Who is checking out?

[DABEARSDABOMB]

What about Cooter?

Everyone is high on Cooter, but I couldn't get past the stat in the Lions game...60+ games without a 100 yard rusher. That is insane and while the league is a passing league, the better teams can run the ball.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

Whatever you and Alsaka are smoking, I'd trademark it, because you'll make billions!

 

Saying that the piles of rubbish we had over the years were worse than Toub. OK. I'll buy. But damn. If the only OC candidate we can find to teach Tru is Toub, it is seriously f'ed up. It's funny to say the junk we've had is awful, etc...but no way on God's green earth is Toub being hired by any NFL team to be an OC...

 

He hasn't been hired for an HC job either. And since 2011 has interviewed for at least 4 maybe 5 of them. Why is that?

 

What you suggest is a COMPLETE overhaul of the entire coaching staff; similar to 2013 when Trestman came in with the likes of Tucker on as DC.

 

I really don't get what your absolute dislike is for the idea I propose. Your reaction seems way out of character and to me makes as little sense as mine does to you. But whatever, chances are pretty good it won't happen anyhow so you can take solace in knowing that.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

Everyone is high on Cooter, but I couldn't get past the stat in the Lions game...60+ games without a 100 yard rusher. That is insane and while the league is a passing league, the better teams can run the ball.

 

Was thinking the same thing every time I saw them cutaway to him on the sideline. Their offense hasn't been really all that spectacular since he's been there.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

Im shocked you agree with Grixzzly on this. Either way Ill show you guys some info that makes this thought "PS4 talk".

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_curre...ve_coordinators

 

Take a look at the list of current OC's......see if you can find one that had zero offensive coaching experience before becoming an OC. IF you dont want to take the time Ill tell you, not one. There is only one or two on the list that actually had any Defensive coaching experience at all. ALL had years of Offensive coaching experience before becoming a OC.

 

Funny thing about your 'list'; about half of those guys were once HC's that were fired and eventually re-hired as OC's. Hmmmm...

 

And as of yesterday one guy on your 'list', Mike McCoy, was fired as OC in Denver one year removed from being fired as HC in SD.

[Chitownhustla]

Funny thing about your 'list'; about half of those guys were once HC's that were fired and eventually re-hired as OC's. Hmmmm...

 

And as of yesterday one guy on your 'list', Mike McCoy, was fired as OC in Denver one year removed from being fired as HC in SD.

 

My list????? I didnt come up with it, its the active OC list of the all NFL teams........ real question, have you ever played football or coached football????? What does being an OC who went on to being a HC back to OC have to do with being a STC to OC??????? The two do not correlate.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

My list????? I didnt come up with it, its the active OC list of the all NFL teams........ real question, have you ever played football or coached football????? What does being an OC who went on to being a HC back to OC have to do with being a STC to OC??????? The two do not correlate.

 

Not that it makes any difference to this conversation; yes I have both played and coached. But again, this has nothing to do with the discussion.

 

The list YOU PRESENTED reflects a list of some people that were at one time Head Coaches and may have previously been OCs only to go back to being OCs after failing in the role of HC. In one case; McCoy went from being an OC to HC to OC to fired in less than two years. “YOUR LIST” proves a flaw in your argument that at least half of the current OC’s have failed as Head Coaches. It says nothing of Special Team coaches abilities.

 

You have no data to support your claim that a Special Teams coach could not be an OC. Only opinion. We have RARE occurrences of them being successful as HCs and can only derive that aside from Harbaugh the conventional wisdom is that Special Team Coaches are not suited for the role as Head Coaches. Unless, perhaps they were first given the opportunity to succeed elsewhere and perhaps in a lesser role.

[Chitownhustla]

Not that it makes any difference to this conversation; yes I have both played and coached. But again, this has nothing to do with the discussion.

 

The list YOU PRESENTED reflects a list of some people that were at one time Head Coaches and may have previously been OCs only to go back to being OCs after failing in the role of HC. In one case; McCoy went from being an OC to HC to OC to fired in less than two years. “YOUR LIST” proves a flaw in your argument that at least half of the current OC’s have failed as Head Coaches. It says nothing of Special Team coaches abilities.

 

You have no data to support your claim that a Special Teams coach could not be an OC. Only opinion. We have RARE occurrences of them being successful as HCs and can only derive that aside from Harbaugh the conventional wisdom is that Special Team Coaches are not suited for the role as Head Coaches. Unless, perhaps they were first given the opportunity to succeed elsewhere and perhaps in a lesser role.

 

 

My list proves a flaw in my argument????? How so? I posted the list to show that ZERO OC's came from being a STC. An OC failing as a HC or a STC suceeding as a HC has no bearing on whether a STC would be a good OC.

