Who is checking out?

[madlithuanian]

Fair enough. Maybe it isn't quite a contradiction according the Hoyle. But it's a Catch 22. There is no evidence in either direction.

 

Regardless, your argument on "possibility" is illogical. It's a fools errand to argue just for argument's sake. I'm trying to live in some semblance of reality.

 

I commend your constitution for digging your heels in, but nor am I backing down from calling your STC to OC statement as nothing more than fantasy BS. I get you're upset with the trash we've dealt with n the past, and sometimes going outside the box can bring some positive results. More than likely it doesn't. And if I remember correctly, Money Ball didn't bring the A's a Series Championship...

 

All that said, your last line, bolded, might be the closest thing you will ever say admitting you are wrong. I'll take it.

 

Where did I contradict myself? The mere possibility is the only thing I've been debating the entire time. A STC could (not would) get a promotion (debatable if it's a promotion) to become an OC. Furthermore, he could do as well or better than the burning feces the Bears have had running offenses. It's unlikely because of the establishment of front offices believing in a rigid, homogeneous pool of candidates. Like I said elsewhere, Money Ball is a perfect example of when thinking outside the box can produce amazing results. This could be a situation like that, but won't, because the people in charge are the same guys who continually hire retreads who got fired unceremoniously from the previous two or three jobs where they were considered an expert.

 

For this franchise, like I've said before, it's probably not the best move, because Trubisky is the most important player the Bears have picked in perhaps a decade or more.

 

[Mongo3451]

It's possible under the laws of PHYSICS to happen. It just has no remote chance of being so. It's the same as if a shoe salesmen were to be promoted to OC. Maybe he's Good Will Hunting OC. But, we all know he won't be...

You misspelled psychics, ?...

 

[madlithuanian]

Ha! There goes my job as editor-in-chief...

 

 

 

You misspelled psychics, ?...

 

[madlithuanian]

Could be maybe Toub sucks at anything other than being a STC?

 

Honestly, I am suggesting nothing other than Toub as OC is ridiculous... That is the argument here. Just because we hire poorly in the past doesn't mean we didn't hire positionally correctly. We needed a DC. We hired Tucker. He was the wrong DC to hire.

 

The dislike is it is just so silly of an idea. Here we are on the precipice of a legit turnaround. A potential franchise QB, and up and coming D...etc. Now is the time to do what smart football minds do. Hire the correct man for the correct job. Hire offensive minds to coach offense, Hire defensive minds to coach defense, Hire special teams minds to coach special teams. HC is the wild card. I would prefer an offensive mind. Because it could prove to be the foundation for Tru. A great OC could leave for a HC next season. At least w/ an offensive mind in charge, Tru can have some more stability. Could it be a DC or STC too? Absolutely, If Pace feels he's got the guy (see Billicheck)...then do it. His career is tied to Tru and who he hires next as HC. The one thing I'm 100% certain of is that Pace won't hire Toub as OC. Or allow his HC to do so. That is just asinine. You maybe do that when you've got nothing to lose. If you've just piled up $10K in Vegas on roulette, you don't place the lot on green. You maybe choose red or black. It's still a gamble whoever you hire, but getting an offensive mind simply increases your chance of something good than pining away for a STC to somehow change careers over an off-season and be brilliant at something else. We have too much to lose. This isn't the paltry years of jabroni QBs. We could legitimately have something here.

 

That is why I stand against silliness here. Don't get tricky at the goal line with an inch and run some triple reverse with a flea flicker. Run Howard in for the TD...

 

 

 

He hasn't been hired for an HC job either. And since 2011 has interviewed for at least 4 maybe 5 of them. Why is that?

 

What you suggest is a COMPLETE overhaul of the entire coaching staff; similar to 2013 when Trestman came in with the likes of Tucker on as DC.

 

I really don't get what your absolute dislike is for the idea I propose. Your reaction seems way out of character and to me makes as little sense as mine does to you. But whatever, chances are pretty good it won't happen anyhow so you can take solace in knowing that.

 

[Connorbear]

Could be maybe Toub sucks at anything other than being a STC?

 

Honestly, I am suggesting nothing other than Toub as OC is ridiculous... That is the argument here. Just because we hire poorly in the past doesn't mean we didn't hire positionally correctly. We needed a DC. We hired Tucker. He was the wrong DC to hire.

