Cohesion from College to Pro

[jason]

I've been thinking about the concept of cohesion via draft lately. With this draft, there are several scenarios where players could be drafted to create immediate cohesion, assuming that type of bond carries over to the pros. Do you believe it works? Or does the NFL speed/ability difference make the cohesion of rookie opponents negligible?

 

For instance, if the Bears were to draft:

RD2: Sidney Jones, CB, Wash

RD3: Budda Baker, S, Wash

RD4: Kevin King, CB, Wash

 

or

RD1: Mitch Trubisky, QB, UNC

RD4: Ryan Switzer, WR, UNC

 

or

RD1: Jonathan Allen, DE, Bama

RD3: Tim Williams, OLB, Bama

RD4: Eddie Jackson, S, Bama

RD5: Dalvin Tomlinson, DE/NT, Bama

 

or

RD1: Jamal Adams, S, LSU

RD2: Tre’Daviorous White, CB, LSU

 

or

RD2: Damor’ea Stringfellow, WR, Ole Miss

RD3: Evan Engram, TE, Ole Miss

RD5: Chad Kelly, QB, Ole Miss

 

Would that expedite the cohesion process among teammates? Would you be happy with groupings from teams like portions/all of the above? I think I'd be pretty happy with various combinations from above. I think I could get behind just about all of the above, provided the missing picks filled other needs.

[Mongo3451]

I've been thinking about the concept of cohesion via draft lately. With this draft, there are several scenarios where players could be drafted to create immediate cohesion, assuming that type of bond carries over to the pros. Do you believe it works? Or does the NFL speed/ability difference make the cohesion of rookie opponents negligible?

 

For instance, if the Bears were to draft:

RD2: Sidney Jones, CB, Wash

RD3: Budda Baker, S, Wash

RD4: Kevin King, CB, Wash

 

or

RD1: Mitch Trubisky, QB, UNC

RD4: Ryan Switzer, WR, UNC

 

or

RD1: Jonathan Allen, DE, Bama

RD3: Tim Williams, OLB, Bama

RD4: Eddie Jackson, S, Bama

RD5: Dalvin Tomlinson, DE/NT, Bama

 

or

RD1: Jamal Adams, S, LSU

RD2: Tre'Daviorous White, CB, LSU

 

or

RD2: Damor'ea Stringfellow, WR, Ole Miss

RD3: Evan Engram, TE, Ole Miss

RD5: Chad Kelly, QB, Ole Miss

 

Would that expedite the cohesion process among teammates? Would you be happy with groupings from teams like portions/all of the above? I think I'd be pretty happy with various combinations from above. I think I could get behind just about all of the above, provided the missing picks filled other needs.

 

With the list you provided, I think the DB's would definately benefit. Not so sure with Switzer and Trubisky. Switzer will be running a completely different set of routes in the NFL. A better comparison would be with Watson and Williams, as Williams would run similar routes into single coverage.

[AZ54]

I've been thinking about the concept of cohesion via draft lately. With this draft, there are several scenarios where players could be drafted to create immediate cohesion, assuming that type of bond carries over to the pros. Do you believe it works? Or does the NFL speed/ability difference make the cohesion of rookie opponents negligible?

 

For instance, if the Bears were to draft:

RD2: Sidney Jones, CB, Wash

RD3: Budda Baker, S, Wash

RD4: Kevin King, CB, Wash

 

or

RD1: Mitch Trubisky, QB, UNC

RD4: Ryan Switzer, WR, UNC

 

or

RD1: Jonathan Allen, DE, Bama

RD3: Tim Williams, OLB, Bama

RD4: Eddie Jackson, S, Bama

RD5: Dalvin Tomlinson, DE/NT, Bama

 

or

RD1: Jamal Adams, S, LSU

RD2: Tre’Daviorous White, CB, LSU

 

or

RD2: Damor’ea Stringfellow, WR, Ole Miss

RD3: Evan Engram, TE, Ole Miss

RD5: Chad Kelly, QB, Ole Miss

 

Would that expedite the cohesion process among teammates? Would you be happy with groupings from teams like portions/all of the above? I think I'd be pretty happy with various combinations from above. I think I could get behind just about all of the above, provided the missing picks filled other needs.

 

If they get along off the field yes. Not saying they have to be friends but there has to be some type of relationship there to have any benefit. If one is a prima donna WR ala Brandon Marshall then it might not be a good situation and maybe the QB was hoping to get away from dealing with that idiot. Plus college is where athleticism can often keep you in the play regardless of assignment discipline or technique so players with high level of talent don't always arrive with the work ethic to succeed in the NFL. That could upset a relationship if one doesn't want to put in the work alongside the other.