 

Find me one OC in the history of the NFL that had zero Offense coaching experience that go from being a STC to OC....... As for data to support my claim, Im guessing we wont find any data on it because its never happened......why has it never happened, because this is not some fairly land where a DC sleeps at a Holiday INN express and wakes up being an OC or vice versa.

 

Your opinion is the Toub should be hired as our OC, my opinion is that Toub would make a terrible OC because he doesnt know offense like an OC should.....Guys who have spent their entire career's coaching and studying Offense cant do the job well....and you want to make a career STC our OC.....

[jason]

My list proves a flaw in my argument????? How so? I posted the list to show that ZERO OC's came from being a STC. An OC failing as a HC or a STC suceeding as a HC has no bearing on whether a STC would be a good OC.

 

Find me one OC in the history of the NFL that had zero Offense coaching experience that go from being a STC to OC....... As for data to support my claim, Im guessing we wont find any data on it because its never happened......why has it never happened, because this is not some fairly land where a DC sleeps at a Holiday INN express and wakes up being an OC or vice versa.

 

Your opinion is the Toub should be hired as our OC, my opinion is that Toub would make a terrible OC because he doesnt know offense like an OC should.....Guys who have spent their entire career's coaching and studying Offense cant do the job well....and you want to make a career STC our OC.....

 

What he's saying is, the list you linked to is only:

1. Proof that the current OCs are from offensive backgrounds.

2. Full of guys who have sucked as OCs. A few have not.

 

Nowhere on the list does it demonstrate or prove that a ST coach couldn't successfully transition into an OC position.

[Chitownhustla]

Another list to prove my point

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_curre...ve_coordinators

 

Find the one DC who has any offense on their coaching resume....yep only one of the current DC's in the NFL right now has any offense experience......why is that......because def coaches stick to defense and off coaches stick to offense..........Could Toub be an OC, sure he COULD.......doesnt mean he SHOULD......... he suggesting he would be a good hire as an OC is a dumb comment....that is my only argument...... I agree with you that Toub is a great Coach, I agree with you that he will probably make a great HC. Im only saying that Toub as an OC will NEVER happen because experts of all things offense are the only guys that get those positions.

[jason]

Another list to prove my point

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_curre...ve_coordinators

 

Find the one DC who has any offense on their coaching resume....yep only one of the current DC's in the NFL right now has any offense experience......why is that......because def coaches stick to defense and off coaches stick to offense..........Could Toub be an OC, sure he COULD.......doesnt mean he SHOULD......... he suggesting he would be a good hire as an OC is a dumb comment....that is my only argument...... I agree with you that Toub is a great Coach, I agree with you that he will probably make a great HC. Im only saying that Toub as an OC will NEVER happen because experts of all things offense are the only guys that get those positions.

 

Again. You're probably right in terms of whether or not it would happen. It probably never will. But that's only because of the static thinking of these guys who year after year profess themselves to be so amazing and irreplaceable, but year after year only a handful are great at the job. It might not be a bad idea to run an experiment like Toub-to-OC. He'd probably do better than most. That list only proves the static thinking among the coaching ranks and front office types. It doesn't prove Toub would be bad as an OC.

 

The Bears aren't likely to do it, but Trestman was supposed to be magical with QBs, and that didn't pan out.

 

It would definitely be a risky bet, and Trubisky's development as a QB would be the ante.

[Chitownhustla]

What he's saying is, the list you linked to is only:

1. Proof that the current OCs are from offensive backgrounds.

2. Full of guys who have sucked as OCs. A few have not.

 

Nowhere on the list does it demonstrate or prove that a ST coach couldn't successfully transition into an OC position.

I understand what he says my link is saying. I guess its not clear. Ill try to make it very clear:

 

1. He said the Bears should hire Toub as an OC

2. I said that is the dumbest shit Ive ever read

3. he said why, he is a good STC and interviewed for HC jobs.

4. I said because it never happens, because this is not some fairy tale land.

5. Posted a link proving current STC's do not get promoted to run OC jobs.

6. Now the argument is whether Toub COULD be a good OC, because he doesnt want to admit it was a dumb comment

7. Could.....sure......shouldnt.....

8. If the anyone hires Toub as an OC I will bet you and Grizzley 10,000 dollars that he doesnt last 2 years......how about it???? If you guys are so confident that he would be a great OC, lets bet on it.....We can hire an attorney and put the money in escrow........ If you guys dont want to bet money we can bet my season Bears tickets. Only problem is this will never happen.....

[Chitownhustla]

 

Im now hoping Toub gets hired as the Bears HC and takes us to a SB. Hell maybe he can call some plays for the OC while he's at it.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

I understand what he says my link is saying. I guess its not clear. Ill try to make it very clear:

 

1. He said the Bears should hire Toub as an OC

2. I said that is the dumbest shit Ive ever read

3. he said why, he is a good STC and interviewed for HC jobs.

