Deflategate

[jason]

I own an official NFL football and can tell the difference. Basketball, soccer and volleyball players know when the pressure is different. For God's sake NASCAR drivers can feel slight differences in tire pressure. Your hands must be meant for modeling in hamburger commercials if you can't feel the grip difference...:-)

 

As do I, but I doubt it's the exact same as the new balls they get for each game. Break out the football one day, inflate it, deflate it, go between a range of 1 PSI. If you can honestly tell the difference each time, then you should apply for the job in the NFL. I bet if we introduced another football with similar but different PSI you'd have trouble telling them apart.

 

Yeah, the idea that there's no detectable difference is ludicrous. And for Jason to say he handles thousands. Yes, they're all likely properly inflated! Unless he was officiating a Patriots game, that is!

 

Look, I think most of us have played a little football here and there. Some more than others. And when I play with an official ball, properly inflated, my hand isn't strong enough to grip it well for a consistent spiral. So I take a pound or two out to make it fit my hand better. I'm a 50 year old suburban dude, not an NFL QB. If you can't play with the ball as specified in the god damn rules, hang em up sport! You're done.

 

And then all this BS with the Pats now saying the deflator, a guy they suspended, was calling himself that because he was losing weigh. PLEASE! They're embarrassing themselves now. Just shut up and take your punishment like a man. Geez.

 

Nope. We often feel under and over inflated balls as officials. Had an arena game this weekend and there were a few that were over-inflated by about .5, and nobody could tell the difference when we grabbed the footballs. One was very underinflated and we threw it back. It's got to be a lot to really notice.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

Saw this article today. Found it interesting. Good perspective that I hadn't considered. Goes to show how arrogant Kraft and crew are....

 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/if-the...jUDr1?ocid=iehp

[Chitownhustla]

Saw this article today. Found it interesting. Good perspective that I hadn't considered. Goes to show how arrogant Kraft and crew are....

 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/if-the...jUDr1?ocid=iehp

 

 

Here is new one that came out today......Looks like the NFL may have asked the Pats to suspend them.

 

 

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/theres-story...-135458009.html

 

 

 

 

I read somewhere the NFL and Pats are in talks about the penalty put on the Team Draft picks and money. So I guess Tom brady and NFLPA are fighting the 4 games and The Pats are talking with the NFL about getting the penalty lowered.

 

 

 

 

[CrackerDog]

It was just announced that the Pats will not appeal. Good decision IMO.

[madlithuanian]

Agreed.

 

I'd imagine the Brady appeal should happen quickly now.

 

It was just announced that the Pats will not appeal. Good decision IMO.

 

[AZ54]

Great post.

 

Was it cheating? Sure, if Brady actually knew.

Did it provide an advantage? No.

 

Not one person in that MTV video threw a pass but to be fair I only watched about 6 or 7 people before realizing they are not doing anything close to a fair test. In fact they are so smart at MTV they labeled it a weight difference. I see no evidence of professional football quarterbacks, not even college football QBs who are more expert in handling a football, maybe they asked them later in the video.

 

In any case it does not matter because the point of this is did Brady cheat to gain an advantage for himself. It mattered nothing with tackling ability of the Colts, nothing with play calling, as so many others are apt to point out. It doesn't even matter if other QBs don't find it advantageous.

 

We can say the same things about steroid use. Prove who gained an advantage from that on game day. GMs who send text messages down to the field during games. Any advantage there? Teams who pumped in fan noise through their loud speaker system. Can you prove that was advantageous?

[CrackerDog]

We can say the same things about steroid use. Prove who gained an advantage from that on game day. GMs who send text messages down to the field during games. Any advantage there? Teams who pumped in fan noise through their loud speaker system. Can you prove that was advantageous?

 

You may be stretching a bit here but I agree with you nonetheless because the point is exactly what you're saying: Where do you draw the line on letting players (or teams) decide which rules are real and which aren't? The rule exists, he used other people to break it, it's clear he knew what was going on, he deserves punishment.

 

And the team was supportive of the rule breaking so they got what they deserved too.

[Chitownhustla]

Not one person in that MTV video threw a pass but to be fair I only watched about 6 or 7 people before realizing they are not doing anything close to a fair test. In fact they are so smart at MTV they labeled it a weight difference. I see no evidence of professional football quarterbacks, not even college football QBs who are more expert in handling a football, maybe they asked them later in the video.

