nfoligno

drunk, the problem with the vote was it split up the 1 keeper votes with various stipulation. Once the question was simplified in discussion between 1 or 2 keepers, 1 keeper got 6 votes. Look, if the league wants 2 keepers, so be it. I have 3 or 4 players I like for keeper, but this was discussed and voted on already and 1 keeper was the end result.

I hesitate to say, as I don't want to sound like the judge and jury, but to me, we have already voted on 1 keeper, and are now voting on other aspects of the keeper rules. I understand the "just give me the rule" thought process, but please share your votes on the various issues listed. The biggest key issues (I think) are how we do the draft order and what an owner gives up if he keeps a player.

Agreed. Hey, I loved Jimmy Mac. No question at all about that. But just because I loved him doesn't mean he was a top 50 Bear. I love Mike Brown, but that doesn't mean I am going to lobby for him to be one of the best ever Bear players. The truth is, Jimmy was, as Pix said, a very average QB in terms of talent, but he did have the leadership and moxie, and that did go a long way. Mac will forever be enshrined in Bear's lore, but this is a very old franchise loaded with many, many great players. As fun as he was to watch, I simply do not feel he was great, and there are simply too many great players in our history to have one that is less on that list.

The year we won the SB, Jimmy Macs stats 2,400 yards, 15 TDs and 11 picks. That represented his career highest yardage and TD totals. Should also be pointed out he was a sub 60% completion percentage. His TD numbers as a Bear: 9, 12, 8, 155, 12, 6. His numbers didn't improve after Chicago either. Not only did he not throw a lot of scores, he also threw a lot of picks (in comparison to TDs). Hey, we all loved his moxie during that SB run, but the fact is, his numbers were VERY pedestrian. Orton had more yards, scores and a better completion %, and he was run out of town. Jim Miller had similar numbers the year he took us to the playoffs, and few would call Miller a good QB. Hell, most would question the use of the word average, much less top 50. Not only that, but he was always injured. Due to injuries, Mac missed 50 games in his 7 seasons as a Bear, never starting more than 13, and only twice in his 7 seasons, playing 10 games or more. Mac led a team filled with damn good player, and he deserves credit for leading the team to the SB, but sorry, he was far from a great player.

Got it, thanks. As I said, tad before my time. Pix, it must have been great watching him live

If we are basing this on individual talent or stats, McM doesn't belong in the top 50. I think McM often gets thrown in there because he was a very charasmatic QB for our SB champtionship team. But damn. When you go back and look at his stats, they make Kyle Orton look all-pro.

I am not saying anything about Pyle, but there is no question in my mind Kreutz should be in there. Fans are hard on him today as he is at the end of his career, but he was a perrenial pro bowl player, and for some time considered the top (or one of the top 3) centers in the game. Again, not saying Pyle shouldn't be in there, nor am I saying anything as to where Pyle would be ranked compared to Kreutz (I don't know enough about Pyle). I am simply saying I think it legit Kreutz is on the list.

Did they only include players, or did they include coaches/personnel/etc.? I only recall players. Way before my time, but as crucial as Halas was to the organization (and sport in general) if the ranking is based solely on the individual as a player, should he be ranked higher? While I know much of Halas in terms of what he did to create the league, owner/coach for the team etc., I really don't know that much about him as a player.

Alaskan, Were you in the league last year?

To be honest, there are a lot I disagree with in terms of how the players were ranked, like Red Grange listed at #40. I loved the punky QB, but honestly, above Grange?

Deleted. Missed Singletary the first time through, but he is there at #11.

50 Greatest Bears http://www.suntimes.com/sports/football/be...50.photogallery

The poll was the start of the thread, but I believe we went away from the poll itself pretty quickly as several options all had one keeper, but with different rules for each, which I pointed out. You have a number of people voting for one keeper, but with different rules, and the end result had the 2 keeper rule having a majority because of the split one keeper vote. Later in the discussion, we simplified it and voted based solely on one or two keepers. Toward the end of the thread, you posted, 2 keepers flea, pix, bowlingtwig (3) 1 keeper nfo, papabear,drunkbomber, nopper, stinger (5) 2 votes togo. What happens if it's a tie?? After that, Bradjock voted for one keeper, and then you posted, well that makes 6 for 1 keeper, so majority rules & it's 1 keeper Now we can vote on what way the keeper works loose the pick where you draft them or 1 pick up & if we are stopping keepers in the 1st?