 

The dislike is it is just so silly of an idea. Here we are on the precipice of a legit turnaround. A potential franchise QB, and up and coming D...etc. Now is the time to do what smart football minds do. Hire the correct man for the correct job. Hire offensive minds to coach offense, Hire defensive minds to coach defense, Hire special teams minds to coach special teams. HC is the wild card. I would prefer an offensive mind. Because it could prove to be the foundation for Tru. A great OC could leave for a HC next season. At least w/ an offensive mind in charge, Tru can have some more stability. Could it be a DC or STC too? Absolutely, If Pace feels he's got the guy (see Billicheck)...then do it. His career is tied to Tru and who he hires next as HC. The one thing I'm 100% certain of is that Pace won't hire Toub as OC. Or allow his HC to do so. That is just asinine. You maybe do that when you've got nothing to lose. If you've just piled up $10K in Vegas on roulette, you don't place the lot on green. You maybe choose red or black. It's still a gamble whoever you hire, but getting an offensive mind simply increases your chance of something good than pining away for a STC to somehow change careers over an off-season and be brilliant at something else. We have too much to lose. This isn't the paltry years of jabroni QBs. We could legitimately have something here.

 

That is why I stand against silliness here. Don't get tricky at the goal line with an inch and run some triple reverse with a flea flicker. Run Howard in for the TD...

 

Agreed 100%

 

Peace

 

[Alaskan Grizzly]

Could be maybe Toub sucks at anything other than being a STC?

 

Honestly, I am suggesting nothing other than Toub as OC is ridiculous... That is the argument here. Just because we hire poorly in the past doesn't mean we didn't hire positionally correctly. We needed a DC. We hired Tucker. He was the wrong DC to hire.

 

The dislike is it is just so silly of an idea. Here we are on the precipice of a legit turnaround. A potential franchise QB, and up and coming D...etc. Now is the time to do what smart football minds do. Hire the correct man for the correct job. Hire offensive minds to coach offense, Hire defensive minds to coach defense, Hire special teams minds to coach special teams. HC is the wild card. I would prefer an offensive mind. Because it could prove to be the foundation for Tru. A great OC could leave for a HC next season. At least w/ an offensive mind in charge, Tru can have some more stability. Could it be a DC or STC too? Absolutely, If Pace feels he's got the guy (see Billicheck)...then do it. His career is tied to Tru and who he hires next as HC. The one thing I'm 100% certain of is that Pace won't hire Toub as OC. Or allow his HC to do so. That is just asinine. You maybe do that when you've got nothing to lose. If you've just piled up $10K in Vegas on roulette, you don't place the lot on green. You maybe choose red or black. It's still a gamble whoever you hire, but getting an offensive mind simply increases your chance of something good than pining away for a STC to somehow change careers over an off-season and be brilliant at something else. We have too much to lose. This isn't the paltry years of jabroni QBs. We could legitimately have something here.

 

That is why I stand against silliness here. Don't get tricky at the goal line with an inch and run some triple reverse with a flea flicker. Run Howard in for the TD...

 

One thing I do know is that we have not had a winning season since Lovie Smith. You and others here were beside yourselves with the idea that not only was the 'wicked witch Smith' gone but FINALLY they were going to hire someone to cater to Cutler and his abilities. That did not pan out. Is that the organization's fault? Probably. Still, you were supportive of the unconventional idea. You even held out hope that at some point Cutler would prove himself worthy of the title; "Franchise Quarterback". Again you and many others were let down. I almost question your credibility like I highly doubt your new friend Chitown. You were once ok with risky picks and ideas but are now against them. I get it. 'Burn me once, shame on you...burn me twice...' and all that.

 

So, since you apparently have this all mapped out, who are your recommendations for HC or OC? Please enlighten me with what you think would be a "safe" choice to lead your "potential" Franchise QB and the Bears to the promised land?

 

*Edit* Because I was curious, I did some more reading up on this very idea. Take a look at the path Bill Belichick took and let's discuss. I think it relevant.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

2. I doubt that. I would compare this "Toub to OC" comment to many of Lavar Balls.

 

4. 'What' never happens? I have never seen a STC get promoted to OC.

 

5. Actually no you didn't. As Jason pointed out, you posted a link that shows current OC's in the NFL, half of which were at one time Head Coaches and then fired. Which goes to show some OC's don't succeed as HC's. What does OC's failing as HC's have to do with STC being promoted to OC without any Offense experience??? Let's stay on topic here, I get that you want to think you are smarter then everyone else but you are not.

