Is a franchise QB really needed?

[ASHKUM BEAR]

Anyone think we may move on from Fox after this year and try to lure in Harbaugh? Re-unite him and Fangio, that would make things more exciting. Trubisky might fit Harbaugh's read option well as I believe NC played that style. We got our QB, having a functioning offense might become a plus for once.

[madlithuanian]

Why not

 

Anyone think we may move on from Fox after this year and try to lure in Harbaugh? Re-unite him and Fangio, that would make things more exciting. Trubisky might fit Harbaugh's read option well as I believe NC played that style. We got our QB, having a functioning offense might become a plus for once.

 

[ASHKUM BEAR]

Why not

I read a whole blog on this and it made sense. To be good or great, you need a long term plan. Same coaches and system will give the team so much flexibility and stability. Keep changing and expect 2-4 years to transition. Fox is alright, but not a 10 year run guy. Wish they would have promoted Gase or hired him before Fox came to the picture.

[AZ54]

Anyone think we may move on from Fox after this year and try to lure in Harbaugh? Re-unite him and Fangio, that would make things more exciting. Trubisky might fit Harbaugh's read option well as I believe NC played that style. We got our QB, having a functioning offense might become a plus for once.

 

That would be awful. Harbaugh has become an arrogant selfish individual and I want nothing to do with him. I was the first one on this board to talk about the Bears grabbing him to become the HC way back when he was in his 2nd and 3rd years at Stanford. He knows football but his act wears thin quickly.

 

I keep seeing the same things about Fox being a bad HC then in the next sentence people praise his former OCs (Gase, McCoy) and both were his promotions into the OC role, or praise the elite Defense he built in Denver. On the other hand they'll ignore that he ran the best offense in the NFL for a couple years with Peyton, or praise his current DC Fangio (I'm on board). Harbaugh gets praise for the D he built with Fangio but Fox can't get credit if he does the same here? At some point people gotta look back and say he has a really good record building coaching staffs and a winning program. We'll get to see how successful the 49ers are with Matt Barkley and Brian Hoyer as their starting QBs because they have a great offensive coach and that changes everything.

[adam]

In regards to a new coach, I also heard Sean Payton might be an option after this year, reuniting him with Pace. Payton went to H.S. in Naperville and college at EIU. He also shares a name with the GOAT, so there would be that too.

[scs787]

Unless you have an elite, all time defense, yes, you need a franchise QB.

 

I'd be all about bringing in Payton.

[bowlingtwig]

In today's NFL you need a franchise QB. Without you pretty much have no shot of even getting to the Superbowl much less even winning one. You do whatever it takes to get that guy. None of us know if trubisky is that guy but pace believes he is. Which is why he made that deal. If it works he will looked on as the guy who finally solved the position. If it doesn't then he will be looking for new job. Look at list. Every QB on there are considered franchise guys while many of those are future hall of famers.

[jason]

In today's NFL you need a franchise QB. Without you pretty much have no shot of even getting to the Superbowl much less even winning one. You do whatever it takes to get that guy. None of us know if trubisky is that guy but pace believes he is. Which is why he made that deal. If it works he will looked on as the guy who finally solved the position. If it doesn't then he will be looking for new job. Look at list. Every QB on there are considered franchise guys while many of those are future hall of famers.

 

Do you discount what Mongo said? The majority of those teams had very good defenses.

 

8 of those 10 had very good defenses. The question is, how easy is it to build a championship D?

 

[bowlingtwig]

Do you discount what Mongo said? The majority of those teams had very good defenses.

No absolutely not. But that wasn't the question. The question was posed if a franchise QB is needed. Simple answer is yes because everyone of those teams had 1. Look at every team that is contending yr in and yr out. Everyone of them has 1. You absolutely need more than just that 1 guy

[BearFan PHX]

If an equivalence can be made between a QB and a defense, if we can discuss with arguments on both sides that they are similar in value, then the QB is the way to go.

 

This QB cost us a first round pick, 2 x 3rd round picks and a 4th. YOu cannot build a championship defense with those four picks, so in terms of value, this was the right move.

 

Also keep in mind that last year's first pick went to defense, and next year's can too. We spent a lot of money on free agency in defense as well.

 

A Franchise QB is a bargain even if you pay 2 or 3 first rounders for him. Now we have a legit shot at one at a much lesser price. As he develops we can build the defense. Cool.