 

In any case it does not matter because the point of this is did Brady cheat to gain an advantage for himself. It mattered nothing with tackling ability of the Colts, nothing with play calling, as so many others are apt to point out. It doesn't even matter if other QBs don't find it advantageous.

 

We can say the same things about steroid use. Prove who gained an advantage from that on game day. GMs who send text messages down to the field during games. Any advantage there? Teams who pumped in fan noise through their loud speaker system. Can you prove that was advantageous?

 

Sorry bro but you lost your argument once you questioned if Steroids gives someone an advantage on game day.

 

 

Steroids = fact it gives a player an advantage, a big advantage. Football is a game of speed and power, steroids equals stronger and faster players. Tell me how you cant prove that???

Speaker system= fact, it makes it harder for the opposing team to hear

GM Text= i dont think it gave them advantage...if anything it made it harder for the coaches to do their jobs, side note why do coaches have their phones on them during a game???

 

 

1 pound of PSI difference.....I dont think it creates an advantage but I can see how others can think it would. Either way TOM BRADY WILL STILL BE TOM BRADY WITH A 12.5 PSI ball.

Stick some steroids in Tom and he will be able to run faster, throw harder and farther and recover quicker.

 

 

 

Anyone questioning if the Super Bowl footballs used had 12.5 PSI???????

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Chitownhustla]

You may be stretching a bit here but I agree with you nonetheless because the point is exactly what you're saying: Where do you draw the line on letting players (or teams) decide which rules are real and which aren't? The rule exists, he used other people to break it, it's clear he knew what was going on, he deserves punishment.

 

And the team was supportive of the rule breaking so they got what they deserved too.

 

 

I agree with you, rules were broken. They needed to be punished.

[jason]

Sorry bro but you lost your argument once you questioned if Steroids gives someone an advantage on game day.

 

 

Steroids = fact it gives a player an advantage, a big advantage. Football is a game of speed and power, steroids equals stronger and faster players. Tell me how you cant prove that???

Speaker system= fact, it makes it harder for the opposing team to hear

GM Text= i dont think it gave them advantage...if anything it made it harder for the coaches to do their jobs, side note why do coaches have their phones on them during a game???

 

 

1 pound of PSI difference.....I dont think it creates an advantage but I can see how others can think it would. Either way TOM BRADY WILL STILL BE TOM BRADY WITH A 12.5 PSI ball.

Stick some steroids in Tom and he will be able to run faster, throw harder and farther and recover quicker.

 

 

 

Anyone questioning if the Super Bowl footballs used had 12.5 PSI???????

[Alaskan Grizzly]

1 pound of PSI difference.....I dont think it creates an advantage but I can see how others can think it would. Either way TOM BRADY WILL STILL BE TOM BRADY WITH A 12.5 PSI ball.

 

Anyone questioning if the Super Bowl footballs used had 12.5 PSI???????

 

At this point this whole issue of this, specifically about Tom Brady, isn't so much about the PSI in the footballs. The report clearly said that the footballs were manipulated and that Brady (probably) had knowledge of it. The question remains; if it doesn't give a clear advantage, why do it? Anyway, my point. Brady had some knowledge of the alterations and when questioned about it lied and did not cooperate with the investigation. Robert Kraft has decided to avoid the embarrassment of the appeal process; how long before Brady follows suit?

[Chitownhustla]

At this point this whole issue of this, specifically about Tom Brady, isn't so much about the PSI in the footballs. The report clearly said that the footballs were manipulated and that Brady (probably) had knowledge of it. The question remains; if it doesn't give a clear advantage, why do it? Anyway, my point. Brady had some knowledge of the alterations and when questioned about it lied and did not cooperate with the investigation. Robert Kraft has decided to avoid the embarrassment of the appeal process; how long before Brady follows suit?

 

What the entire post was about had nothing to do with the rule that was broken, only the advantage created not created compared to other rule infractions and advantages gained.

 

 

I agree with you, they broke a rule they deserve to get punished.

[AZ54]

Sorry bro but you lost your argument once you questioned if Steroids gives someone an advantage on game day.

 

 

Steroids = fact it gives a player an advantage, a big advantage. Football is a game of speed and power, steroids equals stronger and faster players. Tell me how you cant prove that???

