ASHKUM BEAR Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 So as a new GM I'm going to spend my first pick on an injured player who is going to be behind a Pro Bowl player. That doesn't make sense to me as well as drafting a QB in round 1 if you have committed to Cutler for basically 2 years. When I started this mock thread it is with the idea that this team should strengthen the strongest unit on the team and improve the weakest. By having no knowledge of the history of Pace and Fox when it comes to drafting this is total speculation and I still believe that we should go BPA no matter what position and at the 7th pick a NT is not going to be a difference maker but a WR can get you points. Hard to say how they will use the draft. They could build a great offense to bring a rookie QB into with a 2016 draft pick or build a defense. I just don't think they will value a wr that high after cutting BM and signing Royal. I can see them going later in the draft since it is deep with talent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scs787 Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 So as a new GM I'm going to spend my first pick on an injured player who is going to be behind a Pro Bowl player. That doesn't make sense to me as well as drafting a QB in round 1 if you have committed to Cutler for basically 2 years. When I started this mock thread it is with the idea that this team should strengthen the strongest unit on the team and improve the weakest. By having no knowledge of the history of Pace and Fox when it comes to drafting this is total speculation and I still believe that we should go BPA no matter what position and at the 7th pick a NT is not going to be a difference maker but a WR can get you points. I really think people are undervaluing the value of the NT position. For the last few years when people brought up the 3-4, one of the main responses from the naysayers was "It's hard to find that big nose tackle to make it work". Now all of a sudden we think we can plug in just any ol guy. I know it's tough for people to look beyond the stats when looking at impact, but really think about it. When you're talking about a guy who demands a double team play in and play out, you're then playing 10 on 9 football. Your pass rushers aren't getting double teamed, your middle linebackers are playing clean, because your pass rushers aren't getting double teamed the pressure you put on the QB is gonna help the secondary. It's not the most glamorous position, but it could very well be the most impactful position. Here's a good article from 2010... http://espn.go.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/...nse-on-the-nose Without a nose, the face of the defense disappears. "If you don't have a good nose guard, you don't have a 3-4 defense," two-time Pro Bowl center LeCharles Bentley said at the NFL scouting combine in Lucas Oil Stadium. "You can build everything else around it. You can have a great pass-rusher. You can have a great safety like Troy Polamalu. But if you don't have a solid nose guard? You can't run a 3-4. That's the whole basis of the defense." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemonej Posted March 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 I really think people are undervaluing the value of the NT position. For the last few years when people brought up the 3-4, one of the main responses from the naysayers was "It's hard to find that big nose tackle to make it work". Now all of a sudden we think we can plug in just any ol guy. I know it's tough for people to look beyond the stats when looking at impact, but really think about it. When you're talking about a guy who demands a double team play in and play out, you're then playing 10 on 9 football. Your pass rushers aren't getting double teamed, your middle linebackers are playing clean, because your pass rushers aren't getting double teamed the pressure you put on the QB is gonna help the secondary. It's not the most glamorous position, but it could very well be the most impactful position. Here's a good article from 2010... http://espn.go.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/...nse-on-the-nose Sc we have a guy on the roster that actually played the position in this scheme and have a DC that has utilized some smaller guys at the position recently in his last place of employment. Why is that so difficult for eveyone to understand that maybe this staff is going to take a year to evaluate what they have and go from there.The Bears drafted a lot o young defensive players last year and they need to see what they have before they decide what to do going forward.That is why I'm an advocate of strengthening the offense to keep the defense off the field which helps improve the defensive numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scs787 Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 Sc we have a guy on the roster that actually played the position in this scheme and have a DC that has utilized some smaller guys at the position recently in his last place of employment. Why is that so difficult for eveyone to understand that maybe this staff is going to take a year to evaluate what they have and go from there.The Bears drafted a lot o young defensive players last year and they need to see what they have before they decide what to do going forward.That is why I'm an advocate of strengthening the offense to keep the defense off the field which helps improve the defensive numbers. Fangio also had Justin Smith on that line demanding double teams. If you have a guy like JJ Watt or Justin Smith, the necessity for a bigger guy is out the window. You NEED that 1 guy who demands double teams, and I simply don't think a 34 year old Jay Ratliff, who is years removed from playing that position is still that guy. Hell, I just read on his wikipedia page that the reason the Cowboys moved him from NT to 3-4 DE is because " there were already a worries that his size and style of play could shorten his career and talks about moving him to defensive end" I'm a firm believer in that the coaching will indeed help a lot of these