[AZ54]

Out of curiosity, for those who are engaged in this thread, what do you consider a franchise QB? I think my definition of a franchise QB is different than others. IMO a franchise guy is one who makes anyone around them better. They are QBs who consistently perform among the best in the league despite the roster changes all teams deal with.

 

Below that level are good starters who, because of the rules in today's game, are needed to win but you will have to give them some elite pieces to make it happen. When all the pieces fall into place they can have a great season (ala Ryan last year or Stafford some years) or you might find yourself drafting in the top 10.

 

I'll list the 2016 passing leaders (top to bottom in yards) and comment who I think are "franchise" guys.

 

Brees - Franchise

Ryan - good QB

Cousins - good QB

Rodgers - Franchise

Rivers - good QB

Stafford - good QB

Flacco - good QB

Luck - good QB should and could be franchise just hasn't played like it the last 2yrs

Palmer - good average QB most of the time but has his Cutler-esque moments

Wilson - Franchise

Dalton - good QB

Winston - good QB

E. Manning - good QB

Carr - good QB

Bortles - meh

Bradford - meh, maybe good QB

Roethlisberger - Franchise

Wentz - pending

Prescott - pending

Brady - Franchise

Newton - good QB

Smith - good QB (lower tier)

Mariota - good QB

 

I see 5 franchise types, and 14 good QBs of varying levels several of which have already caused their teams (current or previous) to go after other QBs such as Palmer, Bradford, and Smith.

 

--------

Part 2 of this: How long does it take for a QB to reach franchise level? Brees certainly wasn't there early in his career. Nor was Roethlisberger, Wilson (I think he showed it last year), Rodgers warmed a bench for a few years. Very few make it through from being a good QB to being a great QB. Is Matt Ryan finally a franchise QB?

 

 

 

[lemonej]

Out of curiosity, for those who are engaged in this thread, what do you consider a franchise QB? I think my definition of a franchise QB is different than others. IMO a franchise guy is one who makes anyone around them better. They are QBs who consistently perform among the best in the league despite the roster changes all teams deal with.

 

Below that level are good starters who, because of the rules in today's game, are needed to win but you will have to give them some elite pieces to make it happen. When all the pieces fall into place they can have a great season (ala Ryan last year or Stafford some years) or you might find yourself drafting in the top 10.

 

I'll list the 2016 passing leaders (top to bottom in yards) and comment who I think are "franchise" guys.

 

Brees - Franchise

Ryan - good QB

Cousins - good QB

Rodgers - Franchise

Rivers - good QB

Stafford - good QB

Flacco - good QB

Luck - good QB should and could be franchise just hasn't played like it the last 2yrs

Palmer - good average QB most of the time but has his Cutler-esque moments

Wilson - Franchise

Dalton - good QB

Winston - good QB

E. Manning - good QB

Carr - good QB

Bortles - meh

Bradford - meh, maybe good QB

Roethlisberger - Franchise

Wentz - pending

Prescott - pending

Brady - Franchise

Newton - good QB

Smith - good QB (lower tier)

Mariota - good QB

 

I see 5 franchise types, and 14 good QBs of varying levels several of which have already caused their teams (current or previous) to go after other QBs such as Palmer, Bradford, and Smith.

 

--------

Part 2 of this: How long does it take for a QB to reach franchise level? Brees certainly wasn't there early in his career. Nor was Roethlisberger, Wilson (I think he showed it last year), Rodgers warmed a bench for a few years. Very few make it through from being a good QB to being a great QB. Is Matt Ryan finally a franchise QB?

 

IMO I consider the term"Franchise QB" to mean an organization considers the quarterback a foundation to build a team around. So I would consider a few more guys on that list to fit my understanding of the term.

[Mongo3451]

IMO I consider the term"Franchise QB" to mean an organization considers the quarterback a foundation to build a team around. So I would consider a few more guys on that list to fit my understanding of the term.

Agreed. Add Newton, Rivers, Manning and Ryan to my list. Any situation where the position is locked down with no question who the leader is....

[lemonej]

Agreed. Add Newton, Rivers, Manning and Ryan to my list. Any situation where the position is locked down with no question who the leader is....

 

This!

