaron Ross Giants CB Texas ==================================================== ==================== i dont think anyone (or at least myself) is trying to imply that if you pick in the top 5 or 10 that you are guaranteed a high impact player with that pick. the lists i posted clearly show that. but... i think what it does show is that you have a much better chance at achieving the goal of every organization by picking in these slots than in lower ones. to aquire a franchise player it can't just be determined by money vs. reward risk when you draft. otherwise why even draft at all in the first round? you will end up like the redskins under the former bear dc george allen and even without the the salary cap at that time it just didn't work. drafting high... will you miss sometimes? absolutely! but the old saying if you DON'T try you will NEVER succeed. if teams that draft consistanly in the top 5 spots can afford it every year why can't the bear organization in the few times over decades afford it? i think the fact that this franchise has had TWO quality qb's (one was a free agent) in 40 years speaks volumes of the risk reward consequences. these are some interesting draft stats. below are chicago bear hall of fame players and where they were drafted: HOF 1st round top 10 picks 1. Clyde Bulldog Turner 7th pick 1st round 2. Joe Stydahar 6th pick 1st round 3. Gayle Sayers 4th pick 1st round 4. Walther Payton 4th pick 1st round 5. Dan Hampton 4th pick 1st round 6. George McAfee 2nd pick 1st round (drafted by eagles and immediately traded to bears) 7. Sid Luckman 2nd pick 1st round 8. Mike Ditka 5th pick 1st round 9. George Connor 5th pick 1st round (drafted by ny giants) 10. Dick Butkus 3rd pick 1st round 11. Dan Hampton 4th pick 1st round HOF 1st round picks 11 - + 1. Doug Atkins 11th pick 1st round HOF later rounds 1. Mike Singletary 38th pick 2nd round 3. Bill George 2nd round 2. Stan Jones 5th round 6. Richard Dent 8th round 4. Danny Fortmann 9th round pick 5. George Blanda 12th round HOF not listed as draft picks. prior to 1936 1. Bronco Nagurski 2. George Musso 3. Roy Lyman 4. Bill Hewitt 5. Ed Healey 6. George Halas 7. John Driscol

this is my take.... i did a lot of research over 10 years ago on the relationship to elite players/qb's and it came up real similar to phx's research. most sb winning teams without elite or at the least VERY GOOD + qb's usually do not enjoy multiple superbowls. it's a one and done. look at the teams with multiple superbowl appearances and you will find (i am assuming this) they had the quality qb to get them there. there are a number of factors that come into play for superbowl qb's. 1. the qb's FIRST have to get their teams there. without that elite qb are you going to win the division to even get in the running for a championship game consistently? or at worst be eligible for the wildcard spots? 2. it also adds up to what seed you are going to fall under. do you have any bye weeks in the playoffs. are you playing home games? the strength of the teams you open against before the championship game. these are all very important. so it's not just the sb winner but the teams that are always in the hunt to get there. 3. the nfl cap and rules have changed so much over the past 2 or 3 decades in favor of offense that it just isn't feasible to rely on a defense more than once to even get you there. so yes, in my opinion, it is critical to have that top tier qb to even consistently give your franchise an edge to attain a playoff berth.

agree. teams should be able to challenge penalties AND penalties not called if it is flagrant. maybe each team gets two extra penalty flags along with game flags.

i just don't believe that anymore. i have seen reviews by the booth that clearly show one outcome and yet they call another. other officials are either in on the fix or else they will not contradict the one in question or are completely incompetent. EDIT: or are not in position to make a call on that play. also, the booth does NOT as far as i know review non flagged penalties. or even any penalties?