 

 

6. I still don't think it a 'dumb comment' because you have no proof he couldn't be. Again, just your opinion...which is not credible (as we established previously). Who's opinion is not credible? The guy who thinks it's the worst idea in the world to hire a guy with no coaching experience on the offensive side of the ball as the Bears OC or the guy that does. The Bears history with QB's has been terrible. They draft a guy number 2 overall and you want to hire a guy with no experience coaching offense or no experience calling plays. Are you freakin shitting me?????? Your comment that he will hire good guys around him, you understand thats what the HC does by hiring the best OC and DC he can find. You clearly have no clue how an Coaching staff is put together. Toub has 0 experience. 0. Let that sink it you dipshit. And you want him to design the Bears entire offense and call the game. Do you understand how much time guys put into learning a system and playcalling???? I dont think you do...... My new nickname for you will be Lavar.

 

 

 

8. I'll pass, for two reasons: I don't bet and the Bears season tickets aren't worth $10,000. I understand that you don't bet. As far as what Bears tickets are worth, again you show that you have no clue about what you are talking about.

 

I suppose if you'd lovingly prefer to call me "Lavar" I shall dub thee Donald. Why is that? We can discuss elsewhere in a political forum but I'll tell you that you both have a ton of parallels. And like Donald, before you assume that is a compliment...its not.

 

Spare me the ridiculous assumptions I have no understanding about what football is about. You're embarrassing yourself with idiotic and childish presumptions. The fact that you whole heartedly support the idea of our overall #2 pick being the 'messiah' tells me you are blind in love or just plain 'naive'. Remember, you are the guy that was and is convinced that if Cutler 'was given the right opportunity' he could've been somebody. Yeah I'm the clueless one.

 

So you're sure you could find someone to buy Bear's season tickets for $10,000 are you?

[Chitownhustla]

I suppose if you'd lovingly prefer to call me "Lavar" I shall dub thee Donald. Why is that? We can discuss elsewhere in a political forum but I'll tell you that you both have a ton of parallels. And like Donald, before you assume that is a compliment...its not.

 

Spare me the ridiculous assumptions I have no understanding about what football is about. You're embarrassing yourself with idiotic and childish presumptions. The fact that you whole heartedly support the idea of our overall #2 pick being the 'messiah' tells me you are blind in love or just plain 'naive'. Remember, you are the guy that was and is convinced that if Cutler 'was given the right opportunity' he could've been somebody. Yeah I'm the clueless one.

 

So you're sure you could find someone to buy Bear's season tickets for $10,000 are you?

 

Hey Lavar,

 

Donald here, I prefer to be called El Presidente. Ill take being nicknamed Donald, at least he made a couple billion and became president. What has Lavar done? Other then get air time for spewing the most amount of bullshit Ive ever seen. Side note, not a fan of Donald so maybe we agree on something.....maybe we can be friends after all.

 

Getting back to your understanding of Football, I do question your total understanding of football with making the argument that Toub should be hired as the OC. Im now seeing that you cant handle being wrong. You will twist your argument just so you feel better about yourself. Toub COULD be an OC.........yeah Lavar, everyone knows anyone can do anything they set their little hearts too, look..... Donald became president. Doesnt mean its the right choice tho.

 

As for Cutler, I admitted I was wrong. He could never get over the hurdle. There are many reasons he never got to the franchise level QB I hoped he would. But Im not going to waste my time rehashing that with you, as there is no reasoning with you about anything related to Cutler. So Im glad you brought Cutler up, see I was man enough to admit I was wrong.......Are you man enough?

 

On to Mitch, where did I say he was the Messiah? The guy has thrown about 26 passes through 5 or 6 games. The only thing Ive said about ole Mitchy is that I think hiring Toub as the OC would be the dumbest move in the history of all dumbshit moves the Bears have ever done. I didnt say he COULDNT, just that its the dumbest idea ever brought up here in bearstalk. I would prefer an OC that has a proven track record of developing QB's, or even a guy like you mentioned Tony Romo, someone who studied the QB position and offense for his entire career. Hey come to think about it, maybe Devin Hester should be the next OC, he was the best return man in the history of the NFL.

 

Lavar, i dont care if you admit your wrong, keep defending your dumbshit idea it only makes you look more clueless. I can already sense a little dislike for Mitch, I hope you dont get a complex over him too.