Speaker system= fact, it makes it harder for the opposing team to hear

GM Text= i dont think it gave them advantage...if anything it made it harder for the coaches to do their jobs, side note why do coaches have their phones on them during a game???

 

 

1 pound of PSI difference.....I dont think it creates an advantage but I can see how others can think it would. Either way TOM BRADY WILL STILL BE TOM BRADY WITH A 12.5 PSI ball.

Stick some steroids in Tom and he will be able to run faster, throw harder and farther and recover quicker.

 

 

 

Anyone questioning if the Super Bowl footballs used had 12.5 PSI???????

 

Because to prove a theory you must have a baseline data set or at least two tests with just the one variable different. You don't have that for any particular game, or any one single player to where you can say the steroids made the difference. Can you see him defend the same offensive play in the 1st half with and 2nd half without the steroids? No, so you have no way of knowing exactly in which way his use of steroids impacted any particular play much less the final outcome of the game. The steroids are just an example where people can more easily jump to the conclusion that using them must have helped that player.

 

Yet that is the argument the Brady supporters throw out.... "You can't prove that it impacted the game."

[Chitownhustla]

Because to prove a theory you must have a baseline data set or at least two tests with just the one variable different. You don't have that for any particular game, or any one single player to where you can say the steroids made the difference. Can you see him defend the same offensive play in the 1st half with and 2nd half without the steroids? No, so you have no way of knowing exactly in which way his use of steroids impacted any particular play much less the final outcome of the game. The steroids are just an example where people can more easily jump to the conclusion that using them must have helped that player.

 

Yet that is the argument the Brady supporters throw out.... "You can't prove that it impacted the game."

 

You don't think steroids gives a player an advantage over the same player not taking steroids?????????

[AZ54]

You don't think steroids gives a player an advantage over the same player not taking steroids?????????

 

Please read the sentence that says "you have no way to prove how a particular player's use of steroids affected the outcome of a particular game."

 

That is totally different from the fact I believe steroids improve a players performance in the game, and does influence the outcome on the field on some plays.

 

The discussion here is around what the Patriots fan's say: Prove it helped him or the team. Likewise, Jason's point is that we cannot tell the difference in these footballs therefore since we fans cannot tell the difference even if he did cheat it simply doesn't matter. To that I say good luck proving steroids helped someone make a tackle, or catch a particular pass, or run for a TD.

 

We know those performance improvements affect the game even if we can discern exactly in which way. If Tom Brady, as per his own statements, prefers footballs with less air pressure, then it is logical to assume that improved his performance in those games where that was done. If nothing else it made him more comfortable in his work environment when throwing a pass, an advantage he should not have had.

 

Whether or not it would improve my performance; whether or not I can prove it helped him and his team, or whether or not I can tell the difference in the footballs is as irrelevant to the argument as it would be if we were talking about steroids. I can no more prove how it helped Brady and his team in the game than I could prove how one player using steroids altered a game. Do you or anyone else have data about how fast that player ran without steroids? how well he could tackle before and after? No. You just know that those things do affect a game. In the same way we know, from Brady's own words, that lower air pressure improved his ability to throw.

 

Similarly, we can't prove how a GM texting to the coaches on the field helped their team. The GM was still punished because he violated the rules. We can't prove how the Falcons use of fake crowd noise affected their games but they were punished as well. We know crowd noise can affect games but it doesn't always affect every play. Nonetheless we accept that it was wrong because it might have affected one play, and that play might have won the game. Why can't we accept that a QB who says he throws better with lower air pressure in the footballs had an advantage when the air pressure was in fact low ...even if we can't prove exactly what that advantage was?

[Chitownhustla]

Please read the sentence that says "you have no way to prove how a particular player's use of steroids affected the outcome of a particular game."

 

That is totally different from the fact I believe steroids improve a players performance in the game, and does influence the outcome on the field on some plays.

 

The discussion here is around what the Patriots fan's say: Prove it helped him or the team. Likewise, Jason's point is that we cannot tell the difference in these footballs therefore since we fans cannot tell the difference even if he did cheat it simply doesn't matter. To that I say good luck proving steroids helped someone make a tackle, or catch a particular pass, or run for a TD.