1. shaving points to appease las vegas and online gambling? 2. shaving points to create certain matchups the NFL wants to see in the playoffs and superbowls which garner the NFL corporation higher monetary income? 3. planned rule incompetence by the NFL where league game rules make every play optional to throw or not throw a flag by every official (and the call is justified) to create more interest and money for team markets? 4. individual officials intending to throw games or shave points for their own monetary gains? 5. complete and utter incompetence by the NFL in hiring these part time employee's taking away the spotlight from other NFL corp. problems or policies? 6. NFL corporation, a multi billion dollar business, is too CHEAP to hire full-time COMPETENT professional officials to regulate games? case example: last nights packers vs KC game. 1. extremely poor call of PI against the chiefs. a chiefs receiver barely touches a defender and in no way possible is this offensive pass interference. yet the call is made. this kills a first down and drive by KC and literally takes away a possible score from the chiefs in packer territory. 2. not one but TWO missed calls of PI against green bay in the closing seconds of the game. a) the one was incredibly obvious inside the 10 yd line. with the official less than 10 yards away, looking right at the receiver being manhandled and knocked down before the pass even gets to him, he calls it an incomplete pass. anybody who has ever watched a football game in their life gets that call right. pass interference, first and goal. yet.... nothing. b) same final series... hail mary into the endzone. kelse going up for the reception gets PUSHED from behind and ends up on the ground. CLEARLY pass interference. ball should be on the one yard line first and goal. these officials should be getting their final paycheck along with the pink slip this morning and the league should be investigating these officials for gambling or other crimes. it's becoming obvious to the fans (even to the slow witted ones) that there is something rotten in Denmark. does some, or all-of-the-above, ring true that this sport is turning into all star wrestling and each game has a high percentage of having a predictable outcome? wouldn't it be nice if you went to vegas with a guaranteed 70% chance of knowing what slot the roulette ball will bounce into? of course it would. yet right now, officials are major factors in who wins and who loses each and every game in the NFL. it's like having the 12th man on the field for whatever team these individuals or entities wish to win. making the wrong (right) call during a game at critical junctures or not making a call at critical junctures is all too common of an occurrence to be just randomly poor officiating. i have watched multiple games over the last few decades (every single week if you watch) where a single obvious call or non-call determines who wins and loses. the calls i am talking about are clearly seen by the officials who are standing only a few feet away and looking right at the infraction or non-infraction. unless they are legally blind it just doesn't add up as random poor calls. thus 'is the fix in?' does the NFL just think fans are too stupid to see it or even care? ask yourself, why are officials not hired full time? why do they do this in their spare time while working at other jobs? why are officials not held accountable for their poor officiating? like being fired by the NFL and investigated after the game. makes ya wonder doesn't it? there needs to be some investigative reporting done on this to hold the league responsible.

in my opinion fields missed st. brown at LEAST twice for huge gains/TD. the guy was wide open downfield. another time with mooney downfield wide open. i don't know if st. brown has some kind of invisibility cloak or what but those were the throws that should have been made. i also see fields scrambling out of the pocket on a couple of plays for no reason. he was getting good blocking. zero TD's in a game like this especially with the fantastic field position the bears had throughout the game is certainly not anything to brag about. as far as fields goes? i want to see him the rest of the season to make a real determination, but from what i have seen so far, the ceiling of his future career is he is an average to good qb at best. NOT elite in anything i have seen.

i agree but i would add this to a #1 pick... offensive left tackle and a killer sack machine defensive end.

OK, my evaluation of this guy... if he were from a large college program and drafted in the top 5 everyone, media and fans, would be gushing/touting how good he is and how good his progress is going. three games he has played in the regular season and to me it is astounding as to how poised, accurate and smart of a player this kid is. he is looking at the field as a seasoned qb would. he is processing information in an astounding rate for a rookie. the int's? of course they are going to happen. what would matter to me is with a season of starts how he improves at reading the defense at a pro level. i think he could do it. i really don't see the criticism on how weak an arm he has. the ball gets there in a hurry. he is hitting receivers in stride. his long balls are a matter of timing but they are certainly accurate. can he kneel on the 50 yd line and throw a ball through the goal posts? no. but with experience he can hit the receivers 20-30+ yds downfield. that is enough for me. how many qb's have we seen with these super arms fail because of the mental processing at an nfl level? i am seeing a kid who is not just a good backup but a GOOD+ to VERY GOOD+ starting qb in the nfl within the next 5 years. whether he pans out or not i think the potential of this kid is the moon.