 

 

My season tickets go for more then 10,000, fact. A single PSL in my section go for about 7,500 to 10,000. I own more than 1 seat, so yes Im sure I can sell mine fore more then 10,000. My friends used to pay 11,000 a year for seats in my section, just buying the single season seats. They stopped because they finally bought their own. So yes Lavar, Im sure.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Chitownhustla]

One thing I do know is that we have not had a winning season since Lovie Smith. You and others here were beside yourselves with the idea that not only was the 'wicked witch Smith' gone but FINALLY they were going to hire someone to cater to Cutler and his abilities. That did not pan out. Is that the organization's fault? Probably. Still, you were supportive of the unconventional idea. You even held out hope that at some point Cutler would prove himself worthy of the title; "Franchise Quarterback". Again you and many others were let down. I almost question your credibility like I highly doubt your new friend Chitown. You were once ok with risky picks and ideas but are now against them. I get it. 'Burn me once, shame on you...burn me twice...' and all that.

 

So, since you apparently have this all mapped out, who are your recommendations for HC or OC? Please enlighten me with what you think would be a "safe" choice to lead your "potential" Franchise QB and the Bears to the promised land?

 

*Edit* Because I was curious, I did some more reading up on this very idea. Take a look at the path Bill Belichick took and let's discuss. I think it relevant.

 

Lavar,

 

Can you show me where Bill was a career ST coach with no experience coaching defense or offense and got promoted straight to OC or DC?

[madlithuanian]

Alaska, if you were in LA, I could recommend a good shrink that'll help you get over the firing of Lovie Smith... It's time to move on.

 

I'm not sure where you question my credibility? Am I a professional football writer? No, I'm a guy on a fan board with a little more knowledge than average...n a good day at that. Honestly, as fans, what can we do when the team hires people? 2 options: support it or poo poo it. I hoped for the best w/ Trestman and Cutler. Yup, failed. I hoped for the best with Fox, made some progress, but ultimately needs to end. Fox is playing out a bit how I suspected. He'd be the guy to get us of the schnide...to gain some respectability, to grow the defense. He's pretty much done that. Thank you Doug Collins...I now want Phil Jackson to take over. Yeah, not sure if you caught my gambling analogy, but the idea to get risky is when you have nothing to lose. Like when we were putrid. Now that we are not putrid with a barren cupboard of talent and now that cupboard is getting filled...it's not time to go wacky. In finance, a guy about to retire doesn't put his entire 401K into sketchy overseas investments. He goes conservative. Now is not the time to go wacky.

 

I have no map. I am not good enough of an evaluator of pro coaching to pick our coaches. And that's a different thread. This was about forcing a square peg of STC into a round hole of OC. My thoughts of HC, OC, etc are looking at hoping Sean Payton walks from NO or cherry pick one of the OC minds from Philly. Or even give McDaniels a look to see if he's matured. I'm really talking HC here. I don't mind Toub in the conversation because I think he could be a very good CEO of the coaching staff. But, he'd need a great OC in w/ him and more often than not, those guys eventually bolt for a HC gig later. Which is why I'd prefer an offensive mind to lead our team. But, it's Pace's call. I'll support what he chooses until it looks like a fail. That's been my M.O. the entire time. You weren't around (and nor was I on this board) when Smith was first hired and I was all in. For quite a long time at that. You just got to know my ugly mug after Smith was on the decline, etc.

 

For 2 years Billicheck was all over the map when he first got into NFL coaching...O, ST...then in year 3 he started getting involved on D as a D assistant. From then out, he specialized and got his knowledge on D. (virtually from 1978 to 2000 barring the few years in Cleveland as HC) Eventually moving up to DC and then HC. He didn't start as an OC, became one of the best in the league, then switch to D, then go HC. Billichick's time as a receivers coach and work on ST for those first few formative years pales by comparison of what Toub has been as a STC for virtually the last 17 years. Billicheck was a D guru who became a successful HC. He didn't become an OC, then a HC after being a defensive guru for over a decade. Over the years, he's learned those offensive elements, but ultimately, he's had OC's to do the job. He just picks good ones and also got really lucky landing Tom Brady.

 

 

 

One thing I do know is that we have not had a winning season since Lovie Smith. You and others here were beside yourselves with the idea that not only was the 'wicked witch Smith' gone but FINALLY they were going to hire someone to cater to Cutler and his abilities. That did not pan out. Is that the organization's fault? Probably. Still, you were supportive of the unconventional idea. You even held out hope that at some point Cutler would prove himself worthy of the title; "Franchise Quarterback". Again you and many others were let down. I almost question your credibility like I highly doubt your new friend Chitown. You were once ok with risky picks and ideas but are now against them. I get it. 'Burn me once, shame on you...burn me twice...' and all that.

 

So, since you apparently have this all mapped out, who are your recommendations for HC or OC? Please enlighten me with what you think would be a "safe" choice to lead your "potential" Franchise QB and the Bears to the promised land?

