jason

I experience no slow downs on the site.

You continue to paint with a biased brush. I've admitted to numerous Martz mistakes; your memory just isn't that good. But at the same time I'm open-minded enough to admit that a great majority of Martz issues would have been solved if the front office had actually paid attention to getting Martz the tools required to run a professional offense. The QB was a great step in that direction, but the collection of bad-to-average at OL and WR made his job a virtual impossibility.

C'MON! Virtually nobody hit on Urlacher! He was a Safety that got turned into a MLB. I guarantee that wasn't mentioned on most Bears boards at the time.

A dumbass, indeed, but I hope the Bears pick him in the 7th. A talent considerd 2-4 grabbed in the 7th is a steal.

So he's stupid, and uses MJ...how is that different than many other players in the league? This just in, there are guys in the league who get single digits on the Wonderlic - a test so simple the average high school freshman would ace. Hell, Dexter Manley was illiterate! Also, I'm sure there are tons of guys in the NFL who use marijuana.

Likewise. It's all in good spirits. When people vehemently disagree, it's difficult to change the other's opinion.

Good Lord...I wish that too. There would have been hits and misses (saddens me to think we wouldn't have had Urlacher), but I have no doubt in my mind we'd have been better than we have been over the last 5 - 10 years. We may not have had some of the better defensive picks that have come from later rounds, but we would have been much more solid offensively, would have had a much more steady/solid OL, would have been more dynamic on offense with plenty of pass-catching options, and azbearsfan, Martz would have been a success in Chicago as a result (he failed primarily because the OL was shit his entire time here; it's not up for debate - all other problems fixed with a stronger OL). 1st Round quick hitters: -I loved Moss -I hated Enis -I loved Mike Williams -I hated the Benson pick

I've conceded the math of attitude+skills But this all started, and is in this thread about Chilo Rachal, because the logic of "if he sucks, just cut him, no harm no foul" was used. I still contend the same logic applies to TO. Further, this thread continued on because you've claimed his talents have eroded drastically. And I've yet to see someone concede the idea that no matter how much his talents have eroded, just on the minimal tape we have, he's better than most #3 WRs in the NFL. Just start there. Is that not a simple and logical statement? As for the gem comment, this is more about WR than anything. All people have talked about for years is WR this and WR that. And for several years both TO and Moss have been available. And each year this topic arises on Bears' message boards only to be shouted down from the rafters because of the duo's admitted attitude problems. To me that is seeing a problem, complaining about the problem, and refusing to address the problem because you don't have the perfect solution. Sometimes you have to apply duct tape. That's all I'm saying, and all I have said. With his lessened talent, and nearly zero interest from the NFL, I have to think he knows this would be his last chance. And given his stats two years ago, I find it hard to believe he couldn't help this team more than Max Komar, Dane Sanzenbacher, and Devin Thomas. He starts shit? Cut him. He isn't as good as thought? Cut him. Easy.

I dislike waiting until the third to get OL help since I obviously think it's still the #1 need, but starting the draft with Brockers and Perry would be unreal. If the addition of those two didn't turn the Bears front-four into the NY Giants 2.0, where a QB isn't safe on any down, then I don't know what would. Also, I'd rather seea CB in the 5th instead of another DT. Overall, however, this would have to be considered a good draft for the Bears.

Continuing with Lucky's recent research, the folks at ESPN (more specifically Grantland) have produced some interesting stats as they relate to the draft. http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/785360...-truly-valuable It's not all that surprising in some regards, but it does back up the concept that some positions are safer to draft in the first two rounds, and some have higher bust rates. TE is the safest in the first two rounds, and OL is the second safest. Similarly, no position other than QB drops off in production like OL does after the first two rounds. There are always reasons to debate data like this - we've probable covered them all - this is still the most extensive analysis of the type that I've seen.

Good catch! If Adams is there for the Bears in the second and they don't select him, I'll be livid. That's a huge drop for a guy many thought wouldn't be there for the Bears in the first.

