PFF Grades

[adam]

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2015/...negative-grade/

 

So PFF is taking a lot of heat for a crazy grade given to Rodgers for his game against KC.

 

Some hilarious tweets in regards to this: https://twitter.com/PFF/status/648856080945147904

 

 

[jason]

It's truth. Their ratings are hot garbage and I've been saying it for a while.

[AZ54]

As long as the Packers WRs are allowed to block DBs while the ball is in the air Rodgers should be graded lower. Watch their goal line plays and it's always a guy running behind the others while they step up and block. Creates a natural screen from the DB in man coverage but even if the other DBs see it and react off their man they are blocked while the ball is in the air. They got flagged for it once but should have been flagged a couple other times as well. I expect some savvy opponents will highlight this to the league before they play GB.

[scs787]

As long as the Packers WRs are allowed to block DBs while the ball is in the air Rodgers should be graded lower. Watch their goal line plays and it's always a guy running behind the others while they step up and block. Creates a natural screen from the DB in man coverage but even if the other DBs see it and react off their man they are blocked while the ball is in the air. They got flagged for it once but should have been flagged a couple other times as well. I expect some savvy opponents will highlight this to the league before they play GB.

 

Yeah, I didn't watch the whole game, but the highlights showed none of his 5 TDs are what I would call good throws by Rodgers. Most were on the plays you referred to, and another was on a free play where the defense pretty much gave up.

 

When you look at his "Football card stats" you think "wow, what a game" but the TDs I saw, I could complete all of those passes.....Like I said before, I didn't watch the whole game, but judging by the highlights I'm not surprised he was graded just average. He had a fumble and from what I've read there were 2 INTs dropped.

 

 

[Chitownhustla]

I love how the short out routes that got turned into TD's are not positive plays. I sure wish Cutler did more of this.

 

They have no clue if

 

Rodgers read the defense and checked to these out routes or called a hot route change

Rodgers called an audible, checking to a completely different play all together

 

which both of these changes creates the TD

 

 

or they dont take into consideration

 

if these simple quick out routes are not thrown perfectly or the timing isnt perfect the WR must likely wont score. one false step because the pass is late or off screws the whole play up

 

If these were simple easy plays in the NFL every team and or QB would be doing it every week.

 

 

 

[Bears4Ever_34]

I love how the short out routes that got turned into TD's are not positive plays. I sure wish Cutler did more of this.

 

They have no clue if

 

Rodgers read the defense and checked to these out routes or called a hot route change

Rodgers called an audible, checking to a completely different play all together

 

which both of these changes creates the TD

 

 

or they dont take into consideration

 

if these simple quick out routes are not thrown perfectly or the timing isnt perfect the WR must likely wont score. one false step because the pass is late or off screws the whole play up

 

If these were simple easy plays in the NFL every team and or QB would be doing it every week.

Well stated. How about just his ability to draw other teams offsides with his cadence? There is nobody better in the league at doing it, and Rodgers does it consistently almost every week. Those 1-3 extra plays every week start to add up. It almost always winds up being a completion or a PI flag. Last week, he threw a TD to James Jones using it, and the week before that he threw a TD against Richard Sherman. The guy is flat out amazing.

[AZ54]

I love how the short out routes that got turned into TD's are not positive plays. I sure wish Cutler did more of this.

 

They have no clue if

 

Rodgers read the defense and checked to these out routes or called a hot route change

Rodgers called an audible, checking to a completely different play all together

 

which both of these changes creates the TD

 

 

or they dont take into consideration

 

if these simple quick out routes are not thrown perfectly or the timing isnt perfect the WR must likely wont score. one false step because the pass is late or off screws the whole play up

 

If these were simple easy plays in the NFL every team and or QB would be doing it every week.

 

 

They are positive plays but they are also blocking while the ball is in the air. I'm not doubting his ability to throw accurately, nor his ability to read a defense. I'm just asking for defenders to get a fair chance to come off their coverage while the ball is in the air so they can attempt a tackle.

[Chitownhustla]

They are positive plays but they are also blocking while the ball is in the air. I'm not doubting his ability to throw accurately, nor his ability to read a defense. I'm just asking for defenders to get a fair chance to come off their coverage while the ball is in the air so they can attempt a tackle.

 

 

The pick play is used in college and pro's every week. Sometimes it gets called sometimes it doesn't.

 

 

Until the league and ref's want to stop it it will keep happening.

[AZ54]

The pick play is used in college and pro's every week. Sometimes it gets called sometimes it doesn't.

 

 

Until the league and ref's want to stop it it will keep happening.

 

 

Pick plays are a little different. WRs will run two route, one over and one underneath each other, with the intention of forcing one of the DBs to reroute or take a longer route to his man. That leaves one of the WRs open.

