Alaskan Grizzly

Sorry but to some extent I have to side with TT. He sides with many who think the OL could use some help and others (as myself) that think the Bears could use some help in the WR dept. Although his retort nor his "voice" is the most PC (ergo childish) his opinions are still valid. He's been this way as long as I've been around and actually has gotten better the last year or so. Post on brother, just remember that kids might be watching.

Allright MadLith (and all other non-Lovie advocates), I will concede that if Lovie and Co. cannot pull it together this year and at the very least make it to the playoffs, away he (and they) go. With the additions of Peppers, Taylor, Manumaleuena (sp?), Cutler and who else??? then there is absolutely no excuse the Bears should not be contenders for the upcoming year...or for a few afterwards. This is another fantastic day in Bears history.

Atogwe would probably be a nice pickup too, especially given the monetary factor. But if for nothing else the fact the Bears are working on securing higher caliber FA's is in itself, encouraging. Guess things will be interesting this time tomorrow.

http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/2010/...me-quickly.html This is very encouraging!!!

Everything he's done since is not too shabby, even with a shortened 2008 season. As far as making the catches, he has proven that he can do it; down the sideline, over the middle whatever. I don't think "getting more" attention would diminish his ability as it stands now. Especially when opponents have players like Aromashadu and Knox lining up on the field. Too many people to cover of varying talents.

Sounds like a deal to me. Since Olsen is so dis-enamoured with being in Chicago now that Martz is there, maybe they (AZ) would consider a straight up swap out. I don't like losing Olsen as much as the next guy but he is starting to sound like the "me-first" type that NFLingo is trying to convince me TJ is.

I don't think I misunderstood. My post originally had to do with how I would like a lot to see TJ return to the Bears and how I thought he was a "consummate professional". My thought when I considered the word "consummate" was that he was near the complete package when it came to a team player and top performer. I don't know much about his personal character (which in today's world of felons and other suspended NFL players should weigh somehow) other than I have a hard time finding where it is he "complains" about much. His actions are most definitely louder than his words, especially on the field. His leadership is more the "lead by example" rather than the screaming and rabid type similar to Ray Lewis, he continues to perform (as I mentioned earlier for the last 5 years) even as he eclipses 30, where other "greats" start to show wear. As far as mentoring...not sure I follow you there. Where have you heard he was contrary? I remember him many times during games being one of the first to pat Cedric on the back when he did well or even when he didn't. What was being said? Probably words of encouragement would be my guess. Benson was a turd...plain and simple. Was Thomas a turd when he started out, perhaps but all I know is the current (last 6 years) TJ and he seems to be a pretty good product. Maybe consummate was too strong a word, especially if you use its synonym of "perfect". How about perennial?

I will admit I was wrong about the "trade versus release" part of my original post. However, I still stand by my thought of how Jones does not deserve what he is NOT getting in a long term deal somewhere. First, I am not surprised to see "nflongo" one of the first to call me out but again this is the place to do it yes? Then to use Benson as an example of a player Jones didn't work well with is poor. How many posters on here thought Benson was a bust, how many posted pictures of him running through the hole with his eyes closed and how about TerraTor's avatar with Benson's mug shot and a quote "I have nothing to prove"? Are you kidding me? Jones made Benson out to be the bad guy? Is it possible that maybe Benson was immature and refused to listen to Jones about advice he might have dispensed and because the Bears put a premium on Benson that Jones felt himself expendable? What I think some are assuming is a disgruntled player are mistaking for a player who simply wants long term security. Ask one player who is ok with a short term deal and I'll show you a player that must have chronic injuries that has yet to start for an NFL team or is at the end of their career. As far as the New York atmosphere... http://content.usatoday.com/communities/th...e-locker-room/1 And you can go to most of their posting sites and a fair number of the Jets fans are not happy about Jones leaving. Especially with the uncertainty of Shonn Greene and the injury to Leon Washington. Sure, as Chile pointed out, the players quoted were not "fellow RB's" but who was quoted when Jones left the Bears? TJ continues to produce, especially in his early 30's where others continue to falter. http://bleacherreport.com/articles/355198-...homas-jones-now Again, I say all he wants (IMHO) is a place to stay and retire with a respectable career. Maybe San Diego is the place for him after all but I for one am still good for him to return to Chitown.

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/jets/jets_a...LPbOr7uPJ4GY3LI Pretty good article about how once again Thomas Jones is getting another raw deal. I would be more than OK if the Bears wanted to bring back Jones to finish out his career. He easily has another decent 3-4 years in him. They guy has only rushed for at least 1,000 yards the last 5 years (to include his last 2 for Chicago). Jones is one of those consummate professionals who I really never understood his being released from Chicago, especially since the Benson experiment never worked out.