guys, but I simply couldn't pass on a guy who could be the next Haloti Ngata because we already have a guy who may or may not be able to still play the position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASHKUM BEAR Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 Fangio also had Justin Smith on that line demanding double teams. If you have a guy like JJ Watt or Justin Smith, the necessity for a bigger guy is out the window. You NEED that 1 guy who demands double teams. and I simply don't think a 34 year old Jay Ratliff, who is years removed from playing that position is still that guy. Hell, I just read on his wikipedia page that the reason the Cowboys moved him from NT to 3-4 DE is because " there were already a worries that his size and style of play could shorten his career and talks about moving him to defensive end" I'm a firm believer in that the coaching will indeed help a lot of these guys, but I simply couldn't pass on a guy who could be the next Haloti Ngata because we already have a guy who may or may not be able to still play the position. I agree this D line needs a commanding player to draw doubles. Ratliff hasn't stayed healthy and that leaves Ferguson and Sutton. If they had depth, they would've cut Ratliff imo. Since DT/3-4 DE is a dire need, they will be grabbing a starting quality player in rd 1 or 2. I wouldn't be opposed with a Jordan Phillips or Carl Davis is they are there RD2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stinger226 Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 Fangio also had Justin Smith on that line demanding double teams. If you have a guy like JJ Watt or Justin Smith, the necessity for a bigger guy is out the window. You NEED that 1 guy who demands double teams, and I simply don't think a 34 year old Jay Ratliff, who is years removed from playing that position is still that guy. Hell, I just read on his wikipedia page that the reason the Cowboys moved him from NT to 3-4 DE is because " there were already a worries that his size and style of play could shorten his career and talks about moving him to defensive end" I'm a firm believer in that the coaching will indeed help a lot of these guys, but I simply couldn't pass on a guy who could be the next Haloti Ngata because we already have a guy who may or may not be able to still play the position. They may draft Shelton, and he will be a good player, but the most impactful position on the 3-4 is rush OLB. That came out of Fangio's mouth,I will find the interview and post it. If Shelton is not the BPA, he will not be our draft pick. We simply cant draft for need , that's what bad teams do. Shelton will not be the BPA at 7, no matter what you think. He is a top 15 player not a top 10. We will see what the league thinks on draft day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASHKUM BEAR Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 They may draft Shelton, and he will be a good player, but the most impactful position on the 3-4 is rush OLB. That came out of Fangio's mouth,I will find the interview and post it. If Shelton is not the BPA, he will not be our draft pick. We simply cant draft for need , that's what bad teams do. Shelton will not be the BPA at 7, no matter what you think. He is a top 15 player not a top 10. We will see what the league thinks on draft day. OLB may be, maybe that's why they signed McPhee when this team already had 6 capable guys slotted there. Two guys in this draft i think will be the type of OLB you want...Fowler and Dupree. Big and fast enough to not be a liability. Bad teams do have to draft for need because they have holes and the Bears are bad. You have to look at how the roster is composed and when contracts expire. Those will be the players selected. Once Pace has the holes plugged with youth, they will or can do the BPA's. Use rotoworld and make a chart of all Bears signed, when they become a FA and then you see glaring needs in a 2 year window or further. The Bears have to use the draft as their primary resource for these needs. Free agency needs to be avoided and used as a filler if the draft looks unlikely. That's why I feel trading down makes the most sense. OLB might be the best player available, but the Bears have more money at that position with only 2 guys capable of playing at once. WR? They could very well go there, I wouldn't be surprised or mind. CB or S are huge needs, but I don't see one at #7. DT or a 3-4 End is needed, C is there also. Then secondary needs RB. QB, TE, OT. Then you have your upgrade thoughts MLB etc. Well March madness and beer has me writing a book...lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stinger226 Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 OLB may be, maybe that's why they signed McPhee when this team already had 6 capable guys slotted there. Two guys in this draft i think will be the type of OLB you want...Fowler and Dupree. Big and fast enough to not be a liability. Bad teams do have to draft for need because they have holes and the Bears are bad. You have to look at how the roster is composed and when contracts expire. Those will be the players selected. Once Pace has the holes plugged with youth, they will or can do the BPA's. Use rotoworld and make a chart of all Bears signed, when they become a FA and then you see glaring needs in a 2 year window or further. The Bears have to use the draft as their primary resource for these needs. Free agency needs to be avoided and used as a filler if the draft looks unlikely. That's why I feel trading down makes the most sense. OLB might be the best player available, but the Bears have more money at that position with only 2 guys capable of playing at once. WR? They could very well go there, I wouldn't be surprised or mind. CB or S are huge needs, but I don't see one at #7. DT or a 3-4 End is needed, C is there also. Then secondary needs RB. QB, TE, OT. Then you have your upgrade thoughts MLB etc. Well March madness and beer has me writing a book...lol I didnt make those statements on the proposal that we draft one, like you said McPhee is that guy. I was referring to scs