 

*Edit* Because I was curious, I did some more reading up on this very idea. Take a look at the path Bill Belichick took and let's discuss. I think it relevant.

 

[killakrzydav]

This guy...i can't wait for the draft

[Alaskan Grizzly]

Alaska, if you were in LA, I could recommend a good shrink that'll help you get over the firing of Lovie Smith... It's time to move on.

 

I'm not sure where you question my credibility? Am I a professional football writer? No, I'm a guy on a fan board with a little more knowledge than average...n a good day at that. Honestly, as fans, what can we do when the team hires people? 2 options: support it or poo poo it. I hoped for the best w/ Trestman and Cutler. Yup, failed. I hoped for the best with Fox, made some progress, but ultimately needs to end. Fox is playing out a bit how I suspected. He'd be the guy to get us of the schnide...to gain some respectability, to grow the defense. He's pretty much done that. Thank you Doug Collins...I now want Phil Jackson to take over. Yeah, not sure if you caught my gambling analogy, but the idea to get risky is when you have nothing to lose. Like when we were putrid. Now that we are not putrid with a barren cupboard of talent and now that cupboard is getting filled...it's not time to go wacky. In finance, a guy about to retire doesn't put his entire 401K into sketchy overseas investments. He goes conservative. Now is not the time to go wacky.

 

I have no map. I am not good enough of an evaluator of pro coaching to pick our coaches. And that's a different thread. This was about forcing a square peg of STC into a round hole of OC. My thoughts of HC, OC, etc are looking at hoping Sean Payton walks from NO or cherry pick one of the OC minds from Philly. Or even give McDaniels a look to see if he's matured. I'm really talking HC here. I don't mind Toub in the conversation because I think he could be a very good CEO of the coaching staff. But, he'd need a great OC in w/ him and more often than not, those guys eventually bolt for a HC gig later. Which is why I'd prefer an offensive mind to lead our team. But, it's Pace's call. I'll support what he chooses until it looks like a fail. That's been my M.O. the entire time. You weren't around (and nor was I on this board) when Smith was first hired and I was all in. For quite a long time at that. You just got to know my ugly mug after Smith was on the decline, etc.

 

For 2 years Billicheck was all over the map when he first got into NFL coaching...O, ST...then in year 3 he started getting involved on D as a D assistant. From then out, he specialized and got his knowledge on D. (virtually from 1978 to 2000 barring the few years in Cleveland as HC) Eventually moving up to DC and then HC. He didn't start as an OC, became one of the best in the league, then switch to D, then go HC. Billichick's time as a receivers coach and work on ST for those first few formative years pales by comparison of what Toub has been as a STC for virtually the last 17 years. Billicheck was a D guru who became a successful HC. He didn't become an OC, then a HC after being a defensive guru for over a decade. Over the years, he's learned those offensive elements, but ultimately, he's had OC's to do the job. He just picks good ones and also got really lucky landing Tom Brady.

 

The more I 'talk' to you about this subject, the less I like. My 'analogy' of Smith was simply that. You have your cute little ones you like to pepper into the commentary and I have mine. They are different in how they illustrate the story but basically they are the same. Sorry if mine annoy you like yours do me.

 

I think we have gotten off the path and into the thistle on this matter. A lot of that is my doing because I got too hyper-focused on the Toub piece of the puzzle. Backing up a little, that was one piece to a muti-layered thought of a do-over going into next year. Again, in my opinion, to avoid total upheaval (ala 2013 when Trestman and company were hired) I feel the more prudent move would be to promote from within and make Fangio the HC with presumably Donatell the DC. For the last three years the one star, besides Howard, to the Bears has been the performance of the defense. Never mind the different pieces he's had over that time, Fangio somehow has managed to consistently build a top 10 worthy defense.

 

As Jason pointed out, and I agree, historically the Bears have NEVER been a dominant offense machine. We've tried various iterations of OC's and HC's with offense backgrounds only to be let down. I agree that Trubisky is the 'future' of our QB position (I'd stop short of labeling him the Franchise for now). And changing our team wholesale to focus on offense, at the risk of losing someone like Fangio, to me is risky...might even say fool-hardy.

 

Now the correlation I made with Belichick is that I noticed he got his start with Special Teams. At some point he was co-titled; 'defensive assistant' with Special Teams remaining as his primary title. To me, the only obvious difference between he and Toub (in that regard) is the title (and that Belichick followed the defensive side of the field). We really don't know where Toub's experience lies beyond Special Teams...at least on paper. We know he is good friends with and hangs around Andy Reid an awful lot, himself a pretty darn good offensive mind. And using the cliché 'birds a feather...' we can only presume he at least understands offense.