I thought WAS was working on a deal for Campbell to BUFF for Whitner and a draft pick but the Shannahan says he wants to keep Campbell (and Portis). I think regardless of what Snyder may want to do Shannahan isn't the type that appears to go in like gangbusters and spend spend spend. He's more calculated than that. Hence why I would hesitate in calling Peppers a Redskin just yet. You did say Cutler was "stolen" from WAS so who says it can't happen again? And as far as CHI appearing cheap, I usually would tend to agree but I think it is mistaken for loyalty. The Bears staff (Angelo in particular) prides itself with resigning players before anything else. That would be one reason I disagree with signing one big name (Peppers) not necessarily being enough. I think they could do better than expected with what they have, and a few tweaks, on Defense. The attention needs to be on Offense.

Sign him up and "git 'er done"!

Yeah that confidence is blinding them to the future. Why not just offer him the contract ahead of time (or perhaps they already did and he refused) and go with someone they know can perform rather than pin hopes on a "high draft"?

Well I couldn't disagree more, especially on how the Bears might "need him". As far as the "1-2 punch", I would much rather go with someone younger and more durable to fill that role, possbly Bell??? The part of his "pass protection" abilities in and of itself negates the Bears looking his way as he was "...over-used" in Philadelphia. I mean, how effective could he be as a pass protector if he is as worn down or "over used" as you suggest? Naw thanks. Again I will say; great guy and player but not what the Bears need.

If Sproles became available, at a reasonale amount, then he would be a good option. What the heck is San Diego up to? Who are they gonna have at RB next year? As far as Westbrook, no thanks. Like I said earlier, he is a great guy but really can't contribute especially given his injury history. I do find it ironic that some would consider Westbrook, with his injuries and being a more "seasoned" vet but when players like Holt (older vet) and Boldin ("injury-prone") are mentioned they are both dismissed for the same reasons. Hmm....

In case you didn't hear, or know it was coming, Brian Westbrook was released (?) earlier today from the Philadelphia Eagles. Link.... http://www.philly.com/inquirer/breaking/sp..._Westbrook.html Weird thing I saw on NFL Network was something about how his release wouldn't go into effect until start of the next season(?). Don't understand. Is that so he can retire or something? And no this is not a post to advocate the Bears try and sign him. He's a great guy but not needed, just like LT.

Would the same hold true if Cutler had been injured at the beginning of the season, unable to play for the remainder of the year? In order to bomb I would think that he would have had to had the chance, as did Pace, to play the full year and not really show any contribution. The fact that he fell injured twice, I might add, doesn't really constitute utter failure as you suggest. Instead, if he were to return to the field this year and not do anything or fall injured again, then maybe I would cast the light of failure upon him. Or that he has considerably bad luck. However, based upon not only his past but his desire to do well for the Bears, I feel he has not yet "bombed".

Remember we are in the "silly season" of the NFL.... This article in relation to the Ruskell hiring and the possible acquisition of???? http://blog.seattlepi.com/football/archives/194687.asp

You forgot about Tinoisomoa. Hasn't bombed but still undetermined.... Holt would still be able to contribute in other ways, not necessarily as just a receiver. Think on the field coach. By the by, no thanks on Bulger. Good kid but the Bears don't need him. I think Hanie is suitable. He reminds me a lot of Orton.

One VERY good reason why Holt would be a good addition to the Bears roster. I don't think that it would need to be any longer than one year so that he could "help" out and nurture the youngsters. Do it.

I think it's getting close to the time to put this horse to rest. It looks as though the more we disagree, the more we actually agree. Oddly enough....and hence why I elimintated the first half of the reply. We are at an impasse with most of those points it would appear. Our agreement was to the statment you made of "developing young players" and that you were good with that. We differ in that I feel it possible to do this with some of the folks on OL, DL and Safety where you think it possible only with WR. I see and understand what it is you have written, and appreciate it all. Again, this was to start another perspective look at if we are collectively acceptable to the idea of developing talent at the WR position then why don't we afford that to the positions that most are concerned with? That being DL, OL and FS. It seems silly to overlook the possible talent in the pool and cast the line elsewhere and catching another unknown especially at 3rd round. But then again a fair number here don't think the coaching staff does all that good at judging players and properly placing them. However, that is another discussion entirely.