[Alaskan Grizzly]

Out of curiosity, for those who are engaged in this thread, what do you consider a franchise QB? I think my definition of a franchise QB is different than others. IMO a franchise guy is one who makes anyone around them better. They are QBs who consistently perform among the best in the league despite the roster changes all teams deal with.

 

Below that level are good starters who, because of the rules in today's game, are needed to win but you will have to give them some elite pieces to make it happen. When all the pieces fall into place they can have a great season (ala Ryan last year or Stafford some years) or you might find yourself drafting in the top 10.

 

I'll list the 2016 passing leaders (top to bottom in yards) and comment who I think are "franchise" guys.

 

Brees - Franchise

Ryan - good QB

Cousins - good QB

Rodgers - Franchise

Rivers - good QB

Stafford - good QB

Flacco - good QB

Luck - good QB should and could be franchise just hasn't played like it the last 2yrs

Palmer - good average QB most of the time but has his Cutler-esque moments

Wilson - Franchise

Dalton - good QB

Winston - good QB

E. Manning - good QB

Carr - good QB

Bortles - meh

Bradford - meh, maybe good QB

Roethlisberger - Franchise

Wentz - pending

Prescott - pending

Brady - Franchise

Newton - good QB

Smith - good QB (lower tier)

Mariota - good QB

 

I see 5 franchise types, and 14 good QBs of varying levels several of which have already caused their teams (current or previous) to go after other QBs such as Palmer, Bradford, and Smith.

 

--------

Part 2 of this: How long does it take for a QB to reach franchise level? Brees certainly wasn't there early in his career. Nor was Roethlisberger, Wilson (I think he showed it last year), Rodgers warmed a bench for a few years. Very few make it through from being a good QB to being a great QB. Is Matt Ryan finally a franchise QB?

 

Considering your last question asking how long, I think it fair to consider the likes of Mariota, Newton, Carr, Winston, Luck and even Cousins in the 'potentially could be' category. Of this group most of these guys (save Newton) have only been playing 2-3 years and its too early to tell if they are or are not franchise QB's. Newton (2015) has been the league MVP already and some would question how goes Newton, so too goes Carolina. Thus his affect on the team's ability to win, thus he being a Franchise QB.

 

 

 

[AZ54]

I see there is a lot more tolerance for bad or inconsistent QB play among QBs not named Cutler than I would expect. If there is any doubt that Cutler is the standard bearer for bad QB play look at how many job offers he received this year.

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/comments/51y66...ng_was_695_the/

 

If the standard is 4000 yard seasons, how many has Newton had? One.

 

http://www.nfl.com/player/camnewton/2495455/careerstats

 

Newton's career passer rating: 86.1 Jay Cutler 85.7 Eli Manning 83.7

 

...and Mannings INT rate 3.2% vs. Cutler's "horrible" 3.3% both are really bad

 

Rivers has had some great seasons. He's had some Cutler-esque seasons as well. Last year he threw 21 INTs at a 3.6% rate. Franchise? In his career he's had 5 seasons with an INT rate of 3.2% or higher.

 

 

[Alaskan Grizzly]

I see there is a lot more tolerance for bad or inconsistent QB play among QBs not named Cutler than I would expect. If there is any doubt that Cutler is the standard bearer for bad QB play look at how many job offers he received this year.

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/comments/51y66...ng_was_695_the/

 

If the standard is 4000 yard seasons, how many has Newton had? One.

 

http://www.nfl.com/player/camnewton/2495455/careerstats

 

Newton's career passer rating: 86.1 Jay Cutler 85.7 Eli Manning 83.7

 

...and Mannings INT rate 3.2% vs. Cutler's "horrible" 3.3% both are really bad

 

Rivers has had some great seasons. He's had some Cutler-esque seasons as well. Last year he threw 21 INTs at a 3.6% rate. Franchise? In his career he's had 5 seasons with an INT rate of 3.2% or higher.

 

There were rumors Jay had some injury issue that on top of his less than stellar career is why he may have gotten no offers. That and I honestly don't think he really wanted to play anymore.

 

Eli has gone to, and won, two SBs and been to the Pro Bowl a handful of times. Cam has gone to one SB, been the league MVP and been to 3 Pro Bowls in his 5(?) year career. Jay had one Pro Bowl appearance and how many playoff wins? I don't think those of us critical of Cutler are alone in our judgement.