 

 

In Green Bay's play they line up two and sometimes three WRs on one side. Cobb steps back from his slot position and runs out wide behind the other WRs. The DB covering him has to run behind the other DBs to meet him at on the other side. Those WRs just step forward to the DB covering them and block. If they just stand there while the ball is in the air no issues. After it was run a couple times KCs DBs recognized it and were trying to get off the blocks before the ball was caught. It is well designed for a play that just needs to gain a couple yards and a TD, it just needs to be executed within the rules.

[jason]

Pick plays are a little different. WRs will run two route, one over and one underneath each other, with the intention of forcing one of the DBs to reroute or take a longer route to his man. That leaves one of the WRs open.

 

 

In Green Bay's play they line up two and sometimes three WRs on one side. Cobb steps back from his slot position and runs out wide behind the other WRs. The DB covering him has to run behind the other DBs to meet him at on the other side. Those WRs just step forward to the DB covering them and block. If they just stand there while the ball is in the air no issues. After it was run a couple times KCs DBs recognized it and were trying to get off the blocks before the ball was caught. It is well designed for a play that just needs to gain a couple yards and a TD, it just needs to be executed within the rules.

 

And if the ball is caught behind the line of scrimmage, those downfield blocks by WRs are legal. If the pass is caught beyond the LOS, that's when they'll call offensive pass interference.

[AZ54]

Are you sure about that because that would change everything on WR screens? We've had Jeffrey catch many passes behind the LOS and on some occasions we've been flagged for WRs blocking too early downfield. Not just us but I see it every now and then among any team running WR screens.

 

Is it behind the LOS for the pass, or is it if the pass is backwards in which case if it's dropped it's a fumble? Or is it that if the pass is behind the LOS players are allowed to block behind the LOS? Green Bay's WRs are clearly stepping up field to block.

 

http://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/2015-n...rd-pass,-fumble

 

Article 2a and 2e appear to say it is interference

Acts that are pass interference include, but are not limited to:

 

a) Contact by a player who is not playing the ball that restricts the opponent’s opportunity to make the catch.

Playing through the back of an opponent in an attempt to make a play on the ball.

c) Grabbing an opponent’s arm(s) in such a manner that restricts his opportunity to catch a pass.

d) Extending an arm across the body of an opponent, thus restricting his ability to catch a pass, and regardless of whether the player committing such act is playing the ball.

e) Cutting off the path of an opponent by making contact with him, without playing the ball.

 

Note 1: When the ball is in the air, eligible offensive and defensive receivers have the same right to the path of the ball and are subject to the same restrictions.

 

Article 4 says it is illegal too:

ARTICLE 4. OTHER PROHIBITED ACTS BY THE OFFENSE

Blocking more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage by an offensive player prior to a pass being thrown is offensive pass interference. See 8-3-1 for exception for an ineligible offensive player.

 

Note: It is also pass interference by the offense to block a defender beyond the line while the pass is in the air, if the block occurs in the vicinity of the player to whom the pass is thrown. See 8-3-1-Note for exception for ineligible players.

 

I don't know these rules all that well. Point me in the right direction for the downfield blocking that is allowed when a forward pass is behind the LOS.

[jason]

Are you sure about that because that would change everything on WR screens? We've had Jeffrey catch many passes behind the LOS and on some occasions we've been flagged for WRs blocking too early downfield. Not just us but I see it every now and then among any team running WR screens.

 

Is it behind the LOS for the pass, or is it if the pass is backwards in which case if it's dropped it's a fumble? Or is it that if the pass is behind the LOS players are allowed to block behind the LOS? Green Bay's WRs are clearly stepping up field to block.

 

http://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/2015-n...rd-pass,-fumble

 

Article 2a and 2e appear to say it is interference

Acts that are pass interference include, but are not limited to:

 

a) Contact by a player who is not playing the ball that restricts the opponent’s opportunity to make the catch.

Playing through the back of an opponent in an attempt to make a play on the ball.

c) Grabbing an opponent’s arm(s) in such a manner that restricts his opportunity to catch a pass.

d) Extending an arm across the body of an opponent, thus restricting his ability to catch a pass, and regardless of whether the player committing such act is playing the ball.

e) Cutting off the path of an opponent by making contact with him, without playing the ball.

 

Note 1: When the ball is in the air, eligible offensive and defensive receivers have the same right to the path of the ball and are subject to the same restrictions.

 

Article 4 says it is illegal too:

ARTICLE 4. OTHER PROHIBITED ACTS BY THE OFFENSE

Blocking more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage by an offensive player prior to a pass being thrown is offensive pass interference. See 8-3-1 for exception for an ineligible offensive player.

 

Note: It is also pass interference by the offense to block a defender beyond the line while the pass is in the air, if the block occurs in the vicinity of the player to whom the pass is thrown. See 8-3-1-Note for exception for ineligible players.

