Super Bowl Open Thread

[Alaskan Grizzly]

Sorry, no one is GOAT. It's greatest per era. In in that, Brady is the greatest of this era. Montana the last. Etc. The game is too different era to era as in every sport. It's a fault of media and people in general to have short term memories.

 

I'm partial to Sid Luckman in the '40s.

[jason]

The calls were pretty justified, if you were talking about the holding calls, those were easy calls. I actually thought Atlanta got away with a few late hits on Edelman out of bounds that weren't called.

 

Agreed.

 

Once the WR establishes himself as a WR going out for a pass, and not a WR blocking for a run, it's a pretty easy thing for a deep official to see. When that WR can't disengage for some reason, or when he gets his route altered, it's a defensive holding most of the time. And in the NFL, that's a foul that gets extra attention because of the rules that determine where and for how long a DB can contact a WR.

[jason]

Thoughts on MJ being the GOAT of basketball?

 

The game is very different era to era. Its one of the reasons even before this SB victory that I thought Brady was the best Qb of all time. What he has done without a Jerry Rice type WR is amazing(he did have Randy Moss for a couple of seasons but if I remember correctly it was 2 seasons). He has never had a Terry Bradshaw Steeler defense or Lyn Swan WR or Franco Harris RB. He has had good talent around him but no Hall of Famer counterparts, Gronk will be a hall of famer but other then that maybe Weds Welker (not sure tho). He has always had guys around him that he makes look really good.

 

Ohhh. We probably shouldn't even get this one started, but there is no doubt whatsoever MJ is the GOAT. Older eras had atrocious defense and less athleticism. More recent eras have altered the game in such a way that the physical nature of the sport is gone, and players get way more foul calls. MJ would likely average 50 in today's NBA, because nobody would be able to stop him from going to the rack without fouling him. That old hand-check rule had a big effect.

 

As for Brady, yeah, he's the GOAT. Every year he takes a scrub and turns him into a fantasy sleeper the next year.

[Lucky Luciano]

The calls were pretty justified, if you were talking about the holding calls, those were easy calls. I actually thought Atlanta got away with a few late hits on Edelman out of bounds that weren't called.

 

the drive where the pats made their first TD... there were two instances where the drive stalled and they should have had to punt. it was third down and 9 or 10? in each instance. brady throws incomplete passes and then comes the flags.

 

on the replay you are correct in a sense. there was MINOR holding but it should NOT have been called in reference to the rest of the officiating going on. one flag if you wanted to be VERY nit picky. two flags and it was a give-me drive by the officials that turns out to have been the difference in the game.

 

this seems the MO of officiating in the nfl. give early questionable calls and makeup calls later in the game to the other team to 'appear' unbiased. it seems like no big deal at the time but in reality it IS a big deal. it gives the team they choose to favor riding time and momentum.

 

[Lucky Luciano]

He also didn't get punished the way QB's in Montana's day did. Also, the WR's run free...whereas there was far more contact, etc back in the day. I am not downplaying Brady's greatness in the modern era. I simply think it's not logical to say one one player from one era is the greatest of all time. By the way, he's had amazing defenses. He's had some damn good receivers. Edelman is no slouch. He's also had incredible and consistent coaching. And incredible and consistent luck...from the tuck rule to the Edelman grab last night. All that said, again...great. Just not fair to say of all time.

 

you are correct. the era's are apple and orange comparisons. the nfl changed all the rules to the game in favor of the offense especially the passing game.

 

where the tackles can line up. the holding on nearly every play is evident compared to the past. in the past there would be holding calls on nearly all the linemen on every single play. in the past you could not grab the jersey and hold on. as soon as your arms came out to wrap a player it would have been a flag.

[jason]

the drive where the pats made their first TD... there were two instances where the drive stalled and they should have had to punt. it was third down and 9 or 10? in each instance. brady throws incomplete passes and then comes the flags.

 

on the replay you are correct in a sense. there was MINOR holding but it should NOT have been called in reference to the rest of the officiating going on. one flag if you wanted to be VERY nit picky. two flags and it was a give-me drive by the officials that turns out to have been the difference in the game.

 

this seems the MO of officiating in the nfl. give early questionable calls and makeup calls later in the game to the other team to 'appear' unbiased. it seems like no big deal at the time but in reality it IS a big deal. it gives the team they choose to favor riding time and momentum.

 

With all due respect, you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. Trust me on this. That's not how it happens, not how it works, not how those officials are graded, and not how they remain NFL officials. If they did it all willy-nilly like you propose, they'd quickly be run out of the NFL.

 

In regards to those passes, the general philosophy for the deep officials is to look for advantage gained. If those WRs are getting held, and the play is a run, they will not throw the flag 99.9% of the time. So there is a little bit of a process there. They see the hold, then check to see if the foul had any impact on the play. Sometimes the foul is obvious and they call it regardless of whether or not the play is affected (edit: because they don't know where the QB is throwing on a pass play). As soon as the pass is thrown, particularly if it causes the QB to throw the ball away after looking at his target, they'll throw the flag. In some instances, they throw a flag earlier than that because of the NFL rules on when and where a WR can be "chucked" (i.e. illegal contact).

 

I know everyone wants some sort of 100% robotic response from officials when a foul occurs, but the game isn't that way, never was that way, and never can be that way.

[jason]

Here's the first hold:

 

The defender grabs Edelman's arm with both hands. On the EZ view it's pretty obvious the official is going to throw the flag (5:48) before the pass is even thrown.