 

If Chad Kelly, who has off the field issues, thinks he can just come in with his boys and it will all be easy he'd be dead wrong. For some reason writing that just gave me a bad Cade McNown flashback.

[Stinger226]

I've been thinking about the concept of cohesion via draft lately. With this draft, there are several scenarios where players could be drafted to create immediate cohesion, assuming that type of bond carries over to the pros. Do you believe it works? Or does the NFL speed/ability difference make the cohesion of rookie opponents negligible?

 

For instance, if the Bears were to draft:

RD2: Sidney Jones, CB, Wash

RD3: Budda Baker, S, Wash

RD4: Kevin King, CB, Wash

 

or

RD1: Mitch Trubisky, QB, UNC

RD4: Ryan Switzer, WR, UNC

 

or

RD1: Jonathan Allen, DE, Bama

RD3: Tim Williams, OLB, Bama

RD4: Eddie Jackson, S, Bama

RD5: Dalvin Tomlinson, DE/NT, Bama

 

or

RD1: Jamal Adams, S, LSU

RD2: Tre’Daviorous White, CB, LSU

 

or

RD2: Damor’ea Stringfellow, WR, Ole Miss

RD3: Evan Engram, TE, Ole Miss

RD5: Chad Kelly, QB, Ole Miss

 

Would that expedite the cohesion process among teammates? Would you be happy with groupings from teams like portions/all of the above? I think I'd be pretty happy with various combinations from above. I think I could get behind just about all of the above, provided the missing picks filled other needs.

I think working with someone you know would make the transition easier but I think each individual is different. What if Allen and Jackson played together but didnt like each other? I think you just draft the BPA that hopefully is at a need position and let the people drafting them decide who excels quicker. I think Bullard will end up being a good player but in his first year, he didnt fare well. Everybody matures at a different level and some never at all.

[DABEARSDABOMB]

I've been thinking about the concept of cohesion via draft lately. With this draft, there are several scenarios where players could be drafted to create immediate cohesion, assuming that type of bond carries over to the pros. Do you believe it works? Or does the NFL speed/ability difference make the cohesion of rookie opponents negligible?

 

For instance, if the Bears were to draft:

RD2: Sidney Jones, CB, Wash

RD3: Budda Baker, S, Wash

RD4: Kevin King, CB, Wash

 

or

RD1: Mitch Trubisky, QB, UNC

RD4: Ryan Switzer, WR, UNC

 

or

RD1: Jonathan Allen, DE, Bama

RD3: Tim Williams, OLB, Bama

RD4: Eddie Jackson, S, Bama

RD5: Dalvin Tomlinson, DE/NT, Bama

 

or

RD1: Jamal Adams, S, LSU

RD2: Tre’Daviorous White, CB, LSU

 

or

RD2: Damor’ea Stringfellow, WR, Ole Miss

RD3: Evan Engram, TE, Ole Miss

RD5: Chad Kelly, QB, Ole Miss

 

Would that expedite the cohesion process among teammates? Would you be happy with groupings from teams like portions/all of the above? I think I'd be pretty happy with various combinations from above. I think I could get behind just about all of the above, provided the missing picks filled other needs.

I'm not interested in the ole miss combo, but I always think of Andrew Luck and the Colts who then drafted Luck's TE, who was okay, but never near as good or as much cohesion as I think everyone expected. That at least seemed like one of the more high profile QB / player tandems going to the same team. I figure the schemes are so different that any benefits from being on the same team previously are negated. I do like the idea of really investing in our secondary. Hell, I'd be okay drafting a safety in 1/2 and signing Eric Berry, mainly because I'm so sick of our lack of turnovers and just our pathetic secondary, especially safety play.

 

[ASHKUM BEAR]

Deshaun Watson QB RD1

Cordea Tankersly CB RD2

Jordan Leggett TE RD3

Artavis Scott WR RD5

Ben Bouware LB RD7

 

Clemson works too.

[jason]

Deshaun Watson QB RD1

Cordea Tankersly CB RD2

Jordan Leggett TE RD3

Artavis Scott WR RD5

Ben Bouware LB RD7

 

Clemson works too.

 

For a total team draft, I agree. But the only cohesion possibility is Watson, Leggett, Scott. In fact, I'm completely sold on the fact that if the Bears get Watson in RD1, they should grab Leggett in RD3.

 

With the list you provided, I think the DB's would definately benefit. Not so sure with Switzer and Trubisky. Switzer will be running a completely different set of routes in the NFL. A better comparison would be with Watson and Williams, as Williams would run similar routes into single coverage.