 

I don't know these rules all that well. Point me in the right direction for the downfield blocking that is allowed when a forward pass is behind the LOS.

 

 

You know, I'm not so sure now. I'd always seen the scrimmage play and how it functioned, and imagined the verbiage of the NFL rule book was very similar to the HS and NCAA rulebook.

 

HS - Rule 7-5-7 - Pass interference restrictions only apply beyonnd the neutral zone and only if the legal forward pass, untouched by B in or behind the neutral zone, crosses the neutral zone.

NCAA - Rule 7-3-8b - Offensive pass interference by a Team A player beyond the neutral zone during a legal forward pass play in which a forward pass crosses the neutral zone is contact that interferes with a Team B eligible player.

 

I can't find the exact type of verbiage in the NFL rule book. The closest I can find is a snippet of what you posted earlier:

 

ARTICLE 4. OTHER PROHIBITED ACTS BY THE OFFENSE

Blocking more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage by an offensive player prior to a pass being thrown is offensive pass interference. See 8-3-1 for exception for an ineligible offensive player.

 

Note: It is also pass interference by the offense to block a defender beyond the line while the pass is in the air, if the block occurs in the vicinity of the player to whom the pass is thrown. See 8-3-1-Note for exception for ineligible players.

 

I suppose they could ignore the OPI in the NFL, and it would compare to HS/NCAA rules, if they deemed either the blocks were =

[AZ54]

You know, I'm not so sure now. I'd always seen the scrimmage play and how it functioned, and imagined the verbiage of the NFL rule book was very similar to the HS and NCAA rulebook.

 

HS - Rule 7-5-7 - Pass interference restrictions only apply beyonnd the neutral zone and only if the legal forward pass, untouched by B in or behind the neutral zone, crosses the neutral zone.

NCAA - Rule 7-3-8b - Offensive pass interference by a Team A player beyond the neutral zone during a legal forward pass play in which a forward pass crosses the neutral zone is contact that interferes with a Team B eligible player.

 

I can't find the exact type of verbiage in the NFL rule book. The closest I can find is a snippet of what you posted earlier:

 

ARTICLE 4. OTHER PROHIBITED ACTS BY THE OFFENSE

Blocking more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage by an offensive player prior to a pass being thrown is offensive pass interference. See 8-3-1 for exception for an ineligible offensive player.

 

Note: It is also pass interference by the offense to block a defender beyond the line while the pass is in the air, if the block occurs in the vicinity of the player to whom the pass is thrown. See 8-3-1-Note for exception for ineligible players.

 

I suppose they could ignore the OPI in the NFL, and it would compare to HS/NCAA rules, if they deemed either the blocks were =

 

I caught a bit of NFL Network and they were talking about this and Mariucci said ....we've seen with the Bears and Packers. It is pass interference but the officials are letting them get away with it. I don't recall our play where we did the same thing but I had to watch the last game in a bar so the TV was a little bit away from my beer. On one goal line play of ours I remember seeing crossing routes in the end zone but the second receiver in that play was not blocking he ran his slant route to back corner and it picked off the other defender. That is legal as routes are allowed to cross paths.

[jason]

I caught a bit of NFL Network and they were talking about this and Mariucci said ....we've seen with the Bears and Packers. It is pass interference but the officials are letting them get away with it. I don't recall our play where we did the same thing but I had to watch the last game in a bar so the TV was a little bit away from my beer. On one goal line play of ours I remember seeing crossing routes in the end zone but the second receiver in that play was not blocking he ran his slant route to back corner and it picked off the other defender. That is legal as routes are allowed to cross paths.

 

From an official's perspective, the "pick route" is something that is purely subjective. If the official feels the WR who sets the pick is trying to set a pick instead of run a route, then OPI is going to get called. It is certainly illegal. But the WR has to really sell it.

 

Regarding the blocking downfield thing and the WR screen, I talked to an NFL official friend who basically said it's something they choose to pass on because it's "close enough" to being legal, and they likely aren't going to call the blocking downfield unless it's egregiously downfield (i.e. >3 yards) or if the pass is received really close to the line of scrimmage where the passes are being caught. I took that to mean that as long as the WR who catches the pass steps back far enough away from the blockers, they weren't going to call it. Oh well.

[AZ54]

From an official's perspective, the "pick route" is something that is purely subjective. If the official feels the WR who sets the pick is trying to set a pick instead of run a route, then OPI is going to get called. It is certainly illegal. But the WR has to really sell it.

 

Regarding the blocking downfield thing and the WR screen, I talked to an NFL official friend who basically said it's something they choose to pass on because it's "close enough" to being legal, and they likely aren't going to call the blocking downfield unless it's egregiously downfield (i.e. >3 yards) or if the pass is received really close to the line of scrimmage where the passes are being caught. I took that to mean that as long as the WR who catches the pass steps back far enough away from the blockers, they weren't going to call it. Oh well.