in professional and in collegiate sports it is stealing. PROFESSIONAL: like belly he cheated with the pats. he STOLE money right out of other players, coaches and franchise owners pockets. he replaced deserving teams a possible playoff birth including a superbowl. these are extra game paydays for each player and coach (possible bonus money). it also robs them of commercial endorsements which could be worth millions. so HIM and the entire organization profited by cheating. you can add to that the money lost by the effected franchise's home town during these playoff games and or superbowl appearance. it also would reach into the millions for lost revenue. that is stealing in anybodies book. COLLEGIATE: by whatever method he used to cheat and defraud college football he cost the school's he played against cash money through bowl game money and player acquisitions in the future. by winning games and bowls he enhanced the recruiting of future players to come to his school. the spotlight and recognition of other teams players in regards to possible draft status could have cost the players millions upon reaching the nfl draft. that is stealing from your peers.

i am with you on that. i don't think he has all of his kinnicks. add to that he is a cheater which relates to me as a thief. he has stolen from his peers.

any coach can look excellent if you have a HOF qb in brady for nearly 20 years and a HOF candidate in bledsoe for 2 before that (even that idiot mike mccarthy from the packers). add to that if you cheat and get away with it for nearly that entire time line in new england to win divisions and SB's it gives you the 'apparent' look of success that you don't deserve. look at his resume before new england. that is the proof in the pudding.

The man did a lot in his life to even get to the point of being considered for a head coaching position in the NFL. what he accomplished as a player is totally deserved. he was a great player. as a coach? not so much. Again, the list of people who have been considered for head coaching positions is much shorter than the list of people who have opinions about football and coaches. there are dozens + of coaches considered for HC jobs that are terrible head coaches. just in recent memory coaches related to chicago... abe giibron, mike ditka, buddy ryan, dave wanstedt, dick jauron, marc tressman, matt nagy, rod marinelli. if not for begging halas for a job would he have ever even been considered as a HC after 9 years in dallas? i doubt it. if you want to judge a career you have to consider all the facts. what did he do in chicago once ryan left and the finks talent got older? what coaching talent did he bring in or recommend to management? what did he do with the new player talent that came into chicago once mcmahon and walter were gone? other than brow beat his players AND the coaches on the sidelines and in the media it was very little. then consider his career in new orleans as HC/GM. what a complete disaster that showed how really flawed this guy was as a HC and a GM. so no, i don't think he was even a good HC let alone a great one. It is easy to have an opinion, the old saying that everyone has one springs to mind. Criticising accomplished people and dismissing them entirely is not a reflection of reality. it IS a reflection on reality to make real judgements on what you actually see and hear in REAL time in real life with real people and not media hype BS or some SNL skit.

if you don't even read it closely why waste my time and the rest of the people viewing this? what results are refutable? he was a HC that got one superbowl ring? real facts? of course i don't have real facts. riddle me this... how is that even possible to have facts in this discussion? it's MY opinion like it or not.

if we had hired ryan as HC it would have ended in failure like his other gigs IMO. some guys just don't cut it as HC's but make stellar co-ordinators. i look at 85 as us winning a SB in spite of ditka. i didn't know it at the time but watching him fail for 5 straight years was enough to show me he was so over rated as a coach it wasn't funny. the crazy antics he pulled on the team post 85 was ridiculous. he was in it for the money and ego for sure in those years.

i agree with almost all you said. the mccaskey's have been a detriment since muggs halas died and isn't much, if any, better now. we put up with mikey for over 20 years of abject failure that dragged this team into the garbage. i don't like harbaugh much. i think he is about half baked but if they brought him in and he wins i would support that. imo i really think he's nuts. sanders? i don't know. not enough experience as a coach yet? whatever kind of coach we get HAS to hold the players and assistants accountable. that i do agree on. i have been touting an offensive HC for a long, long time. then trestman comes in and nagy. yikes, i don't know what to think anymore. seems like other teams get the gold and we get the shaft. ownership has really helped that case along. by the way, nearing 60 years as a fan. butkus brought me into the nfl fold.