 

We know those performance improvements affect the game even if we can discern exactly in which way. If Tom Brady, as per his own statements, prefers footballs with less air pressure, then it is logical to assume that improved his performance in those games where that was done. If nothing else it made him more comfortable in his work environment when throwing a pass, an advantage he should not have had.

 

Whether or not it would improve my performance; whether or not I can prove it helped him and his team, or whether or not I can tell the difference in the footballs is as irrelevant to the argument as it would be if we were talking about steroids. I can no more prove how it helped Brady and his team in the game than I could prove how one player using steroids altered a game. Do you or anyone else have data about how fast that player ran without steroids? how well he could tackle before and after? No. You just know that those things do affect a game. In the same way we know, from Brady's own words, that lower air pressure improved his ability to throw.

 

Similarly, we can't prove how a GM texting to the coaches on the field helped their team. The GM was still punished because he violated the rules. We can't prove how the Falcons use of fake crowd noise affected their games but they were punished as well. We know crowd noise can affect games but it doesn't always affect every play. Nonetheless we accept that it was wrong because it might have affected one play, and that play might have won the game. Why can't we accept that a QB who says he throws better with lower air pressure in the footballs had an advantage when the air pressure was in fact low ...even if we can't prove exactly what that advantage was?

 

I disagree with what you are saying but lets just say you are right. IF your statement is true Tom Brady should have performed worse in the 2nd half of the Colts and the SB. But he didn't, he performed exactly how Tom Brady will always perform.

 

 

So please explain why Tom Brady performance did not decline with the 12.5 psi balls?????

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mongo3451]

I disagree with what you are saying but lets just say you are right. IF your statement is true Tom Brady should have performed worse in the 2nd half of the Colts and the SB. But he didn't, he performed exactly how Tom Brady will always perform.

 

So please explain why Tom Brady performance did not decline with the 12.5 psi balls?????

I think you actually agree with AZ, but haven't figured it out yet. He's saying you can't prove or disprove it. Isn't that what you are saying?

[Chitownhustla]

I think you actually agree with AZ, but haven't figured it out yet. He's saying you can't prove or disprove it. Isn't that what you are saying?

 

I do not think the PSI affected any outcome of any game.

 

I believe Steroids do, even though there is no statistical data to prove it.

 

I do not believe the GM texting the coaches created any advantage, i think it created a disadvantage. No coach needs the GM telling them what to do.

 

I do believe pumping noise into a stadium will affect the outcome of a game even tho there is data to prove it.

 

 

Taking Tom Brady's play in the 2nd half of the Colts game and SB proves my point about the change of the outcome of a game when it comes to the PSI of a football.

 

Give Brady a 12.5 PSI football and the outcome of the game will not change vs a 11.5. Take steroids away from Adrian Peterson (if he was on them) and his performance will decline, is there some data out there to prove it.....No. This is all common sense.

 

The Pats broke a rule so they should be punished, we agree on this.

 

 

 

[Mongo3451]

I do not think the PSI affected any outcome of any game.

 

I believe Steroids do, even though there is no statistical data to prove it.

 

I do not believe the GM texting the coaches created any advantage, i think it created a disadvantage. No coach needs the GM telling them what to do.

 

I do believe pumping noise into a stadium will affect the outcome of a game even tho there is data to prove it.

 

 

Taking Tom Brady's play in the 2nd half of the Colts game and SB proves my point about the change of the outcome of a game when it comes to the PSI of a football.

 

Give Brady a 12.5 PSI football and the outcome of the game will not change vs a 11.5. Take steroids away from Adrian Peterson (if he was on them) and his performance will decline, is there some data out there to prove it.....No. This is all common sense.

 

The Pats broke a rule so they should be punished, we agree on this.

Gotcha.

 

 

[Alaskan Grizzly]

I do not think the PSI affected any outcome of any game.

 

I believe Steroids do, even though there is no statistical data to prove it.

 

I do not believe the GM texting the coaches created any advantage, i think it created a disadvantage. No coach needs the GM telling them what to do.

 

I do believe pumping noise into a stadium will affect the outcome of a game even tho there is data to prove it.

 

 

Taking Tom Brady's play in the 2nd half of the Colts game and SB proves my point about the change of the outcome of a game when it comes to the PSI of a football.