as NT being the most impactful position on defense. If Fowler drops to us, I see us taking him, but more think that Cooper or White will be there. Also could be a OT. We could make the case for any position on the team, we have so many needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParkerBear7 Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 I could see us doing some trading, but dont think Gurley will go that high, more of late 1st round valve. What other choices did you have at 15? Stinger, click on the link provided and you can see every pick for each team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParkerBear7 Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 I am not sure he will be a redshirt player year 1. He said he is on schedule for "contact" in July according to his doctor/therapist. He also said his rehab is going very well and it is an every day process with no days off. The Bears are doing homework on him and showing interest, so it may be a possibility. Pace also stated he wants to get Chicago back to it's roots in football with running the ball and having great defenses. I'd be very disappointed if he was taken at 7, but if they can make a trade and get him 25-32, I'd be fine. SCS, in this example let's assume the Bears really like Gurley but not at 7 and don't want to wait and risk he may be available later similar to how Emery felt about the Kyle Long pick two years ago, then you get your man. In this scenario, Bears could not work out a better deal but managed to trade back to mid first round. I ran the mock assuming the Bears wanted Gurley and after their due diligence felt he could be added to the mix year one and then be the #1 next year. Additionally, many analyst feel their is not much separation in the DE/OLB class or the top 5 or so DT's in this years draft and decided trading back to acquire more picks while taking combo BPA & need to add much need talent to the roster was the best way to begin a quick rebuild. Specifically, I ignored OLB due to the shear numbers currently on the roster with the thought of addressing OLB / ILB next year via FA/Draft pending the performance analysis of 2015 play from current group. Other than that I think I accomplished filling many needs with quality prospects with 8 out of 12 draft picks were allocated to the Defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParkerBear7 Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 I really think people are undervaluing the value of the NT position. For the last few years when people brought up the 3-4, one of the main responses from the naysayers was "It's hard to find that big nose tackle to make it work". Now all of a sudden we think we can plug in just any ol guy. I know it's tough for people to look beyond the stats when looking at impact, but really think about it. When you're talking about a guy who demands a double team play in and play out, you're then playing 10 on 9 football. Your pass rushers aren't getting double teamed, your middle linebackers are playing clean, because your pass rushers aren't getting double teamed the pressure you put on the QB is gonna help the secondary. It's not the most glamorous position, but it could very well be the most impactful position. Here's a good article from 2010... http://espn.go.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/...nse-on-the-nose SCS - your assuming that out of the current DT's on the roster that they can not play NT, we simply do not know this or what the Bears feel about the position. My mock had three DT's that are versatile to play DE on the 3-4 as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParkerBear7 Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 Fangio also had Justin Smith on that line demanding double teams. If you have a guy like JJ Watt or Justin Smith, the necessity for a bigger guy is out the window. You NEED that 1 guy who demands double teams, and I simply don't think a 34 year old Jay Ratliff, who is years removed from playing that position is still that guy. Hell, I just read on his wikipedia page that the reason the Cowboys moved him from NT to 3-4 DE is because " there were already a worries that his size and style of play could shorten his career and talks about moving him to defensive end" I'm a firm believer in that the coaching will indeed help a lot of these guys, but I simply couldn't pass on a guy who could be the next Haloti Ngata because we already have a guy who may or may not be able to still play the position. Again, not saying your wrong but there is at-least NFL game tape on the Bears current DT's and Pace may not want to mortgage their first Draft at number seven with a boom or bust pick that some feel about the player that could be available there especially if the top 3 defensive studs are off the board. Many experts project Shelton mid first round as do they with Gurley pre ACL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParkerBear7 Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 OLB may be, maybe that's why they signed McPhee when this team already had 6 capable guys slotted there. Two guys in this draft i think will be the type of OLB you want...Fowler and Dupree. Big and fast enough to not be a liability. Bad teams do have to draft for need because they have holes and the Bears are bad. You have to look at how the roster is composed and when contracts expire. Those will be the players selected. Once Pace has the holes plugged with youth, they will or can do the BPA's. Use rotoworld and make a chart of all Bears signed, when they become a FA and then you see glaring needs in a 2 year window or further. The Bears have to use the draft as their primary resource for these needs. Free agency needs to be avoided and used as a filler if the draft looks unlikely. That's why I feel trading down makes the most sense. OLB might be the best player available, but the Bears have more money at that position with only 2 guys capable of playing at once. WR? They could very well go there, I wouldn't be surprised or mind. CB or S are huge needs, but I don't see one at #7. DT or a 3-4 End