 

Our WR just ran his route to the corner but yes I know if you just go out and run into a CB to set a pick it can be called.

[adam]

It's truth. Their ratings are hot garbage and I've been saying it for a while.

Cutler got a grade of -1.7 for the STL game, lmao.

[DABEARSDABOMB]

Cutler got a grade of -1.7 for the STL game, lmao.

Presumably because our 3 TD's were on short passes that turned into gigantic runs. Shouldn't be a surprise given their measures (which are in a vacuum) and don't reflect checks by the QB and / or reflect the fact that we played a much different football game given the blowout score. I actually thought it was one of Jay's worse actual performances of the season, but statistically was one of his best. I think part of the "worse" has to do with the fact that we were playing conservative and with the lead and Jay had almost no time to throw. Overall though, the fact remains, he did exactly what you want with the big league and never made the big mistake and was smart to throw the ball away, etc. Plus, that TD pass to Miller (2nd) was pretty beautiful).

[jason]

PFF = Garbage

[DABEARSDABOMB]

Their take on the Bears RB's:

 

With Matt Forte out, neither Jeremy Langford (+1.8) nor Ka’Deem Carey (RB -0.7) did much as a runner versus the Rams; part of the problem was that the Rams’ defensive line gave the Bears’ running backs very little room to work with. Langford was able to escape on a couple of runs, however, these were few and far between. As a receiver out of the backfield, Langford was able to take a screen pass 83 yards for a touchdown.

 

Cutler helped, but I believe the Bears had 2nd most rushing yards of any team all season vs. the Rams.

 

Their take on Cutler:

Jay Cutler (-1.7) had his lowest grade of the season, but was very effective on passes under 10 yards, going 19-for-20 for 258 yards and all three TDs. However, most of these were passes short of the sticks that the receivers did all of the work. Zach Miller going 87 yards for a touchdown was more about the Rams’ defense than anything Cutler did; he threw a short speed out, and Miller made one cut and the Rams defense overran the pursuit angle. Cutler was unable to complete a pass over 10 yards, as 209 yards came after the catch.

 

Consistent with what I mentioned a post above. Punish the guy for playing within the system.

 

Fuller graded out higher then Porter and Fuller was the highest graded player for the Bears. Aaron Donald, Garret Reynolds and Nick Fairley all graded higher then any Bear yesterday. Fairly certain they don't watch football. Fuller tackled well and is making progress, but the Rams had a ton of drops that would have been catches. The secondaries best defense (outside of Porter) was the Rams & Fole (who couldn't catch or throw accurately). In terms of the Bears RBs, they do realize they pretty much rushed effectively even when it was completely obvious we were rushing.

[adam]

To me you can't grade without context. We were playing away, against arguably the best front-7 in football, and one of the best all-around defenses in football. Cutler took exactly what they gave him and exploited the weakness in their defense. Should he be penalized for his receivers making huge gains after the catch? No way. Also, how does Miller or Langford not score higher with their long plays alone. Those were huge game breaking plays against a defense that was one of the best against those very plays.

 

As Jason said, PFF is complete garbage, and I really can't take them serious anymore. Their grades are purely subjective and have no statistical support or foundation. For me, you could easily isolate each player on every play and give them either a +/- grade, then add them all up based on the situation with some weights and have a better rating system than they use.

 

Cutler had his worst game of the year according to PFF, and even though he wasn't slinging it deep to Alshon for 20-30 yard gains, I thought he was very efficient and played error free football. It might not have been his best passing game (due to Alshon being limited), but he did enough to give us a 37-13 win on the road. If that is a bad game, I hope he has more of those.

 

The other odd anomaly is most of the media, local and national praised Cutler and said this was potentially his best game. That is what I saw. He wasn't flashy, but he took advantage of what STL gave him and it worked flawlessly. If not for a Mariani fumble, it might've been an even bigger blowout.

[jason]

The problem with PFF is, and always has been, all about context. Their stats are box-score type data, where you try to assess data based on the numbers, and then add in some personal bias. Then do some pseudo math related to whatever "stat" being compiled, and bam, rating.

 

It's hot garbage. Any rating system that gives Webb multiple good games and gives a negative score to a QB who has absolutely lit it up is just a flawed system.

[scs787]

If they were box score type numbers then we wouldn't be talking about the bad ratings given to players who have good box score numbers. It's quite the opposite.

[jason]

If they were box score type numbers then we wouldn't be talking about the bad ratings given to players who have good box score numbers. It's quite the opposite.

 

Yeah, my comment was misleading. I meant that they are as incomplete as box score numbers. They don't tell the whole picture. PFF just adds in some BS and bias to make it seem like their stats are legit.