 

And to Cams defense and in relation to his lower passing numbers; he's the prototype dual-threat QB that can equally hurt you with running and pass plays.

[madlithuanian]

I don't think the barometer is stats and rating... I think it's wins.

 

That's why Eli is a franchise QB and Jay is not.

 

I see there is a lot more tolerance for bad or inconsistent QB play among QBs not named Cutler than I would expect. If there is any doubt that Cutler is the standard bearer for bad QB play look at how many job offers he received this year.

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/comments/51y66...ng_was_695_the/

 

If the standard is 4000 yard seasons, how many has Newton had? One.

 

http://www.nfl.com/player/camnewton/2495455/careerstats

 

Newton's career passer rating: 86.1 Jay Cutler 85.7 Eli Manning 83.7

 

...and Mannings INT rate 3.2% vs. Cutler's "horrible" 3.3% both are really bad

 

Rivers has had some great seasons. He's had some Cutler-esque seasons as well. Last year he threw 21 INTs at a 3.6% rate. Franchise? In his career he's had 5 seasons with an INT rate of 3.2% or higher.

 

[ASHKUM BEAR]

Agreed. Add Newton, Rivers, Manning and Ryan to my list. Any situation where the position is locked down with no question who the leader is....

This says it all. You need a leader and one that earns the position and is not annoited to it.

[Lucky Luciano]

We won over 30 years ago, so using us as an example is probably not the best way to support your argument. Also, some will argue with some good data to back it up that our 1986 defense was even better than our 1985 defense, yet we lost in the Divisional Round, probably needed a better QB.

 

it boiled down to a lot of things.

 

1. coaching: face it, we had some of the worst coaches with some of the best talent in the entire NFL.

 

head coach - idiot - our genius head coach was so busy making commercials and money he forgot what his job was (not that he was very good at it in the first place). and force flutie in as our QB for the playoffs? hmmmm.

 

OC - not bad... yes they certainly needed better QB play. jimmy mac had his career virtually ended by the packer scum charles martin. that left a decent 'BACKUP' in tomzak who didn't have the horses to be a true NFL starter. attitude but not talent. and flutie? yikes!!

 

so this can absolutely be seen as lacking due to injury and stupidity.

 

DC - idiot - as far as defensive data goes... in my opinion it was NOT a better defense no matter what the stats said.

 

vince tobin wasn't even in the same league as buddy ryan. in fact he was an idiot. he tried to turn one of the best attack defenses in the history of the NFL into a read and react defense. was the defense very good? yes because they had the talent that couldn't be hidden.

 

that said, they were sloppy and poorly disciplined compared to a ryan coached defense and it showed not to mention a dullards scheme.

 

GM - COMPLETE IDIOT - mike mccasky, genius, yale graduate, book author and our franchises new GM. that alone is enough to destroy a franchise single handed.

[Stinger226]

it boiled down to a lot of things.

 

1. coaching: face it, we had some of the worst coaches with some of the best talent in the entire NFL.

 

head coach - idiot - our genius head coach was so busy making commercials and money he forgot what his job was (not that he was very good at it in the first place). and force flutie in as our QB for the playoffs? hmmmm.

 

OC - not bad... yes they certainly needed better QB play. jimmy mac had his career virtually ended by the packer scum charles martin. that left a decent 'BACKUP' in tomzak who didn't have the horses to be a true NFL starter. attitude but not talent. and flutie? yikes!!

 

so this can absolutely be seen as lacking due to injury and stupidity.

 

DC - idiot - as far as defensive data goes... in my opinion it was NOT a better defense no matter what the stats said.

 

vince tobin wasn't even in the same league as buddy ryan. in fact he was an idiot. he tried to turn one of the best attack defenses in the history of the NFL into a read and react defense. was the defense very good? yes because they had the talent that couldn't be hidden.

 

that said, they were sloppy and poorly disciplined compared to a ryan coached defense and it showed not to mention a dullards scheme.

 

GM - COMPLETE IDIOT - mike mccasky, genius, yale graduate, book author and our franchises new GM. that alone is enough to destroy a franchise single handed.

everybody has fault when you go to one SB in the last 20 years.