uhhh... didn't you read my previous post? you can say ANYTHING you want about ryan being a HC. he was terrible. but nobody can take away his DC ability as a freaking genius. credit for what? pounding square pegs into round holes with a sledge hammer and 'being tough'?? so what if he was a disciplinarian. ANY mediocre coach could have surpassed his accomplishments with the talent on that team. his ranting on young players on the sidelines AND in the media is no help developing players at all. his my way or the highway? it's laughable. he might have gotten away with it with some of the strong personality vets because they knew enough just to ignore him. but young developing players? not so much. everyone knew his main objective was the almighty dollar. how do you think that played out to a team like that? do you think some of them figured if he's doing it i might as well too? that's losing focus on what you are there for. quite frankly he was an idiot that had no real qualifications to be an OC let alone a HC to anyone besides GSH who probably hired him because that's ALL he ever hired as coaches was former bear players or former bear coaches. plus dika probably was hire for pennies on the dollar by halas.

i have to respectfully disagree. he doesn't deserve credit, he just got it from the media for that ONE superbowl. if it was a fair evaluation he squandered the talent on that team with his stubborn nonsense (just ONE example... can you say flutie?). on the defensive side the players paid absolutely no attention to ditka. it was ryans show completely. that is why they put him on their shoulders after superbowl XX. there were two head coaches there until ryan left (ryan actually hated ditka and it showed). even jim mcmahon thought ditka was an idiot. he just had the balls to tell ditka to stuff it and do it his way. speaking of mcmahon, his attitude brought the whole team up and got them fired up more than ditka ever did (maybe a hampton exception LOL). after XX ditka was more interested in making a dollar and making the talk shows than winning another one. he gets no credit from me.

ditka was a terrible coach. he was a DETRIMENT rather than an asset. without buddy ryans defensive genius he would have gone nowhere even with all the HOF/pro-bowl talent jim finks drafted. jim finks left because GSH (decades past any modern NFL competence), forced ditka as the head coach on finks. with all the talent ditka had, he let his ego, bluster and all-me attitude run this team into the ground. one superbowl with the quality talent he had to work with was criminal. throw in a complete imbecile in mike mccasky trying to play genius GM, they screwed us out of at LEAST 1-3 more superbowl rings. jim finks and venessi sp? along with buddy ryan (a defensive genius and HORRIBLE head coach) are the reason we even won ONE superbowl. ditka was just a distraction. if mugs halas hadn't died we never would have seen ditka in chicago.

i usually don't either but this guy is a waste of oxygen as a human being. whatever bad karma he gets he deserves.

couldn't happen to a better player and a better franchise. too bad - LOL also i believe it stops the packers from the jets first round pick which rogers had to start so many games. another LOL

this bothered me also. we should have been in a hurry-up offense nearly the entire 2nd half. the huddle up and meander to the LOS in the position they were in was ludicrous. where was our elite WR? this guy is a player yet all we do is throw these dink and dunk passes that do nothing to put us back into the game.... uhhh, what a hot mess

the next four games will decide where we go from here. this is sad if it doesn't work out because i like fields. he's a nice kid and he works as hard as any player i have seen to become better. i just don't think it is going to happen anymore. he has all the tools except one, the ability to process information in 3D quickly enough. i really hope i am wrong about this.

this is as bad as any game last season. i don't know if getsy is calling the garbage we saw or if it's a check down from fields. whatever the case this dink and dunk crap is an absolute joke. when you are down like they were and you can't even open up the field with some downfield passes speaks volumes. fields will get about 4 more games to turn this around. personally i don't think he can. i don't think he is processing information fast enough to even be an above average qb let alone a franchise qb. i don't know about his accuracy because we never throw it further than 5 yds. by week 10 we will see bagette so we know where we are drafting a qb next season.

is ANY unit playing professional football today? it's deja' vu all over again. maybe we can get the first AND second pick in the draft DISGUSTING