4. I said because it never happens, because this is not some fairy tale land.

5. Posted a link proving current STC's do not get promoted to run OC jobs.

6. Now the argument is whether Toub COULD be a good OC, because he doesnt want to admit it was a dumb comment

7. Could.....sure......shouldnt.....

8. If the anyone hires Toub as an OC I will bet you and Grizzley 10,000 dollars that he doesnt last 2 years......how about it???? If you guys are so confident that he would be a great OC, lets bet on it.....We can hire an attorney and put the money in escrow........ If you guys dont want to bet money we can bet my season Bears tickets. Only problem is this will never happen.....

 

2. I doubt that.

4. 'What' never happens?

5. Actually no you didn't. As Jason pointed out, you posted a link that shows current OC's in the NFL, half of which were at one time Head Coaches and then fired. Which goes to show some OC's don't succeed as HC's.

6. I still don't think it a 'dumb comment' because you have no proof he couldn't be. Again, just your opinion...which is not credible (as we established previously).

8. I'll pass, for two reasons: I don't bet and the Bears season tickets aren't worth $10,000.

 

[Alaskan Grizzly]

It would definitely be a risky bet, and Trubisky's development as a QB would be the ante.

 

Just as he could theoretically make a good HC so too could he be a decent OC. The ante wouldn't necessarily be all that risky if he finds a great QB coach. Imagine someone like a Tony Romo deciding one day he would rather be an NFL coach; you don't think people would jump at the chance to get him? I know that's less likely than Toub being hired as OC but you never know.

 

The point being, in order to be successful in whatever he did part of Toub's success (or any good lead coach) is to surround yourself with good people that know their stuff. If he were to find reputable assistant coaches I'm sure he'd be able to do just fine. As far as overall coordinating, he's studied under one of the more reputable offensive minds in Andy Reid so safe to say he probably understands offense a lot better than people give him credit.

[madlithuanian]

re: item 2...

 

You can't prove a negative...

 

Nor on the list does it prove you can't go from being a cheerleading or tiddlywinks coach to being an OC...

 

What he's saying is, the list you linked to is only:

1. Proof that the current OCs are from offensive backgrounds.

2. Full of guys who have sucked as OCs. A few have not.

 

Nowhere on the list does it demonstrate or prove that a ST coach couldn't successfully transition into an OC position.

 

[madlithuanian]

Maybe he can discover the cure for cancer while he's at it too! You know, cause we can't prove that he can't...

 

Im now hoping Toub gets hired as the Bears HC and takes us to a SB. Hell maybe he can call some plays for the OC while he's at it.

 

[Chitownhustla]

2. I doubt that. I would compare this "Toub to OC" comment to many of Lavar Balls.

 

4. 'What' never happens? I have never seen a STC get promoted to OC.

 

5. Actually no you didn't. As Jason pointed out, you posted a link that shows current OC's in the NFL, half of which were at one time Head Coaches and then fired. Which goes to show some OC's don't succeed as HC's. What does OC's failing as HC's have to do with STC being promoted to OC without any Offense experience??? Let's stay on topic here, I get that you want to think you are smarter then everyone else but you are not.

 

 

6. I still don't think it a 'dumb comment' because you have no proof he couldn't be. Again, just your opinion...which is not credible (as we established previously). Who's opinion is not credible? The guy who thinks it's the worst idea in the world to hire a guy with no coaching experience on the offensive side of the ball as the Bears OC or the guy that does. The Bears history with QB's has been terrible. They draft a guy number 2 overall and you want to hire a guy with no experience coaching offense or no experience calling plays. Are you freakin shitting me?????? Your comment that he will hire good guys around him, you understand thats what the HC does by hiring the best OC and DC he can find. You clearly have no clue how an Coaching staff is put together. Toub has 0 experience. 0. Let that sink it you dipshit. And you want him to design the Bears entire offense and call the game. Do you understand how much time guys put into learning a system and playcalling???? I dont think you do...... My new nickname for you will be Lavar.

 

 

 

8. I'll pass, for two reasons: I don't bet and the Bears season tickets aren't worth $10,000. I understand that you don't bet. As far as what Bears tickets are worth, again you show that you have no clue about what you are talking about.

 

[Chitownhustla]

Maybe he can discover the cure for cancer while he's at it too! You know, cause we can't prove that he can't...

 

lolololololol!!! Thanks Mad, I just spit coffee all over my computer screen.

[jason]

re: item 2...

 

You can't prove a negative...

 

Nor on the list does it prove you can't go from being a cheerleading or tiddlywinks coach to being an OC...

 

That's almost precisely my point. You can't prove a negative. Neither list provided shows how a ST coach can't be an OC. Both just show the current belief among NFL people is that offensive guys stay in their lane, sometimes go up to HC, and sometimes come back.

 

 

[madlithuanian]

You've just contradicted yourself.