[AZ54]

There were rumors Jay had some injury issue that on top of his less than stellar career is why he may have gotten no offers. That and I honestly don't think he really wanted to play anymore. Eli has gone to, and won, two SBs and been to the Pro Bowl a handful of times. Cam has gone to one SB, been the league MVP and been to 3 Pro Bowls in his 5(?) year career. Jay had one Pro Bowl appearance and how many playoff wins? I don't think those of us critical of Cutler are alone in our judgement. And to Cams defense and in relation to his lower passing numbers; he's the prototype dual-threat QB that can equally hurt you with running and pass plays.

 

Eli Superbowls with a great defense

 

Newton Superbowl with a great defense

 

IMO it just validates that you don't need an elite franchise QB, just a good one and then build around them. Cam greatly benefitted from all the turnovers and short fields his defense gave him in his MVP year. He failed miserably in the biggest game of his career and pouted about it afterwards and ran off the stage league MVP style. Hard to see how that's not worse behavior that what Cutler had done on many occasions. That's not the first time Cam was pouting like that, nor was it his last. When that defense couldn't support him the same way in 2016 he was average.

 

http://www.footballdb.com/stats/qb-records.html?type=post

 

Jay Cutler had 1 playoff win, 1 playoff loss. Romo had 2 playoff wins, 4 playoff losses. Matt Ryan has 2 playoff wins, 5 playoff losses including the biggest collapse in Superbowl history. Cam Newton is 3 win/3 loss.

 

Mitch Trubisky has everything needed to become a good QB.

 

 

 

 

[Alaskan Grizzly]

Eli Superbowls with a great defense

 

Newton Superbowl with a great defense

 

IMO it just validates that you don't need an elite franchise QB, just a good one and then build around them. Cam greatly benefitted from all the turnovers and short fields his defense gave him in his MVP year. He failed miserably in the biggest game of his career and pouted about it afterwards and ran off the stage league MVP style. Hard to see how that's not worse behavior that what Cutler had done on many occasions. That's not the first time Cam was pouting like that, nor was it his last. When that defense couldn't support him the same way in 2016 he was average.

 

http://www.footballdb.com/stats/qb-records.html?type=post

 

Jay Cutler had 1 playoff win, 1 playoff loss. Romo had 2 playoff wins, 4 playoff losses. Matt Ryan has 2 playoff wins, 5 playoff losses including the biggest collapse in Superbowl history. Cam Newton is 3 win/3 loss.

 

Mitch Trubisky has everything needed to become a good QB.

 

Mitch Trubisky may in fact become a good NFL QB. I will not argue that point. He is not yet. And he's definitley not a Franchise QB. But this discussion we are having has taken two paths. The first being whether you really need a Franchise QB to win it all. You and I appear to agree that you do not. Then the second path was about a list of QBs you thought were Franchise QBs and some were just good QBs which I said there were some on the list, you considered "meh" or good QBs that still needed time to be evaluated to determine whether they were Franchise level quality. And then a sub path evolved regarding how if Cutler was the measure of bad QBing then surely QBs like Newton must be too because his stats are similar, in some regards. And now we're back to saying that Franchise QBs aren't that key an element.

 

Yes I don't agree with you possibly?

 

[Mongo3451]

I never really answered the question of topic. My answer is yes. In the last 25 years I can only think of 2 QB's that did not meet my definition of a franchise QB.(Dilfer and Johnson) What they had in common was undeniably great alltime type defenses. You must have a solid starter to compete from year to year. The great defense will fade through attrition. The franchise QB will be there for 15 years.

[Lucky Luciano]

I never really answered the question of topic. My answer is yes. In the last 25 years I can only think of 2 QB's that did not meet my definition of a franchise QB.(Dilfer and Johnson) What they had in common was undeniably great alltime type defenses. You must have a solid starter to compete from year to year. The great defense will fade through attrition. The franchise QB will be there for 15 years.

 

totally agree. with the franchise qb you are set (barring injury) for 12 + years to compete at a high level for a shot at the title.

 

if you are relying on defense that means you have multiple players making high cap hit salaries so the time is limited how long you can sustain the high level of defensive production once they ultimately leave in free agency. you have maybe a 3-4 year window before it breaks down.

 

also in the mid 2000's we had a pretty good defense but still couldn't get to the show only once and got it handed to us by a franchise qb. i'm all in on the very good/franchise quality QB.