 

I'm also sold on Trubisky + Switzer. I've been a fan of Switzer for 2+ years now. He's going to be a very good NFL slot WR. If the Bears get Trub, I want Switzer in RD4-5

[lemonej]

I've been thinking about the concept of cohesion via draft lately. With this draft, there are several scenarios where players could be drafted to create immediate cohesion, assuming that type of bond carries over to the pros. Do you believe it works? Or does the NFL speed/ability difference make the cohesion of rookie opponents negligible?

 

For instance, if the Bears were to draft:

RD2: Sidney Jones, CB, Wash

RD3: Budda Baker, S, Wash

RD4: Kevin King, CB, Wash

 

or

RD1: Mitch Trubisky, QB, UNC

RD4: Ryan Switzer, WR, UNC

 

or

RD1: Jonathan Allen, DE, Bama

RD3: Tim Williams, OLB, Bama

RD4: Eddie Jackson, S, Bama

RD5: Dalvin Tomlinson, DE/NT, Bama

 

or

RD1: Jamal Adams, S, LSU

RD2: Tre'Daviorous White, CB, LSU

 

or

RD2: Damor'ea Stringfellow, WR, Ole Miss

RD3: Evan Engram, TE, Ole Miss

RD5: Chad Kelly, QB, Ole Miss

 

Would that expedite the cohesion process among teammates? Would you be happy with groupings from teams like portions/all of the above? I think I'd be pretty happy with various combinations from above. I think I could get behind just about all of the above, provided the missing picks filled other needs.

 

The QB/ WR or TE didn't work with Luck and Fleener off the top of my head.

[killakrzydav]

I whole heartedly believe it makes a difference

[Alaskan Grizzly]

Deshaun Watson QB RD1

Cordea Tankersly CB RD2

Jordan Leggett TE RD3

Artavis Scott WR RD5

Ben Bouware LB RD7

 

Clemson works too.

This I like.

 

Hey Jason, didn't Cutler, Chris Williams and Earl Bennett all play at Vanderbilt together? I'd say Bennett played good while linked to Jay in Chicago whereas former 1st round pick Williams...did not.

[ASHKUM BEAR]

For a total team draft, I agree. But the only cohesion possibility is Watson, Leggett, Scott. In fact, I'm completely sold on the fact that if the Bears get Watson in RD1, they should grab Leggett in RD3.

 

 

 

I'm also sold on Trubisky + Switzer. I've been a fan of Switzer for 2+ years now. He's going to be a very good NFL slot WR. If the Bears get Trub, I want Switzer in RD4-5

I like both of the combinations. Kizer on the other hand didn't have established WRs or a TE like these guys had to work with. In a way, it makes me wonder how much better Kizer would have been if Fuller stuck around one more year or even Poisse the RB.

[jason]

This I like.

 

Hey Jason, didn't Cutler, Chris Williams and Earl Bennett all play at Vanderbilt together? I'd say Bennett played good while linked to Jay in Chicago whereas former 1st round pick Williams...did not.

 

They only had one year of overlap. Bennett did well with Cutler. And Chris Williams got screwed in Chicago. Please don't make me prove it for what seems like the 10th time on this board.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

They only had one year of overlap. Bennett did well with Cutler. And Chris Williams got screwed in Chicago. Please don't make me prove it for what seems like the 10th time on this board.

 

I wont and you haven't ?. I've been up to my ears in political debate lately. Don't have the energy.

 

Nevertheless, I'd still like that OT from Bama and their TE (Howard?). Beyond that not many other Bama players appeal to me. Not at least in positions of need. Clemson on the other hand, they got a few.

[jason]

I wont and you haven't ?. I've been up to my ears in political debate lately. Don't have the energy.

 

Nevertheless, I'd still like that OT from Bama and their TE (Howard?). Beyond that not many other Bama players appeal to me. Not at least in positions of need. Clemson on the other hand, they got a few.

 

Oh, make no mistake, I've proven it. Go back, look through the archives. He got jerked around something serious by the Bears coaches during his time in Chicago.

[Mongo3451]

Oh, make no mistake, I've proven it. Go back, look through the archives. He got jerked around something serious by the Bears coaches during his time in Chicago.

He got screwed. I remember. Up until the point I felt he gave up.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

Oh, make no mistake, I've proven it. Go back, look through the archives. He got jerked around something serious by the Bears coaches during his time in Chicago.

 

I know I'm going to regret this and really shouldn't but...

 

So this moving around thing, aka "jerked around" would be different than say Kyle Long (a two time ProBowler as OG) playing Tackle? Or a Cody Whitehair who until last year never played Center?