Mad. If you are in, and paying money to be in, I see no reason to delegate your vote. These votes are for the future, which you will be part of, and not the past. So if I read your votes... - You vote to lose the round prior to the original drafted round. - You vote to keep a player for one year, not counting original drafted year. - You vote to base draft order on prior years standings. - You vote 60/30/10 split for payouts. - You vote to add in a payout for one week high score winner, with payout set at entry fee. Am I correct in your votes?

LOL regarding Garza. It is truly a sad testiment that Garza has been one of our best OL in recent years. I go back and forth on our OL. Part of me looks at it, and with some position changes and solid OL coach, I get a bit of hope that our OL will be better this year. Then part of me listens to the camp reports, and starts to worry. I know defenses usually are further along when camp starts in the first place, and our situation is exteme in that much of our D is filled with veterans and they are coming back to the same scheme used for years. On offense however, it couldn't have changed in the offseason more than it has with even the terminology used being different. The OL will have between 2 and 4 players starting at positions which they did not start at last year. Williams is still developing. If Beekman doesn't start at LG, we will have another green player at that position. If Garza loses his job, the same. And whoever starts at RT will be different from last year. IMHO, more than any other position on the team, the OL needs time to develop chemistry, and that is even greater when you factor in a lot of youth. Now add in the fact that Tice is bring in a new blocking system, drastically different from what we have been doing, and I am starting to wonder how long before our OL settles. Last year our OL went through numerous changes, but nothing like this season, and it took better than half the year for them to settle in. The OL actually finished the year on a fairly strong note, but that is the point. We have changed up far more than last year. I am starting to wonder if this OL won't really settle in until the later part of the year, which will be too late.

Drunk, I began a new thread titled FF Keeper league, and listed the issues I think we need voted on. I went back and found the old thread when we discussed and voted on some issues, and linked that thread to the new thread. It looks like we actually voted on ONE keeper, not two. From what I could tell, one keeper had 6 votes and thus won. Anyway, as I said, I listed the issues I believe still need to be resolved. Is there anyway that thread can be tagged or whatever it is that is done to put it at the top. This thread has so much discussion I fear any votes could be lost.

I saw a bunch of two TE sets when I was there. Turner often lined Olsen up as a WR so it'd make sense that Martz would do the same. There's no way Olsen can overtake Manu or Clark in the blocking department so why try? I've always thought that we'd utilize Olsen as a hybrid WR, much the same way Antonio Gates is used. I agree, I just didn't think Martz (based on his previous comments) felt this way. One thing I love is talk of how we have been sending Olsen downfield. That is what we drafted him to do, but Turner liked him in shorter range, which was just a waste. Agreed (Wildcat). I always thought this looked clumsy or forced. This works with teams that use it consistently. For teams that use it as a gimmick, it typically blows up in their face. Also, you block very different for the wildcat, and I think our OL has enough on their plate. Especially now with the RBs we have, and players like Hester, Manu and some others, I see the reason why we may like it. At the same time, I don't think we have the OL to do this and with our offense struggling to learn a new/complicated scheme, I think they have enough work to do without complicating it more or taking time away from learning the actual offense, rather than the gimmicks.

I have no issue with this, but it is interesting as it would seem to fly in the face of what Martz previously said. Martz essentially said if a TE can't block, he would play a WR, implying that as good as a TE may be, he isn't as good as a WR. I do agree with you though that it may be different if we start out in a 2 TE formation, forcing the D to use an extra S or LB, and then to split out Olsen creating a mismatch, rather than simply lining him up as a 3rd WR when the D can play nickel.

