Mongo3451

Don't lose faith in the 30 that have not panned out yet. Half of those 30 are not to the 3rd year yet. That is usually the breakout point. Do you happen to have any stats on the 1st two rounds?

Put me in that category as well. I've gone as far to say to convert an angry athletic OG or DT, trim him down to 260 and just tell him to start running over people. I know the odds are not in favor of that being successfull. but, it's better than nothing. Agreed on the OL analogy as well. If a team gets off the bus running, the OL should be stocked with maulers and pile drivers. That identity imposes it's will on the opponent in the 4th quarter.

Not angry. I just find it necessary to step up, if I feel my words got twisted around. I was simply using them as an example of the only "top" players that fell that hard prior to the draft.(that's the only comparison I made) I honestly can't think of any others than those two. The connection to Smith is the elite talent and college production that made these people regarded as top pick talent. My point was that Smith has fallen from grace due to laziness and poor judgement. He has definately hurt himself, but in no way will drop out of the 1st round unless he really messes up. Thing is with Williams is that there were questions about his speed and work ethic way before the combine. Those are much bigger flags for skill position players than anywhere else. Again, he didn't drop that far anyway. Ha ha Lions.(as they were laughing about Benson) Sorry, just me being an a$$.

I am with you brother. I am not a Lovie fan. I used to be really high on Angelo, but I'm wearing down on him. What I don't understand is if the upper eschelon is sectrectly calling shots that handcuff Lovie and Jerry. We just have no way of knowing. I will always keep the faith though.

What is your point? I never said he was in Moss and Sapp league. Re-read the post. They were brought up as a point to HIGHLY regarded picks that fell hard due to, other than talent and skill issues. Again, read what I posted about Williams. Especially the fact that he did not fall far, so he is moot in the conversation. If you want to debate a point, please have one by bringing something more than estrogen laden pointless remarks.

I said this about Smith, "Smith at #18 is a no brainer and would actually be our best LT option." Put down the taroh cards when you read posts. Anyway, can you name other players that were rumored to one of the top picks in the draft that fell like Sapp and Moss? Another poster said it happens all the time and my memory doesn't serve me well on the issue. As far as Mike Williams is concerned; that's not how I recall him. I remember people talking about how slow he was and at 240 he possibly could be a TE. How far did he fall anyway? All the way to #8. Huge collapse from 3 or 4.

Disagree - You don't get to the NFL by having any sort lof osing mentality. The Bears want to win. It's in everyones best interest. It's does seem possible in light of the Cassell trade. Plus, it makes sense to the Cards to get any value when they can. They save 8 figures by trading him. And get to develop the talent they currently have. Agreed, whole heartedly. What one person finds annoying, another may see as an opportunity to communicate their thoughts and share fellowship with friends. Keep hope alive Stinger. This could happen for the reasons AZ54 stated. Heck, the Cards could have a guy in mind they really want our 2nd for and pull the trigger. Sometimes GM's just "gotta have em". I've seen wilder things happen.

The last 2 players I have seen fall this far from grace prior to the draft are Randy Moss and Warren Sapp. Both will be 1st ballot. Smith at #18 is a no brainer and would actually be our best LT option.

C'mon, you gotta find a little humor in it... I'll admit the baiting was a tad slanted, just in knowing I am a card carrying McCaskey basher. My statement almost read, "It's conclusive the McCaskey's are..." The 1st word that would have popped into everyone's head would have been "cheap". (whether anyone felt that way or not)

C'mon Wesson you are thinking like a football player! Seriously, I agree. You can't teach his size and athleticism. Does he have the natural instincts to make him a football player is the big question? That's all up to game tape now. Those scouts could have been spewing dis-information to start the sh!t storm, in hopes that he does fall. To the common fan like us, he has to be dismissed because we don't have the film on him and the ability to interview. To a GM, it's an indicator of his maturity and work ethic. Talent wins out though. It always does. If a GM thinks he's a gamer, he will be taken in the 1st round.

I get where you are going with this, as far as OL early, RB later.(agreed) But, challenge the argument that RB's have greater success past the 1st round than OT's. Like you, I'm not doing the homework.

My mindset was to sign a top FA tackle and draft one in the 1st round just so the competition scenario could play out. Once again, we have penciled in an unproven 1st rounder into a starting position. Who will we place at LT if Williams fails? It has also been my contention that you can draft a player to play LT and move him to RT or an OG position if they fail. Sometimes that's not do-able due to the players skillset, but usually the LT prospect has a superior skillset to the other 4 positions on the OL which makes the gamble pay off through better odds. Good points. Agreed 100%

Ha! I knew someone would fall for my little snare. All I said was "It's conclusive!" PT Barnum said, "There's a sucker born every minute."

It's conclusive! Thanks for the read Madlith.

Yes, OL is the safest bet for 1st round picks. I believe the stat is 68% become starters.

Not a stock analist by any means: but I can say I'd love to average 9% in the market. I do, however, think that NFL teams have a much easier time predicting future income than any corporation I can think of. The TV contracts make up such a huge portion of the pot that the smaller pieces don't sway the overall percentage as much as Auto, Retail and Pharma. It's like they have a crystal ball for the most part. I've been loving this conversation looking from the outside. Keep up the good debate!

I agree the D sould take most of the heat. I was actually impressed with the O the first half of the season. Then the wheels fell off. I think the combination of Orton's injury and opposing defenses figuring out that our OL the patchwork at best lead to teams gameplanning better against us. I actually have some hope for the O again this season. I just need to see an upgrade at OL and WR to gain real faith / hope that we won't regress. The D better step up, period. I'm still mad at that mess.

The topic is: "Should We Just Trade for Holt?" Anyway, he's not a Prima Donna. He will suit up for any team that he feels can win. If he goes to free agency, he will get to pick and choose, not if we trade for him.

I think both are out of the question. However, it was reported that Cutler's meeting with the new HC didn't go as well as planned.

I'm struggling with this one. I think he would have great value. But how would it affect the future, Williams in particular. How do you bring in Pace and not give him a chance to win the position of LT? My overall feeling is that we should strongly upgrade our OL weather it be from the draft or FA. My preference for now would be to sign Barnes and draft a day one stud OL.

I would much rather have Barnes than St.Clair. They both are marginal pass blockers, but Barnes is a beast to run behind. We would have to pay more for Barnes, but IMO that would still pay greater dividend. That would allow us to be more comfortable with grabbing more BPA in the draft.

Agreed. See below. I don't think that's the case at all. I believe that St Clair has one option right now. He was arguably the worst starting left tackle in the NFL last year. Who wants to pay him 15 mil to be a backup. That's honestly where he will end up for us. If he doesn't then our team is not making the progress it needs to make in order to make the OL a strength. Plus there are better / younger free agents out there. Option 3: Is the ultimatum JA gave someone a few years ago. "The offer has been laid on the table. It will not increase. The offer only goes down from here." I think that was Benson.

We don't run 5-7 step drops. We overwhelmingly use 3 step drops.

I generally agree with this philosophy and stand by it. IMO - this year is an abnormality. We have gaping holes at OT, WR and safety. Free agncy could have eliminated 2 out of 3 concerns without affecting our cap space much, especially with not needing to re-sign much of our own. IMO part II, is I honestly feel we were in the catbird seat, this off season, to seriously improve on our weaknesses without having to break the bank, even though that was possible. The core is established, the fire has been lit, but I'm afraid they feel that's enough. I just didn't see the talent.