AZ54 Posted May 11, 2015 Report Share Posted May 11, 2015 From Jason's post I can't convince you. I'm telling you it's almost imperceptible. And it's funny because I had an Arena game recently where the visiting coach complained about the PSI level of the balls. He thought they were over-inflated. I told him I'd look into it while thinking of rolling my eyes. Guess what? The balls almost all fell within the appropriate range, some a tiny bit more, some a tiny bit less. If I had juggled them and then tossed one back, you couldn't have told the difference. That room full of officials with roughly 50 years experience combined couldn't tell, and multiple are in major college BCS officiating. This is a perfect example of why I am saying this really isnt a big deal. It is a big deal IF Tom Brady made them do it, i get that. Just because Jason can't tell the difference between an under-inflated and properly inflated football doesn't mean others can't. Back when I played basketball every day it was easy to know if a ball was slightly under-inflated a couple psi. You can do that just by squeezing it. Whether an official notices or not isn't at issue because you know how much pressure a football has when you squeeze it to throw a pass. Most officials only hold a football hard enough to place it on the ground or toss it a little ways. Big difference in how much pressure you hold the ball with versus the grip used to throw a 15 yard out pattern. Fact is an NFL linebacker knew the football was under-inflated when he started this entire investigation. We've seen quarterback after quarterback come forward and state they always made sure the game balls met their specs before the game started. Why are so many of them so picky on air pressure and feel of the ball? Kickers are too and some used to microwave footballs before the game. The NFL took that advantage away from them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chitownhustla Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 Just because Jason can't tell the difference between an under-inflated and properly inflated football doesn't mean others can't. Back when I played basketball every day it was easy to know if a ball was slightly under-inflated a couple psi. You can do that just by squeezing it. Whether an official notices or not isn't at issue because you know how much pressure a football has when you squeeze it to throw a pass. Most officials only hold a football hard enough to place it on the ground or toss it a little ways. Big difference in how much pressure you hold the ball with versus the grip used to throw a 15 yard out pattern. Fact is an NFL linebacker knew the football was under-inflated when he started this entire investigation. We've seen quarterback after quarterback come forward and state they always made sure the game balls met their specs before the game started. Why are so many of them so picky on air pressure and feel of the ball? Kickers are too and some used to microwave footballs before the game. The NFL took that advantage away from them. Joe Theisman's view on it http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2015...fc-championship Eli Manning's view on it http://national.suntimes.com/nfl/7/72/1100...lated-footballs Interesting they both have different views, Jim says he couldn't tell a difference and Eli said he could tell a difference but Eli wouldn't say there was an advantage just a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chitownhustla Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 MTV inflated two balls =1 at 12.5psi and 1 at 10.5 psi. A difference of 2 PSI. From the Wells report the average of all the balls deflated was 11.10, leaving a difference of 1.4 psi. Watch the video to see for your self. http://www.mtv.com/news/2059188/deflate-ga...ball-challenge/ Using a bigger difference of inflation (.60 more) than the average deflated ball used by the Pats MTV reported more people could not tell the difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 I think you can continue to bring up examples of people who think the inflation level does or does not make a difference. The thing is, it matters not. It is a perceived advantage and was against the rules. Had Brady fessed up, he'd have been hit with a $25K fine. All the penalties are due to not supporting the investigation and lying about involvement in it. Again, not under a court of US or international law, under rules of a private business. Everything else is pretty much moot. Just like many say the inflation of the ball didn't make a difference, these penalties on the Pats and Brady won't make much difference either. They will continue to be one of the best teams out there despite losing a pick and having a QB out for a couple games not getting beat up for 4 games... Joe Theisman's view on it http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2015...fc-championship Eli Manning's view on it http://national.suntimes.com/nfl/7/72/1100...lated-footballs Interesting they both have different views, Jim says he couldn't tell a difference and Eli said he could tell a difference but Eli wouldn't say there was an advantage just a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chitownhustla Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 I think you can continue to bring up examples of people who think the inflation level does or does not make a difference. The thing is, it matters not. It is a perceived advantage and was against the rules. Had