Another nightmare: With the 79th pick in the NFL draft, the Bears select John Doe, DB, out of West County Texas Tech University at Austin. I'd rather Emery took players almost exclusively out of a few major conferences than try to double-down like JA was fond of doing.

I have no clue what you're talking about in the beginning of your post. As for the bolded, the best I can say is, I graded what video there was available. Anyone who objectively looks at it would probably come to the same results I did. The three valid reasons not to pick up TO: 1) lemon's point - Tired of the Bears picking up aging vets hoping to get their last few years of productivity 2) He's a bad apple, and his antics outweigh his value since a comparably skilled player could be had with much less grief 3) One views his talents and skills as being so greatly diminished that he isn't value added The first two are legit, but his most recent NFL statistics and his domination of the NFL's minor leagues say that #3 is not legit. I'm not all that excited about him, but playing devil's advocate on this issue is worthwhile because everyone who cries about the lack of a WR has been dismissing TO and Moss for years and years. And here they were, yet again available, and yet again they're being dismissed. It's as if people want to complain but don't want to actually look for difficult solutions. The perfect answer is not always available. Pointing to #1 and #2 above is not complaining. Pointing to #3 doesn't appear to be valid. I guess complaining is just easier. What's so hard about dividing the issue? Does he, or does he not, have the physical skills to still play in the NFL? The answer is yes. Does his physical ability outweigh his baggage? Apparently not.

I could be mistaken, but didn't he already improve upon his comine time and run a 4.8?

Some hate him, some love him, I think he could be a late round steal. ESPN has a new article on him that might change minds.

TO's career stats, and stats from 2010 before the injury, provide enough source of balance. Besides that, I have looked at all the film available of TO's time in Arena. Breakdown this highlight reel for instance... Touchdown #1 - Does not look explosive, but still fast. Drives into his defender until the DB breaks down. Subtle nudge and hard in-cut. Great route, found an open spot in a tight zone. Touchdown #2 - Again, not explosive off the LOS but fast. Gives an ineffective juke on a stop-and-go. Nonetheless he swim moves and muscles through the defender - this could be illegal contact in the NFL - resulting in an easy throw for the QB. Touchdown #3 - Explosive off the LOS, beats the press with his initial move, creates separation for the easiest of three TDs. I know you'll say, "But he's playing against scrubs," but keep in mind you're also the one who asked for arena league tape breakdown. You honestly think I wouldn't have looked at it since I am virtually the only person who thinks he'd be a good addition? Just from the limited film it appears he still understands how to use his speed, size, strength, and knowledge to get open pretty easily. It comes as no surprise that he's basically leading the league in every receiving category per game. How's that for a leg to stand on? IFL:NFL::AAA:MLB. If a future HoFer gets sent to the "minor leagues" and dominates the "minor leagues," then it makes sense that he's ready to move back up to the pros. He may not be an all-star any more, but he's still NFL-worthy over many others.

Agreed. My sentiments almost exactly.

Amen on Penn State, unless it's a LB. They make good LBs. What's up with LSU?

I thought so too. This tells me he thinks the OTs who would slot at 19 are really OG projects. That tells me almost certainly that the Bears are going DL in the first round.

Never. I understand if people don't like the guy, but it's downright ignorant to pretend that he's not better than many other WRs in the NFL. And if you honestly think he's a worse WR right now than Hester, then I think we've found the source of disagreement. I believe even at 50% he's better than Hester. He has better routes, hands, shielding of the defender, knowledge of how to get open, etc. He knows the WR craft. I know the Bears will never get him, but it's amazing to me that someone who dominated as recently as he has is suddenly considered worse than guys like Sanzenbacher, a guy who had nearly no business seeing the field this year. That's just ridiculous. There is a Sanzenbacher on every team, and TO is better. But TO and his attitude may not be worth it, which I understand.