 

And in the end, Williams ended up starting (for another team) as OG. So... there is that.

 

 

 

 

[jason]

I know I'm going to regret this and really shouldn't but...

 

So this moving around thing, aka "jerked around" would be different than say Kyle Long (a two time ProBowler as OG) playing Tackle? Or a Cody Whitehair who until last year never played Center?

 

And in the end, Williams ended up starting (for another team) as OG. So... there is that.

 

Short memory my friend.

 

Kyle Long was moved to a more difficult position because the team saw how he absolutely dominated at OG. They thought, "Let's see how damn good he really is."

Cody Whitehair was moved to C because Grasu got injured and the Bears just picked up this fancy new rookie who projected well at all interior OL positions, and even mentioned it in interviews. Whitehair literally said he could/would play C.

 

As for Williams...

Short version:

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/2010092...orts/309299883/

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-08...imi-camp-battle

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-08...t-soldier-field

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-08...-webb-mike-tice

 

 

2008 - Started out injured, never started as a result.

2009 - Moved to RT to accomodate Pace, when Pace sucked Williams got moved into LT, where he did OK.

2010 - Started at LT, injured hammy, Tice inexplicably moved him to LG after injury. Tice chooses Omifail at LT and Jamarcus freaking Webb at RT (because he chipped Tice's tooth on a blocking sled).

2011 - Starts at LG while Webb gets gifted the LT spot, which is crazy because Carimi was drafted as a RT because Webb sucked so bad at RT. Yeah, because LT is so much easier. Carimi to IR. Bears try out a collection of bums for various OL positions. Cutler is on roller skates nearly the entire season. Going into the 2012 season, just about everyone agrees that Webb sucked/sucks, and shouldn't be the guy going forward.

2012 - Williams moved among three positions, not given direction by Tice, straight up misled by Tice, legitimately does better than Webb in the preseason, and never gets a fair shake because the OL sucks so bad otherwise that his versatility could be used as a bandaid in multiple locations. Meanwhile, oh, big surprise, Webb's still horrible. So bad in fact, the Bears have to triple team Jared Allen (remember that embarrassment?) Cutler publicly yells at him and bumps him on the sideline (remember that ridiculousness?).

[DABEARSDABOMB]

What is interesting is how many more games Webb played in after he left the Bears. In fact, if it weren't for injuries, he would have been one of the Seahawks starters (not that they have a great line). My personal view is between Williams & Carimi, the Bears whiffed horrifically on the olinemen they took early as they both sucked. Colombo at least had a pretty good career once he got healthy with Dallas. But man, all three of the Bears 1st round olineman had all kinds of injuries and failed miserably with the franchise until we selected Kyle Long. I legitimately think our franchise history would look quite a bit different had we not utterly failed on those picks (of course you could say that about a lot of franchises), but if we had hit on those olineman, I think we'd be saying something different about Cutler. Of course had Williams been a hit, Carimi probably isn't drafted anyway.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

Short memory my friend.

 

Kyle Long was moved to a more difficult position because the team saw how he absolutely dominated at OG. They thought, "Let's see how damn good he really is."

Cody Whitehair was moved to C because Grasu got injured and the Bears just picked up this fancy new rookie who projected well at all interior OL positions, and even mentioned it in interviews. Whitehair literally said he could/would play C.

 

As for Williams...

Short version:

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/2010092...orts/309299883/

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-08...imi-camp-battle

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-08...t-soldier-field

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-08...-webb-mike-tice

 

 

2008 - Started out injured, never started as a result.

2009 - Moved to RT to accomodate Pace, when Pace sucked Williams got moved into LT, where he did OK.

2010 - Started at LT, injured hammy, Tice inexplicably moved him to LG after injury. Tice chooses Omifail at LT and Jamarcus freaking Webb at RT (because he chipped Tice's tooth on a blocking sled).

2011 - Starts at LG while Webb gets gifted the LT spot, which is crazy because Carimi was drafted as a RT because Webb sucked so bad at RT. Yeah, because LT is so much easier. Carimi to IR. Bears try out a collection of bums for various OL positions. Cutler is on roller skates nearly the entire season. Going into the 2012 season, just about everyone agrees that Webb sucked/sucks, and shouldn't be the guy going forward.

2012 - Williams moved among three positions, not given direction by Tice, straight up misled by Tice, legitimately does better than Webb in the preseason, and never gets a fair shake because the OL sucks so bad otherwise that his versatility could be used as a bandaid in multiple locations. Meanwhile, oh, big surprise, Webb's still horrible. So bad in fact, the Bears have to triple team Jared Allen (remember that embarrassment?) Cutler publicly yells at him and bumps him on the sideline (remember that ridiculousness?).