Your writing suggests tha I am here to just start trouble, when in fact, as I stated before all I'm doing is trying to stimulate conversation. I DO BELIEVE a lot of what I am writing and BELIEVE that many "unknown" players can become "known" as you have indicated that you believe the WR's on the staff have done. With Idonije, who signed on with the Bears in '04 I would still consider him a raw talent in that he hasn't been developed to his potential. Watching him play, especially these last few years, he appears to be steadily improving. On Brown I am not sure what your exact problem with him is. Getting "about 6 sacks" is pretty good, better than none. And then as if to prove your point of how bad he is you state "he is a solid all around DE". Again, what else do you need? Good question, if the current players (all included) that are on the roster are not the answer, what is the solution? For the most part we agree on this aspect except for "they are all SS". The only listing the team roster has them is as S not FS or SS. And, as you mentioned earlier, the Tampa 2 is designed for more a two FS system (coverage and much rotation or movement) which again, Steltz handled ok toward the end of the season and Afalava earlier in the season. the part we do agree on is having a player like Rhodes join the team. Again, we agree on something. On the Bears lineup in 2-3 years from now I could envision (from L-R); Williams, Beekman, Kreutz*, Garza, Shaffer-maybe. *With Kreutz I differ from your perspective that he is at the end or his career. Nearer than when he started, yes but not AT the end. Just for "oops and giggles" some other Centers out there: Kevin Mawae (Tenn) drafted in 1994 age 39, Jeff Saturday (Ind) drafted in 1998 age 34, Kreutz drafted 1998 age 32 and Shaun Ohara (NYG) drafted in 2000 age 32. Of the other three I listed I would be interested in your perspective on how faded they might be considering you have a player like 2,000 yard rusher Chris Johnson in Tennessee, Peyton Manning (who can stand around all day) in Indianapolis and the likes of Brandon Jacobs, Ahmad Bradshaw and Eli Manning in NY. I think Kreutz easily has another 3-4 years left in him. When was that again? Preseason? You almost contradict your own thought in that you earlier state that you have concerns with the Bears developing (or allowing to develop) 6th and 7th round picks along the OL but then are OK with a 5th rounder doing so. Again, and most of the point of this whole "debate" is why can't the same opportunity be afforded for these other young players?

Again, about the WR staff. I am not at all sold completely on Hester as one let alone in "up" category. Otherwise, fair assessment. Kreutz still has it and if he doesn't then Beekman is noted as both G/C if really need be. Why don't you mention any of the others on the roster? Probably because they are "unknown". Can't really appraise what you haven't seen, I understand. FS: Not true. Please refer to earlier reference. And as far as SS: same there. As I mentioned earlier, I will go with the team needing more depth only because there is a small number of safeties listed. I think someone mentioned that FS Kerry Rhodes (currently of the NYJ) could be had for the right deal. The more I look at it, the more I like it.

NFO, maybe you missed the title of my original post. And just so we are clear here is the actual definition from Dictionary.com: (n) a person who advocates an opposing or unpopular cause for the sake of argument or to expose it to a thorough examination. Although I originally posted because I wanted to go the route of "thorough examination" I am ok with the constant title of "sake of argument". Again, this is a place to debate, discuss and otherwise contemplate all that is Bears, or so I've been told. I deleted the WR "discussion" for now. As this seems to be ongoing here and elsewhere.... You forgot about Israel Idonije, Anthony Adams and Matt Toeaina (sp). How do these guys figure in? They aren't all that horrible. Adams played the full season and did pretty good. I still think he would make a pretty decent NT, if the Bears ran that form of Defense. Idonije is raw and pretty decent himself. Proven a lot on special teams. Not so sure your assessment of Alex Brown is accurate. Brown is a consistent player who makes plays on a regular basis (although not every down). Harris has always been an under performer for some reason. Not because he is a bad player, because he chooses to be. If I recollect he does better when Urlacher plays. Hmm... What do you need a Jared Allen or Dwight Freeney? Those players are few and far between and by the way, will cost a ton to retain. Those currently on the Bears staff are really not that bad. And yes, I do believe that. Actually both are listed as just Safety on the roster. And, Steltz was drafted to be the starting FS out of LSU and Afalava played FS at Oregon. So, not sure what you mean that they aren't capable. If you are referring to Chris Harris; what was wrong with Harris? He actually played pretty well and has done so since going back to the Panthers. And Payne, actually, is listed as the starting SS so I'll agree that he isn't the solution to FS. But, if you believe it's because the team is needing depth (only 5 Safeties listed) then yes it would be a good idea to draft or go FA. But you never answered my question in the first place. How do you or I know these guys aren't capable? What do you need a complete rebuild? If 4 of 5 are performing as needed then how many replacements do you need? I don't get the concept of "replacing or rebuilding the Oline". How many times did you hear analysts say last season's OL didn't have time to gel? You have to admit, there was a lot of tinkering throughout the year, especially when Pace and Omiyale disappointed early on. However, did they not look better at the end of the year? I believe that Martz has even said that given the right coaching (Tice) that the line has a lot of potential...as is. Or something of that nature. I wouldn't say I don't care who is put in the line. But what do the Bears have in those other players? Or are you suggesting you can find someone better in the 3rd? Or FA? Didn't they try that a few times last year?? And yes I believe, like you believe about the WR's, that the Bears should nurture/test/try (whatever you want to call it) what is there before going and redoing the whole group. You say you SAW these WR's perform pretty well and stepped up as hoped. I still say it was because of Cutler and not much else but, again you can't tell me that the unknowns of the other positions mentioned had much a chance to prove themselves. Especially on Offense (remember the TUrner factor). And on Defense I still stand by the original notion that those of the "2nd team" still managed to play pretty well at the end of the season. Those that do, do and those that don't...write about it.