Brady fessed up, he'd have been hit with a $25K fine. All the penalties are due to not supporting the investigation and lying about involvement in it. Again, not under a court of US or international law, under rules of a private business. Everything else is pretty much moot. Just like many say the inflation of the ball didn't make a difference, these penalties on the Pats and Brady won't make much difference either. They will continue to be one of the best teams out there despite losing a pick and having a QB out for a couple games not getting beat up for 4 games... You are right, the punishment is about Lying and breaking a rule. I posted this pointing out that the actual rule broken is not that big of deal at the same time I am not saying breaking the rule is not a big deal. Deflating a ball = no big deal Breaking a rule = big deal Lying about it= big deal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixote Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 A writer on NFL.com is speculating that it is quite possible that their backup QB will excel because of the great structure and coaching of the Pats and that as a result they will likely be able to recoup the loss of the 2016 1st round pick by trading the backup QB after the season is over for a 1st rounder. I know it does not have anything to do with this debate but I would not be at all surprised if this becomes reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chitownhustla Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 A writer on NFL.com is speculating that it is quite possible that their backup QB will excel because of the great structure and coaching of the Pats and that as a result they will likely be able to recoup the loss of the 2016 1st round pick by trading the backup QB after the season is over for a 1st rounder. I know it does not have anything to do with this debate but I would not be at all surprised if this becomes reality. Matt Cassell exceled while Brady was hurt. I just hope they don't find Brady's replacement for when he retires. Im tired of seeing the Pats always so damn good. I can see it now, another Packer type of situation. Farve retires and the Rodgers era begins!!! Meanwhile the Bears still don't have the QB we need! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 Agreed Pix. I just mentioned earlier that I thought the results of the penalties will probably have about as much effect of the supposed soft balls... Negligible. A writer on NFL.com is speculating that it is quite possible that their backup QB will excel because of the great structure and coaching of the Pats and that as a result they will likely be able to recoup the loss of the 2016 1st round pick by trading the backup QB after the season is over for a 1st rounder. I know it does not have anything to do with this debate but I would not be at all surprised if this becomes reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted May 13, 2015 Report Share Posted May 13, 2015 Just because Jason can't tell the difference between an under-inflated and properly inflated football doesn't mean others can't. Back when I played basketball every day it was easy to know if a ball was slightly under-inflated a couple psi. You can do that just by squeezing it. Whether an official notices or not isn't at issue because you know how much pressure a football has when you squeeze it to throw a pass. Most officials only hold a football hard enough to place it on the ground or toss it a little ways. Big difference in how much pressure you hold the ball with versus the grip used to throw a 15 yard out pattern. Fact is an NFL linebacker knew the football was under-inflated when he started this entire investigation. We've seen quarterback after quarterback come forward and state they always made sure the game balls met their specs before the game started. Why are so many of them so picky on air pressure and feel of the ball? Kickers are too and some used to microwave footballs before the game. The NFL took that advantage away from them. Basketballs are waaaaay different, specifically because they bounce. And it wasn't just me, it was a group of guys ranging from the SEC to DII, four of five who played NCAA football. The MTV video speaks VOLUMES. They took out more and people could barely notice. With less, it's virtually imperceptible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted May 13, 2015 Report Share Posted May 13, 2015 MTV inflated two balls =1 at 12.5psi and 1 at 10.5 psi. A difference of 2 PSI. From the Wells report the average of all the balls deflated was 11.10, leaving a difference of 1.4 psi. Watch the video to see for your self. http://www.mtv.com/news/2059188/deflate-ga...ball-challenge/ Using a bigger difference of inflation (.60 more) than the average deflated ball used by the Pats MTV reported more people could not tell the difference. Great post. Was it cheating? Sure, if Brady actually knew. Did it provide an advantage? No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrackerDog Posted May 13, 2015 Report Share Posted May 13, 2015 Did it provide an advantage? No. Does that matter? No. Paying someone else to manipulate the tools of the game is clearly a violation of the integrity clause. And in the estimation of the Commish, that's enough to levy the fines he hit them with. All of the side arguments about whether it would've changed the results of the game are straw men. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mongo3451 Posted May 13, 2015 Report Share Posted May 13, 2015 Did it provide an advantage? No. Anyone who thinks it didn't provide an advantage is absolutely full of shit. If not, why risk it. Psychological advantage at a minimum can not be denied. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted May 14, 2015 Report Share Posted May 14, 2015 Anyone who thinks it didn't provide an advantage is absolutely full of shit. If not, why risk it. Psychological advantage at a minimum can not be denied. Psychological? Really? Getting some tail in the morning could provide psychological advantage. A mentor, positive mental imagery, lucky rabbit's foot...all essentially psychological advantage. Why risk it? Beats me, because the ball is the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mongo3451 Posted May 14, 2015 Report Share Posted May 14, 2015 Psychological? Really? Getting some tail in the morning could provide psychological advantage. A mentor, positive mental imagery, lucky rabbit's foot...all essentially psychological advantage. Why risk it? Beats me, because the ball is the same. You are way too smart to continue this hard headed argument. I can tell from experience the balls absolutely feel different. NFL people know it, Tom Brady obviously prefers it. Please just stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'TD' Posted May 14, 2015 Report Share Posted May 14, 2015 You are way too smart to continue this hard headed argument. I can tell from experience the balls absolutely feel different. NFL people know it, Tom Brady obviously prefers it. Please just stop. Agreed, why go to extremes of deflating the balls after they have been checked if you don't think it's an advantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted May 14, 2015 Report Share Posted May 14, 2015 You are way too smart to continue this hard headed argument. I can tell from experience the balls absolutely feel different. NFL people know it, Tom Brady obviously prefers it. Please just stop. But the thing is, I have felt thousands of footballs. I know. It is difficult to believe anyone not involved on a regular basis with footballs TODAY really knows. What you probably remember from HS is not the same. I know it doesn't feel different when its close to the range. Drastically under? Sure. And that is where the HS balls and their "kicking ball" BS comes into play. But when it is close nobody can tell. It is guess work at best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted May 14, 2015 Report Share Posted May 14, 2015 Agreed, why go to extremes of deflating the balls after they have been checked if you don't think it's an advantage. The why I can't answer. Psychological is all I can guess. But that is a "difference" that I just don't believe one can be punished for. Especially when it was found that the Colts had balls with inflation issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DABEARSDABOMB Posted May 14, 2015 Report Share Posted May 14, 2015 The why I can't answer. Psychological is all I can guess. But that is a "difference" that I just don't believe one can be punished for. Especially when it was found that the Colts had balls with inflation issues. I am glad the Pats are out on the offensive today. This whole situation has been totally botched by Goodell and his stooges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mongo3451 Posted May 14, 2015 Report Share Posted May 14, 2015 But the thing is, I have felt thousands of footballs. I know. It is difficult to believe anyone not involved on a regular basis with footballs TODAY really knows. What you probably remember from HS is not the same. I know it doesn't feel different when its close to the range. Drastically under? Sure. And that is where the HS balls and their "kicking ball" BS comes into play. But when it is close nobody can tell. It is guess work at best. I own an official NFL football and can tell the difference. Basketball, soccer and volleyball players know when the pressure is different. For God's sake NASCAR drivers can feel slight differences in tire pressure. Your hands must be meant for modeling in hamburger commercials if you can't feel the grip difference...:-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrackerDog Posted May 14, 2015 Report Share Posted May 14, 2015 I own an official NFL football and can tell the difference. Basketball, soccer and volleyball players know when the pressure is different. For God's sake NASCAR drivers can feel slight differences in tire pressure. Your hands must be meant for modeling in hamburger commercials if you can't feel the grip difference...:-) Yeah, the idea that there's no detectable difference is ludicrous. And for Jason to say he handles thousands. Yes, they're all likely properly inflated! Unless he was officiating a Patriots game, that is! Look, I think most of us have played a little football here and there. Some more than others. And when I play with an official ball, properly inflated, my hand isn't strong enough to grip it well for a consistent spiral. So I take a pound or two out to make it fit my hand better. I'm a 50 year old suburban dude, not an NFL QB. If you can't play with the ball as specified in the god damn rules, hang em up sport! You're done. And then all this BS with the Pats now saying the deflator, a guy they suspended, was calling himself that because he was losing weigh. PLEASE! They're embarrassing themselves now. Just shut up and take your punishment like a man. Geez. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chitownhustla Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 I am glad the Pats are out on the offensive today. This whole situation has been totally botched by Goodell and his stooges. Goodell seems to want to screw this up even more. In a press release, Goodell is quoted as saying, "We reached these decisions after extensive discussion with Troy Vincent and many others." How can he appoint himself as the neutral arbitrator, he helped come up with the penalty??? The NFLPA wants Goodell to testify as well. Just appoint someone else to oversee the appeal process, unless they want this to go to court. Maybe they want this to go to court. If Im Roger I want this issue to go away as fast as possible. Lets get back to talking about football not this topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrackerDog Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 If Im Roger I want this issue to go away as fast as possible. Lets get back to talking about football not this topic. If I'm the Pats I want this to go away faster. Goodell is the Commissioner and any decision he makes regarding one team or another is going to be dissatisfactory to that team. Most of the other execs from around the league I've heard talk about this are with Roger. The Pats look like huge assholes in this and dragging it out will only make that worse. Now I'm disappointed he didn't suspend Brady for a full season. At least then all this whining would make some sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskan Grizzly Posted May 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 How can he appoint himself as the neutral arbitrator, he helped come up with the penalty??? The NFLPA wants Goodell to testify as well. That's the beauty of working within the confines of a business, in this case the NFL. They make the rules for their company. You break their rules, you pay their penalties. Since this isn't a criminal process, you don't have the need/luxury of having a third party look into it. Don't have to. Just appoint someone else to oversee the appeal process, unless they want this to go to court. Maybe they want this to go to court. If you're the NFL, you may in fact want it to go to court. I'm surprised Brady and his attorneys are willing to take the risk. If he (Brady) were forced to play by the rules of the court, rather than the NFL, something tells me he'd find himself in a bigger mess than he already is. The most desired for Brady (or smartest) would probably to look into getting a disinterested arbitrator involved, if they can. Not sure how league rules handle that. I know normally in union dealings that's where a lot of settlement decisions head. If Im Roger I want this issue to go away as fast as possible. Lets get back to talking about football not this topic. You're probably right. But not for the same reason. Given the past 1-2 years and all the other bad publicity I'm sure Goodell would just as soon be done and over with all of it. Not because Brady is going to come out on top of it all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrackerDog Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 That's the beauty of working within the confines of a business, in this case the NFL. They make the rules for their company. You break their rules, you pay their penalties. Since this isn't a criminal process, you don't have the need/luxury of having a third party look into it. Don't have to. Correct. But as you mention later in your post, it'll depend on the wording of the CBA and how much discretion is given to the Commissioner. If Goodell followed the letter of the CBA then the courts won't even take the case. And again, I don't think Brady and the Pats want this ending up there, regardless. This is them blowing smoke to try to garner some public support. Thus far it's failing miserably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 It looks like there have been two rule changes over the past 20 years, one in 1999 that introduced the kicking balls, then in 2006, they allowed the visiting team to bring in their own set of footballs. I find it funny that you could basically do anything to the ball prior to 1999 and it was ok. Teams are supposed to scrub off the film on the ball prior to the game, but as long as the balls pass the inspection they can be prepared however the team chooses. The previous rule was put into effect because kickers were doing a little too much "busting up" before a game. Balls being used for kickoffs and field goals were beginning to look more like beaten-up basketballs than footballs. Balls were microwaved, soaked in different liquids, placed in saunas -- anything to soften the seams and give the footballs a bigger sweet spot. So in 1999 the NFL decided to have a set of balls marked with a "K" to be opened by officials just prior to kickoff to be used in the kicking game. And visiting offenses were forced to use balls supplied by the home team, usually right out of the box with no preparation Here is a blurb from Brady: "The thing is, every quarterback likes it a little bit different," Brady said. "Some like them blown up a little bit more, some like them a little more thin, some like them a little more new, some like them really broken in." http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2006-11-2...ition-committee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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