 

I really shouldn't have 'gone there' and perhaps this is a topic deserving of its own thread. At any rate...

 

Until last year Webb was playing for Seattle and the year before that, Williams was still playing as a Guard for STL/LA. So it would seem that Tice wasn't alone in analyzing the skills of these guys and their positions.

 

The point I was trying to make with Long and Whitehair was just that; sometimes you have to move people based on need or simply they're no good where they are projected to be. I think somewhere deep in the discourse we agree to that basic thought.

 

DBDB highlights a very frustrating point about 'the experts' and their analysis of where they think players will succeed in the NFL. In the case of Carimi and Williams; both were projected as 1st round talent and the Bears bit both times. Similar to Colombo. Can't fault the Bears too much for doing what you want and getting what they thought was supposed to be the talent they wanted for OL protection and it didn't work out. Same with Pace. He was a pro-bowl player for most of his career. Sitton would be this generation's example. He was out a fair amount this last year but was/is he worth the money the team paid for him? Still remains to be seen I suppose. There could be arguments (I know we've had them) all day long about when and where to draft an OLineman versus picking one up in FA. In all the situations there's always that possibility of 'getting it wrong'.

 

Does it seem fair that our team drafts two projected 1st round starters who don't live up to the hype, where a team like Cleveland drafts Joe Thomas who lives up to the hype, yet has to play for Cleveland?

[ASHKUM BEAR]

I know I'm going to regret this and really shouldn't but...

 

So this moving around thing, aka "jerked around" would be different than say Kyle Long (a two time ProBowler as OG) playing Tackle? Or a Cody Whitehair who until last year never played Center?

 

And in the end, Williams ended up starting (for another team) as OG. So... there is that.

Oh man, look what you started....and to think if they took Brandon Albert instead, who myself and many insisted, who started LT many years for KC. That was the first downfall, then Carimi but hard to say because of his injury. Then, instead of McNugget, the could have taken G David Decastro. Couple of whiffs.

[Stinger226]

I really shouldn't have 'gone there' and perhaps this is a topic deserving of its own thread. At any rate...

 

Until last year Webb was playing for Seattle and the year before that, Williams was still playing as a Guard for STL/LA. So it would seem that Tice wasn't alone in analyzing the skills of these guys and their positions.

 

The point I was trying to make with Long and Whitehair was just that; sometimes you have to move people based on need or simply they're no good where they are projected to be. I think somewhere deep in the discourse we agree to that basic thought.

 

DBDB highlights a very frustrating point about 'the experts' and their analysis of where they think players will succeed in the NFL. In the case of Carimi and Williams; both were projected as 1st round talent and the Bears bit both times. Similar to Colombo. Can't fault the Bears too much for doing what you want and getting what they thought was supposed to be the talent they wanted for OL protection and it didn't work out. Same with Pace. He was a pro-bowl player for most of his career. Sitton would be this generation's example. He was out a fair amount this last year but was/is he worth the money the team paid for him? Still remains to be seen I suppose. There could be arguments (I know we've had them) all day long about when and where to draft an OLineman versus picking one up in FA. In all the situations there's always that possibility of 'getting it wrong'.

 

Does it seem fair that our team drafts two projected 1st round starters who don't live up to the hype, where a team like Cleveland drafts Joe Thomas who lives up to the hype, yet has to play for Cleveland?

Its about picking the right players. First round picks miss half the time. Its a flawed system. the good team have a high percentage of hitting on high picks, we on the other hand , fail because we have been a shitty team for 20 years now.

[jason]

What is interesting is how many more games Webb played in after he left the Bears. In fact, if it weren't for injuries, he would have been one of the Seahawks starters (not that they have a great line). My personal view is between Williams & Carimi, the Bears whiffed horrifically on the olinemen they took early as they both sucked. Colombo at least had a pretty good career once he got healthy with Dallas. But man, all three of the Bears 1st round olineman had all kinds of injuries and failed miserably with the franchise until we selected Kyle Long. I legitimately think our franchise history would look quite a bit different had we not utterly failed on those picks (of course you could say that about a lot of franchises), but if we had hit on those olineman, I think we'd be saying something different about Cutler. Of course had Williams been a hit, Carimi probably isn't drafted anyway.

 

10000% agree. Not only did it set the franchise back in terms of wasted picks, it ruined a potential franchise QB to the point that all potential contact terrified him enough he absolutely dismissed mechanics.