The bolded part is the important part. They don't want him because bridges are burned and his antics are not worth the risk. But it's not exclusively based on talent. And I wouldn't sell yourself short. The guys running teams and making these selections aren't geniuses; they just have a bunch of people working for them who have time to put in all sorts of analysis. And even at that they are batting at less than .500.

You have to read the entire post. You obviously aren't doing so. What I'm saying is, antics aside, character aside, he still has the abilities to be in the NFL. He's still better than many other WRs currently occupying roster spots. What is so difficult to comprehend about that simple truth? And it is truth. He's better than many who have contracts. Different issue: Is his diminished talent AND his attitude worth a chance required by some NFL team? They apparently feel it is not. I can live with that. I'd prefer he was given a shot since I think he can help the Bears, but it's an understandable stance. But simply saying he's washed up and not better than many other WRs in the NFL is such a bogus statement that it has to be addressed. Even if he's at 75% of his former self, he's still better than many others in the NFL. Especially just about every other team's #3.

I like the multiple angles this thread has taken already. We will know after this draft if Emery is a guy who brings in people to evaluate or brings in people to blow smoke.

It's not dumb. There are only a handful of teams that even make a comparison worthwhile. The Giants, Colts, Packers, and Saints are the only teams I can think of that have a #3 who could even compare with TO. Also, he's not my top FA choice, I just think it's stupid to ignore a guy who could help the team at a position of need. He's better than every WR currently on the roster other than Marshall. And make no mistake, he could help the team. Comparing him to Harrison is apples and oranges because they are two different types of WRs, Harrison has nowhere near the physique of TO, and just two years ago (when TO was in the league), he was still tearing opposing DBs new assholes on a regular basis. Less than a full season and he had nearly 1000 yards and 10 TDs. He plays a full season and those numbers are easily attained. He's not going to be the #1 any more, but to totally disregard him is stupid of the Bears in my opinion. If the Bears had a stable of WRs like the teams mentioned above, then of course I agree with you. Why waste the time? But the simple fact remains, the Bears don't have those WRs. We'll probably never know because TO won't make it back into the NFL, but you can't honestly believe he's not better than a very large number of WRs who are currently occupying roster spots. That's just an ignorant thought. Of course he's better than at the very least most #3 WRs in the NFL, and probably more than that. It's ridiculous to argue otherwise. It's because of this that I honestly think it's a case of being black-balled (justified or not I won't argue). GMs would much rather see a #3 guy who won't cause problems than take a chance with TO. I can't argue the cancer angle; I've never disagreed with it. If that's the major sore spot, then I get it. But to act like this guy is washed up because of his age is just crazy talk for a guy who has kept himself in unbelievable condition over the course of his career. His body, while chronologically mid-30s, is probably a lot closer to mid-20s healthwise. The dude came back from a catastrophic injury in record time to perform in a Super Bowl and has gone through all sorts of craziness, receiving the most complex and advanced treatment in the world to recover from injuries. Again, look at what he did in 2010. Top 20 in nearly every category: yards, TDs, longest reception, receptions per game, yards per game. Anyone who doesn't think he'd help the Bears on the field must not want any WRs in the draft, because it's an opinion that says, "hey, the WRs are good to go!" If a person's primary issue is TO's locker room antics, then I get it. I just think the gamble is worth it for what he could potentially provide between the stripes.

HA! Of course, but I feel the problem has been OL for quite some time. Even a guy like Henry Burris, well, maybe not Henry Burris, but a guy who is considered subpar can come in and manage a game very well if given the time to feel comfortable and confident. Just look at what a solid OL did for Rex. It made him so comfortable and confident that he thought he could make every single throw, coverage be damned. In all seriousness, talent at QB is obviously necessary...but the primary problem for 5 or 6 years has always been OL. And it's exactly why the Bears' offense has sucked over that same stretch of times. There are contributing factors, but that's the major symptom to the disease.