 

We aren't arguing the idea of the realm of possibility. Sure, it is possible given the laws of physics that Toub could be promoted to OC, run the most prolific offense known to man and beast, result in a stream of SB wins unrivaled by none... But... The odds of that happening are so slim it's un-calculatable even by Neil DeGrasse.

 

Jason, I know you are a very sharp person and astute fan of football. Please, see that your logic is utterly completely flawed here.

 

This argument is not over OC's becoming HC's and going back down. It's about the idea that a STC would get a promotion to OC tutoring the most important person we have on our team with virtually no experience doing so.

 

Not only won't it happen. It shouldn't.

 

That's almost precisely my point. You can't prove a negative. Neither list provided shows how a ST coach can't be an OC. Both just show the current belief among NFL people is that offensive guys stay in their lane, sometimes go up to HC, and sometimes come back.

 

[DABEARSDABOMB]

Now I've listed coaches I don't like, but Frank Reich is a guy I really really like. He did well with Phillip Rivers and now doing great work in Philly with Wentz. He'd be very high on my list if we were to make a change (and go with an assistant). I still am a fan of stability though. I actually think Loggains is pretty creative, but the Bears have been extremely careful in how creative they've been because they recognize Trubisky has his limitations. I'd also say that Trubisky has developed (AZ made that point earlier in this thread and I think it was lost). You can't ignore the fact that Trubisky is making strides and not give some credit to the coaches, imo.

 

We knew he was raw when we drafted him and were forced to start him sooner then the staff liked and thus they kept things much more vanilla before slowly opening the playbook up. Not necessarily that bad of a concept...yes, as fans it isn't sexy, but it is better then letting your rookie throw 5 picks in his first game or going the route of the Browns (where Kizer has just been wrecked). I actually feel like the Bears coaching staff truly has had a plan and while they had to speed up that plan, they are being very methodical in terms of how much they open up the playbook.

[madlithuanian]

Alaska is not a dummy. He's just confusing the idea of "possible".

 

It's possible under the laws of physics to happen. It just has no remote chance of being so. It's the same as if a shoe salesmen were to be promoted to OC. Maybe he's Good Will Hunting OC. But, we all know he won't be...

 

I think that's where jason and Alaska are failed here. That they argue it's possible. The issue is it's not remotely probable. ...and they are digging their heels in so hard to try to be right it's comical.

[madlithuanian]

 

lolololololol!!! Thanks Mad, I just spit coffee all over my computer screen.

 

[DABEARSDABOMB]

Alaska is not a dummy. He's just confusing the idea of "possible".

 

It's possible under the laws of physics to happen. It just has no remote chance of being so. It's the same as if a shoe salesmen were to be promoted to OC. Maybe he's Good Will Hunting OC. But, we all know he won't be...

 

I think that's where jason and Alaska are failed here. That they argue it's possible. The issue is it's not remotely probable.

Agree; The reality is if we hired an OC who hasn't been at all close to running an offense, we would be widely considered a laughing stock. Could it work...sure, but the fact is, he just hasn't been involved running an offense before. A really bright guy might figure it out...but man that is a leap of faith and a LOT of learning on the job. I could maybe see it if the HC was an OC and it was more of a "grooming" process where the HC was still really acting in the role of an OC (and if that were the case, I don't think it would be done for Toub).

 

Your analogy around the lead doctor was spot on. Toub could definitely be a good HC candidate...but I would be disgusted if we entrusted him to be the OC for Trubisky.

[jason]

You've just contradicted yourself.

 

We aren't arguing the idea of the realm of possibility. Sure, it is possible given the laws of physics that Toub could be promoted to OC, run the most prolific offense known to man and beast, result in a stream of SB wins unrivaled by none... But... The odds of that happening are so slim it's un-calculatable even by Neil DeGrasse.

 

Jason, I know you are a very sharp person and astute fan of football. Please, see that your logic is utterly completely flawed here.

 

This argument is not over OC's becoming HC's and going back down. It's about the idea that a STC would get a promotion to OC tutoring the most important person we have on our team with virtually no experience doing so.

 

Not only won't it happen. It shouldn't.

 

Where did I contradict myself? The mere possibility is the only thing I've been debating the entire time. A STC could (not would) get a promotion (debatable if it's a promotion) to become an OC. Furthermore, he could do as well or better than the burning feces the Bears have had running offenses. It's unlikely because of the establishment of front offices believing in a rigid, homogeneous pool of candidates. Like I said elsewhere, Money Ball is a perfect example of when thinking outside the box can produce amazing results. This could be a situation like that, but won't, because the people in charge are the same guys who continually hire retreads who got fired unceremoniously from the previous two or three jobs where they were considered an expert.

 

For this franchise, like I've said before, it's probably not the best move, because Trubisky is the most important player the Bears have picked in perhaps a decade or more.