OK. A good number here have gone back and forth on whether the Bears should entertain bringing in a veteran WR, like Boldin or Holt, with those opposed seemingly and in concert saying that the current staff (of WR's) is fine and not to mess with it. Further those in support of that "argument" state that bringing in a veteran player like the above mentioned would also hamper those currently on the staff from getting in the game and being noticed. One thing that a lot of folks agree with, for or against, is that Turner was unable to test the talent around him as he didn't have a creative bone in his body. So, now that Martz is in the fold and seeing another post say that they think he is the "total opposite" I pose this quandary. Using the same thought process why are so many thinking the Bears need more help in the OL, DL and FS positions? I, for one, think the current DL staff isn't all that bad especially when you consider the rotation idea that Lovie has been implementing as of late. Heck, you have two (last year) rookies that have yet to show their ability; Melton and Gilbert. A lot of people here further stated that they believed the team started to show marked improvement in the last two games, both on Offense and Defense. Particularly in the Minnesota game where it was virtually "2nd teamers" playing on the Defense. If that is the case why this sudden need for OL and FS? On FS. There are two relatively brand new players in Al Afalava (Oregon rookie in 09) and Craig Steltz (LSU rookie in 08) that actually showed some promise both early in the season and late in the season, mostly Steltz as Afalava was injured. Now if it is backup that you are concerned with, how will you go about finding that? More on that in a minute. On OL. I would be ok with the release of Pace. He is beyond his prime and didn't seem to improve at all as the season progressed. Williams was able to prove his worth and need to stay at the LT position. Kreutz, IMHO, still has a few good years left in him. He is a leader and still has the drive to play. Garza, most will agree, is still solid. Of the not-so-sures, Shaffer seemed to have something left and played admirably at the RT but more time will prove otherwise or not. Omiyale? Well, like Pace I wouldn't be so broken up if he were shown the door either. He couldn't do anything right. Which brings me to the unproven talent. Again, keep in mind the argument has been made about bringing in a veteran player and displacing the unknown talent. In that group (at OL) we have a veritable host of unknowns; Josh Beekman (Boston College rookie in 07) - who a lot of folks here and on other sites think could be the missing piece on the OL the Bears need, in place of Omiyale. Tyler Reed (Penn State rookie in 06) plays Guard. Anyone ever seen him play? James Marten (Boston College rookie in 07) plays Tackle, does he know Beekman? And lastly, Lance Louis (San Diego State rookie in 09) listed as both a Tackle and Guard so which is it? I know someone is going to tell me that most of these guys are on the Practice Roster but really how many more OLmen do the Bears need? If it's just one or two players that need replacing, on the starting line, why can't one of these four be the solution? So going back to the original question. Where is the solution to either of these positions? (Of those in the opinion that they need fixing). FA? Again, I would cite the counter argument made that bringing in another veteran could only delay or hamper some of the unproven youth already on the team. Is it in the draft? How much an impact do any of you believe can be found at 3rd round that could or should displace the current players at any of the positions mentioned above? Then there is the trade option. But that is a totally different topic of discussion altogether.

Not the only reasons. I believe there were players like T. Jones, Hester, Briggs, Mark Anderson and his breakout rookie year*, Bernard Berrian, Tank Johnson, Chris Harris (Tillman and Vasher and their respective Pro Bowl years). Some of these players were not "hand-me downs" but instead players that were drafted or traded for during Lovie's tenure. However again, all these players contributed in many ways more than just the two players you pointed out. You remember the promises that Lovie made when he was hired right? Beat Green Bay - check Win the Division - check Go to the Super Bowl - check And he is the third winning-est coach in Bears history after "Papa" Bear Halas and Ditka. Pretty good in my book. * - from Wikipedia