 

Here's the second hold:

 

The defender reaches out with both arms, and using his left hand, grabs the inside of Amendola's shoulder. It obviously slows and impacts his route, unless of course Amendola makes a habit of running straight forward while his head and shoulders are turned almost 90 degrees to the sideline. BTW - This could also have been called illegal contact.

 

Here's the third hold:

 

This one is not even worth debating. He literally grabs the back of Mitchell's jersey and hangs on for 5+ yards.

[jason]

the drive where the pats made their first TD... there were two instances where the drive stalled and they should have had to punt. it was third down and 9 or 10? in each instance. brady throws incomplete passes and then comes the flags.

on the replay you are correct in a sense. there was MINOR holding but it should NOT have been called in reference to the rest of the officiating going on. one flag if you wanted to be VERY nit picky. two flags and it was a give-me drive by the officials that turns out to have been the difference in the game.

 

this seems the MO of officiating in the nfl. give early questionable calls and makeup calls later in the game to the other team to 'appear' unbiased. it seems like no big deal at the time but in reality it IS a big deal. it gives the team they choose to favor riding time and momentum.

 

 

BTW - You're misremembering the sequence of events. The drive where the Patriots got all three defensive holding calls in their favor?

 

Brady threw the pick-6.

[Lucky Luciano]

Here's the first hold:

 

The defender grabs Edelman's arm with both hands. On the EZ view it's pretty obvious the official is going to throw the flag (5:48) before the pass is even thrown.

 

Here's the second hold:

 

The defender reaches out with both arms, and using his left hand, grabs the inside of Amendola's shoulder. It obviously slows and impacts his route, unless of course Amendola makes a habit of running straight forward while his head and shoulders are turned almost 90 degrees to the sideline. BTW - This could also have been called illegal contact.

 

Here's the third hold:

 

This one is not even worth debating. He literally grabs the back of Mitchell's jersey and hangs on for 5+ yards.

 

as i stated, these calls were nit picky calls that happen all the time during games that are not called. that said, the one ball was uncatchable the second also.

 

if this were the bears offense there would not have been any flags and especially on the 2nd call. it was brady obviously dumping the ball off YARDS short to avoid a sack not even close to any receiver.

 

[Lucky Luciano]

BTW - You're misremembering the sequence of events. The drive where the Patriots got all three defensive holding calls in their favor?

 

Brady threw the pick-6.

quite possible. it may have turned out to be the field goal. i don't remember and don't have it taped to review.

 

[madlithuanian]

I wasn't exactly saying that. But they've had top 5 NFL D's during their numerous SB runs...

 

I've never heard of any of the Pats D compared to the Steel Curtain,

 

[madlithuanian]

Thanks for providing that info!

 

Interestingly enough, if you compare their defensive pts against rank for their Super Bowl wins, it amazingly close:

 

NE 5 wins: 1st, 8th, 2nd, 1st, 6th

PIT 4 wins: 5th, 1st, 2nd, 2nd

 

So NE actually won 2 years when they had the #1 scoring defense, and Pittsburgh only did it once, and Pittsburgh had a top 5 offense every year they won.

 

[madlithuanian]

agreed

 

And my dad, would tell me how the game in the 70's and 80's when I was a kid was a lot different from the 50's-60's... It's ever changing..

 

you are correct. the era's are apple and orange comparisons. the nfl changed all the rules to the game in favor of the offense especially the passing game.

 

where the tackles can line up. the holding on nearly every play is evident compared to the past. in the past there would be holding calls on nearly all the linemen on every single play. in the past you could not grab the jersey and hold on. as soon as your arms came out to wrap a player it would have been a flag.

 

[madlithuanian]

 

 

 

I'm partial to Sid Luckman in the '40s.

 

[ChileBear]

The NFL has tons of QBs that have been at the peak. Brady the best? Hey, that's not gonna be the first question I put to Gabriel (or, more likely, the other guy). For me it's Montana and then Young. I grew up with Unitas, Tarkinton and YATitle.

Roger Stauback, Dan Marino, they were all tops. AND I DON"T LIKE the prima donna Brady, so screw him.

 

 

[madlithuanian]

Ha!

 

No Elway love? Better running game finally got him in the win...

 

The NFL has tons of QBs that have been at the peak. Brady the best? Hey, that's not gonna be the first question I put to Gabriel (or, more likely, the other guy). For me it's Montana and then Young. I grew up with Unitas, Tarkinton and YATitle.

Roger Stauback, Dan Marino, they were all tops. AND I DON"T LIKE the prima donna Brady, so screw him.

 

[BearFan2000]

I don't think the officiating had a bearing on the outcome. We can micro analyze every play and find missed calls both ways. What did have an impact is Atlanta not making halftime adjustments and the Patriots made adjustments. I feel like Atlanta got complacent up 28-3 and let off the gas, NE took advantage and went to work. Lack of super bowl experience played a part in it. I remember thinking when Atlanta built that lead and they were celebrating on the sidelines that they need to keep working cause there is a lot of football left to play. You can't let your guard down or take your foot off the gas against a team like the Patriots. Once you lose momentum it's very difficult to recapture it. What ultimately killed the Falcons was the drive where they were in field goal range up by 8 with a chance to extend it back to a two score game. Ryan took a sack because he held the ball too long, then a holding penalty put them out of FG range and rather than a lead extending FG attempt or a TD, they punt and the rest is history.

 

It sucks because I was rooting hard for the Falcons because I'm sick of the Patriots for a number of reasons. But they played a whale of a second half to come back and win and you have to give them props for that. The SB was there for the taking for the Falcons and they failed to realize it's a 60 minute game not a 30.