Okay, there has been a lot of talk about how we will setup our league this year with regard to various things. I thought we could start a new/clean thread, and try to get some votes in. I did a bit searching, and found the old thread which had a lot of talking, and even some voting, and I think many of us forgot much of it. Take a scroll down memory lane for some fun, http://www.talkbears.com/forums/index.php?...art=#entry75522 The one thing it appears we voted on and settled was the number of keepers, and ONE was the winner with 6 votes. Damn. I really began to like the idea of two keepers for selfish reasons, but I stand by my vote as the draft is my favorite part of FF, and keeping too many simply dilutes the draft too much. So, unless someone demands a new vote, and based on the last vote, we keep one player. After this, there was a lot of talk, but no formal vote, thus I think we really need to get this established as soon as possible. I'll list the issues. Please provide your vote. If you feel there are other issues, obviously share them. I am not saying this is the end all list, but simply think we need to start get some resolution. One. What does an owner give up for his keeper. From reading through the comments, I think the majority opinion seemed to be giving up a round higher than when drafted. Drunk, Bowling, Papa and myself I am pretty sure voted that way. But there was never an official vote, and thus I think we need to get one on record. To try and keep it simple, I think the two most common choices were one round higher or the round taken. Two. If you lose the same round as your keeper was drafted, are 1st rounder allowed? I believe if we give up a round earlier, by rule, 1st rounders are out, but if we vote to lose the same round as drafted, that would leave open the option of keeper 1st round players. I am very much against this, but again, while I think opinions were provided, no vote was made. This vote is moot if the prior vote is for round earlier than drafted. Three. How long do we keep our keepers? I think the general opinion was for either one or two years, but no more. Unless someone has a problem with this, I say we keep the vote to one or two years (this does not count the original year). I vote one year. Four. Draft Order. This appeared to be a topic of discussion last year, but was never resolved. I think I noted three different options. (a) Draft order is based on previous year standings, with worst drafting first, etc. ( Draft order is simply a reverse of the previous year. Whoever drafted last last year drafts first this year. © Simply do a random order as was done last year. For the record, I vote for the random draft order. I just don't understand the reason for giving a reward for teams that finished low, or punishing teams who did well. This is not the NFL where the league trys to help bad teams by adding talent to their teams. We start with new teams each year, thus the rationale is out the window. Further, I don't want to give anyone any reason to tank near the end of the year when they are out of it in order to secure a top pick the following year. Five. Payout. I think I remember seeing 60/30/10, but as I was not in the money, I just don't really recall. Six. Additional money contest. Just something we always had in my other league that I always liked. An additional payout (usually about equal to the entry fee or a tad above) for the team with the one week highest score. One of the things I like about this is it tends to keep teams in it at the end. You may be in last place, but one good week and you could win your money back. Does that cover it? Probably not, but those are the issues I can think of off the top of my head. Please vote on the above, and add any further issues you may have.

No please. Take a nap for the next month or so. Take a vacation. Go see the world Seriously, good draft.

First, thanks for the report. Really great to read fans perspectives. 4.Greg Olsen worked out with the WRs when the offense was working on running drills 7 on 7 while Clark, Davis and Angulo worked in the running drll. While it is good to hear was may be maximizing Olsen's receiving ability, I do have to ask, how is he going to improve his blocking, which is a must for Martz, if he isn't working on it in camp. Yes, I am sure he is working on it, but if he is working on receiving while the other TEs are working on blocking, is Olsen's really getting the practice reps needed? 5 The running plays all looked to be between the tackles and Kahlil Bell looked the best of thr RBs to me. I don't know if this is simply due to being early in camp, but I have to believe this will change. I read that Wolfe has mostly been running inside, which is really a disappointment as so many expected Martz to better utilize Wolfe. I am sure things will open up, but you have to wonder if Wolfe isn't going to have a lot of ground to make up if Bell and the rest are getting favorite early impressions based on their ability to run inside. 6. Jay Cutler was throwing high on most of his short throws but looked good on his deep passes. Caleb Hanie was okay making some perfect throws and then some that were a little off target. La Fevour looked like a rookie with his timing but had much more zip on the ball than Teel who IMO is just a TC arm and not a veteran backup. The key I am curious about here is, does it seem Cutler is throwing to a space which the WR runs into, or is Cutler throwing directly to the receiver. That is the key for this offense, and the aspect of Cutler/WRs I am most concerned with. 7. The Bear's Wildcat formation featured Devin Hester at QB and Cutler at a WR spot. Personally, I would just as soon dump the wildcat. While it may have potential, I think a typical Martz offense has enough rinkles to not need such a play. The playbook is confusing enough, with enough for the offense to learn, w/o spending much time (or any at all) working on something like the Wildcat. 8. The formation I saw the most from the offense was 3 WRs 1TE and 1 RB. And who were the players most often lining up in this formation? I am sure the receivers are really rotating, but curious especially about the TE. We paid Manu a lot to be a minor piece, and yet Olsen has so much talent. I just really have no clue how we are going to use all our TEs. 9. Even though I mentioned earlier that Cutler was throwing high on some of his throws, the only reason I can say that is because of the way that all the WRs jumped up to make catches on his throws. The veterans all looked good to me including Rashied Davis and rookies Robinson and Matthews struggled. Just curious, but do you think it was necessary to leap to make the grap. So often I have seen WRs make relatively easy catches look complicated. I think Moose was always leaping to make a catch, which he would then haul in (or drop) chest high. Again, good stuff. Thanks for giving us the report.