 

Give Brady a 12.5 PSI football and the outcome of the game will not change vs a 11.5. Take steroids away from Adrian Peterson (if he was on them) and his performance will decline, is there some data out there to prove it.....No. This is all common sense.

 

The Pats broke a rule so they should be punished, we agree on this.

 

Answer me this, why even do it? If it doesn't affect the outcome, as you claim, why go through all the cloak and dagger of doing it? And then when asked about it, lie?

 

[Chitownhustla]

Answer me this, why even do it? If it doesn't affect the outcome, as you claim, why go through all the cloak and dagger of doing it? And then when asked about it, lie?

 

Answer me this, if the deflated ball created an advantage for Tom Brady why did his performance not suffer in the 2nd half of the Colts game?

 

 

 

And why did the Colts performance not get better in the 2nd half with 4 of their balls being under the 12.5 PSI rule (Wells Report)??????

 

 

 

 

 

 

['TD']

Answer me this, if the deflated ball created an advantage for Tom Brady why did his performance not suffer in the 2nd half of the Colts game?

 

 

 

And why did the Colts performance not get better in the 2nd half with 4 of their balls being under the 12.5 PSI rule (Wells Report)??????

The Colts offense and Patriots D happened in the 2nd half. The Colts were atrocious. They had three different 3 and outs and threw 2 interceptions. One TD of the Patriots was only 13 yards and another was 40 yards. In the first half, the Patriots only scored 2 TD's and a FG, but the FG was from the 3 yard line and his INT was on first down at the 26.

 

And the Colts didn't have 4 balls under 12.5 PSI in the second half. I have no Idea where you got that from.

[Chitownhustla]

The Colts offense and Patriots D happened in the 2nd half. The Colts were atrocious. They had three different 3 and outs and threw 2 interceptions. One TD of the Patriots was only 13 yards and another was 40 yards. In the first half, the Patriots only scored 2 TD's and a FG, but the FG was from the 3 yard line and his INT was on first down at the 26.

 

And the Colts didn't have 4 balls under 12.5 PSI in the second half. I have no Idea where you got that from.

 

 

Sorry, it was 3 out of 4 that were under the 12.5 psi.

 

Page 73 of the Wells report.

['TD']

Sorry, it was 3 out of 4 that were under the 12.5 psi.

 

Page 73 of the Wells report.

No air

was added to the Colts balls tested because they each registered within the permissible inflation

range on at least one of the two gauges used.

 

It was only low on one gauge, so they let the balls be used. They were within range on the other gauge.

 

On the gauge on which they were low, it was still minimally low. The difference between the gauges remained consistent. The gauge average .4 pounds lower for the Colts and .45 pounds lower for the Patriots in the first half than the other, and a consistent .4 pounds low for both teams in the second half.

[Chitownhustla]

Answer me this, why even do it? If it doesn't affect the outcome, as you claim, why go through all the cloak and dagger of doing it? And then when asked about it, lie?

 

The only thing I can think of is that he prefers a softer ball. I actually like a harder football, i tend to throw better spirals with a more inflated ball.

 

Im just throwing idea's out there, but maybe he throws a tighter spiral or looser spiral with a softer ball, only speculating. Some WR's like catching Peyton Manning type passes better then A Rodger laser beam throws. So Im just throwing both ideas out there.

 

I guess I would compare it to certain players like longer spikes while others like shorter. Does one make the other guy better or faster??? I dont know, I dont think so.

 

It doesn't mean he throws a better ball though. He clearly can make any throw with any ball. If you watch Peyton Manning throw a football a lot of times they are not tight spirals, but they are dead nuts on the money tho.

 

 

Anyone that wants to argue that Tom Brady performance changes with a 12.5 ball compared to a 11.5 ball clearly missed the 2nd half of the Colts game and SB. I only use those two games because we know that the balls where off in the first half and Im pretty sure the balls used in the 2nd half and SB where perfectly inflated.

 

 

Regardless of everything I just wrote, the Pats broke the rule and deserve to get punished.

 

 

For all you guys that are on the side that Tom Brady sees some type of performance lift by underinflated footballs why can no one explain why his performance in the SB did not suffer because he used a 12.5 psi ball????? In the biggest game of the year, the most pressure packed game a qb will play,Tom Brady had to throw a 12.5 pound ball and he still did what Tom Brady has been doing ever since he started in the NFL.