is needed, C is there also. Then secondary needs RB. QB, TE, OT. Then you have your upgrade thoughts MLB etc. Well March madness and beer has me writing a book...lol I see CB and Safety as possibly the biggest needs currently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemonej Posted March 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 Fangio also had Justin Smith on that line demanding double teams. If you have a guy like JJ Watt or Justin Smith, the necessity for a bigger guy is out the window. You NEED that 1 guy who demands double teams, and I simply don't think a 34 year old Jay Ratliff, who is years removed from playing that position is still that guy. Hell, I just read on his wikipedia page that the reason the Cowboys moved him from NT to 3-4 DE is because " there were already a worries that his size and style of play could shorten his career and talks about moving him to defensive end" I'm a firm believer in that the coaching will indeed help a lot of these guys, but I simply couldn't pass on a guy who could be the next Haloti Ngata because we already have a guy who may or may not be able to still play the position. I just looked up all the long time 3-4 teams first round draft picks and these are the guys that I consider to be the type of guy you are looking for and what pick they were taken. BJ Raji #9 Vince Wilfork#21 Marcel Dareus #3 Ngata #12 Lotulelel #14 Dan Williams #26 As you can se only a couple were drafted in the top 10 and only Dareus in the top 5. I agree there needs to be and addition at the position but I just don't think it would be smart to spend a top 10 pick on what may only be a 2 down player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scs787 Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 I just looked up all the long time 3-4 teams first round draft picks and these are the guys that I consider to be the type of guy you are looking for and what pick they were taken. BJ Raji #9 Vince Wilfork#21 Marcel Dareus #3 Ngata #12 Lotulelel #14 Dan Williams #26 As you can se only a couple were drafted in the top 10 and only Dareus in the top 5. I agree there needs to be and addition at the position but I just don't think it would be smart to spend a top 10 pick on what may only be a 2 down player. Go back and look to see if any of the teams drafting ahead of where those guys were drafted needed a NT/DT? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemonej Posted March 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 Go back and look to see if any of the teams drafting ahead of where those guys were drafted needed a NT/DT? There were other tackles taken in the first round but I filtered it down to NT body types example Suh and McCoy went in the top 5 but neither are a prototypical 3-4 NT and what difference does it make if the teams aren't 3-4 and looking specifically for that type of player? When I looked at it teams like Baltimore,NE and Pittsburgh continued to go OLB and Edge type player in round 1 with the exception of a secondary player or two mostly CB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scs787 Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 There were other tackles taken in the first round but I filtered it down to NT body types example Suh and McCoy went in the top 5 but neither are a prototypical 3-4 NT and what difference does it make if the teams aren't 3-4 and looking specifically for that type of player? When I looked at it teams like Baltimore,NE and Pittsburgh continued to go OLB and Edge type player in round 1 with the exception of a secondary player or two mostly CB. It makes a huge difference because those guys are scheme specific players. So a team that would be drafting them not only would have to be 3-4 teams, but they'd also have to have a hole there too. I'm looking at those teams drafts right now, and I'm not sure what you're seeing... Since 2010 each of those teams have drafted just one OLB in the first round, so I wouldn't say they continually drafted OLBs. That's one each in the last 5 drafts. Why would Baltimore draft another NT when they have Ngata? Why would NE draft another one when they had Wilfork? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemonej Posted March 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 It makes a huge difference because those guys are scheme specific players. So a team that would be drafting them not only would have to be 3-4 teams, but they'd also have to have a hole there too. I'm looking at those teams drafts right now, and I'm not sure what you're seeing... Since 2010 each of those teams have drafted just one OLB in the first round, so I wouldn't say they continually drafted OLBs. That's one each in the last 5 drafts. Why would Baltimore draft another NT when they have Ngata? Why would NE draft another one when they had Wilfork? The Ravens drafted Timmy Jernigan last year and didn't they just trade Ngata so maybe they're eyeing Shelton. The Pats just cut Wilfork and continue to bring in veterans like Tommy Kelly and Gerrard Warren to play in rotation with Wilfork. I'm saying not many NTs get drafted in the first round and those that do are obviously special. Can you truly say that about Shelton? Only one of the first rd guys I listed has not lived up to his draft status and thats Raji all the others are beasts imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scs787 Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 The Ravens drafted Timmy Jernigan last year and didn't they just trade Ngata so maybe they're eyeing Shelton. The Pats just cut Wilfork and continue to bring in veterans like Tommy Kelly and Gerrard Warren to play in rotation with Wilfork. I'm saying not many NTs get drafted in the first round and those that do are obviously special. Can you truly say that about Shelton? Only one of the first rd guys I listed has not lived up to his draft status and thats Raji all the others are beasts imo. I absolutely think he's special. I think the comparisons to Ngata are spot on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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