One thing to understand, I don't not blame anyone who questions this staff, with regard to Afalava or whatever else. This staff has done little to earn blind faith/trust and in fact has done plenty to kill such trust. But when I look at the situation, I simply feel there are differences here than with other times. On the surface, its yet another time our staff has screwed with the development of a young DB. When I look a bit deeper though, I see differenced. Regarding hearing what the Bears want us to hear, that is only partially true. If you read something on the Bears website, then you are likely reading Bear's PR. If you read something specifically from our staff, then you may well be hearing a PR angle of the issue at hand. But camp is open, with media and fans attending. If a reporter, not on the bears payroll, talks about a player looking good in camp practices, that might be more believable. If several reports (attending camp) from different papers or media outlets have similar stories, then I think it becomes pretty believable. For example, I have read numerous reporters talking about how Omiyale is struggling, both in protection and avoiding penalties. I think this is pretty believable as there is no reason for several reporters with various bosses to lie. Similar, I have read from several media sources (attending camp) that Steltz is looking good. Thus why would I not believe it?

Honestly, I think a book could be written based on how this team has handled the safety position over the last 5-8 years. Angelo continually used later round picks to draft safeties who, by all reports, fit the in-the-box style. We then try each of these players at FS, and they fail. We continually move them back and forth between safety positions, never allowing them to develop, and IMHO, killing their confidence. Honestly, I could go on and on about how we have handled this unit, and have in the past, but what's the point. At the same time, I simply can not disagree with the Afalava demotion. While he earned the job in camp last year, how much was due to his playing that good as opposed to the rest looking that bad? He started okay, but then really regressed. Meanwhile, Steltz gets a couple starts late and looks good. Then we have our offseason in which we draft Wright and trade for Harris. Also, Steltz follows up his strong finish with a very strong string of OTAs, and from what I have read, has continued that into camp. Honestly, for all the talk about Afalava, has anyone really heard about him looking great in OTA or camp? With the injuries hitting our safeties, everyone is getting plenty of PT. Harris has missed most of camp, and Wright even went down with injury. I have read good things about Wright (prior to injury) and a lot of good about Steltz, but I have yet to read about Afalava looking good. Hey, I hate how we have handled the safety unit over the years but I don't want to assume everything is equal or the same. While the path of Afalava may be similar to that of other young safeties, I simply see justification for the move this time.

Who the hell is Devildogs? Damn. I was just looking over the rosters for potential keepers, and this team really stuck out. Ray Rice proved to be a stud last year. 1,300+ rushing. 78-700 receiving and 8 scores. Baltimore upgraded their OL and added Boldin, which should take some heat out of the box. Rice would likely not only be a 1st round pick, but a high 1st round pick. All Devil will have to give up for him is a 7! With his pick in the 2nd to last round, he took this QB by the name of Brett Favre. Sure, he "could" retire, but who believes that. All Favre did last year was throw for 4,200 yards and 33 TDs. And he can keep this player for an 18th round pick! Other standout potential keepers... Bluecollar - Crabtree and Shonne Greene will cost a 13/14. Nopper - Vernon Davis will cost a 16. Papabear - Steve Smith (NYG) will cost a 9. Crusher - Benson for a 10. Branch - Ricky Williams for a 10. But the best value I have seen thus far....drum roll please.... Cali Bears can keep Brandon Jacobs for only a 1st round pick (as he was taken in the 2nd last year)

One report I read, which is very believable IMHO, is that Favre did send out the text, and did so for a pair of reasons. One, reports were he was getting pressure to get to camp by a certain point, and this may have been Favre's way of saying, "I'll be there when I choose, and you will like it." Two, he wanted more money. Looks like the bogus texts worked as the team reportedly is offering something like $20m for one season now for him to return, and I doubt he will be forced to join the team any sooner than he wants. Also, Minny upping their offer to Favre tells me the texts were in fact sent. Why would Minny raise their offer to Favre if nothing had changed.