 

After I post my response to ChiTown (because I know he savors the chance to retort) I'll be done with this subject. Not because I'm giving up but mostly because I'm frankly done with it and said all I can. Toub or no, we wlll make some change going into next year. And like Killer says, once this season is over I'll be looking forward to next year's draft. Happy Thanksgiving.

 

[Alaskan Grizzly]

Hey Lavar,

 

Donald here, I prefer to be called El Presidente. Ill take being nicknamed Donald, at least he made a couple billion and became president. What has Lavar done? Other then get air time for spewing the most amount of bullshit Ive ever seen. Side note, not a fan of Donald so maybe we agree on something.....maybe we can be friends after all.

 

Getting back to your understanding of Football, I do question your total understanding of football with making the argument that Toub should be hired as the OC. Im now seeing that you cant handle being wrong. You will twist your argument just so you feel better about yourself. Toub COULD be an OC.........yeah Lavar, everyone knows anyone can do anything they set their little hearts too, look..... Donald became president. Doesnt mean its the right choice tho.

 

As for Cutler, I admitted I was wrong. He could never get over the hurdle. There are many reasons he never got to the franchise level QB I hoped he would. But Im not going to waste my time rehashing that with you, as there is no reasoning with you about anything related to Cutler. So Im glad you brought Cutler up, see I was man enough to admit I was wrong.......Are you man enough?

 

On to Mitch, where did I say he was the Messiah? The guy has thrown about 26 passes through 5 or 6 games. The only thing Ive said about ole Mitchy is that I think hiring Toub as the OC would be the dumbest move in the history of all dumbshit moves the Bears have ever done. I didnt say he COULDNT, just that its the dumbest idea ever brought up here in bearstalk. I would prefer an OC that has a proven track record of developing QB's, or even a guy like you mentioned Tony Romo, someone who studied the QB position and offense for his entire career. Hey come to think about it, maybe Devin Hester should be the next OC, he was the best return man in the history of the NFL.

 

Lavar, i dont care if you admit your wrong, keep defending your dumbshit idea it only makes you look more clueless. I can already sense a little dislike for Mitch, I hope you dont get a complex over him too.

 

 

My season tickets go for more then 10,000, fact. A single PSL in my section go for about 7,500 to 10,000. I own more than 1 seat, so yes Im sure I can sell mine fore more then 10,000. My friends used to pay 11,000 a year for seats in my section, just buying the single season seats. They stopped because they finally bought their own. So yes Lavar, Im sure.

 

Here you go. I WAS WRONG in engaging you on this matter. That's what you wanted and there you go.

 

Look, I have no issue with admitting that I'm wrong, if I'm shown that I am. You mistake (or mis-label) my "twisting" of the narrative to your dislike for it. I won't admit I'm wrong simply because your opinion is different than mine. As I've pointed out before, I have some credibility issues with you. You feel I have no understanding of football, good for you. Frankly, don't care. Funny you should say that and despite your comments to the contrary I have yet to see you say you were wrong about Cutler. Maybe I missed it but again...whatever.

 

This 'conversation' has drug out for far too long. And to the other posters, I apologize. Say what you will, because I know you will, and I'm 'moving on'.

 

 

 

[Chitownhustla]

Here you go. I WAS WRONG in engaging you on this matter. That's what you wanted and there you go.

 

Look, I have no issue with admitting that I'm wrong, if I'm shown that I am. You mistake (or mis-label) my "twisting" of the narrative to your dislike for it. I won't admit I'm wrong simply because your opinion is different than mine. As I've pointed out before, I have some credibility issues with you. You feel I have no understanding of football, good for you. Frankly, don't care. Funny you should say that and despite your comments to the contrary I have yet to see you say you were wrong about Cutler. Maybe I missed it but again...whatever.

 

This 'conversation' has drug out for far too long. And to the other posters, I apologize. Say what you will, because I know you will, and I'm 'moving on'.

 

1. Dont care if you dont want to admit you are wrong. I would be willing to bet you know deep down inside that hiring Toub as the OC would be a mistake.

 

 

2. My thoughts on Cutler were based on football logic. Surround a QB with top 10 talent with the right pieces and we could win. Pieces = OC, Oline and weapons. The Bears never were able to get those pieces all at the same time. The Bears and Cutler failed to reach the level they SHOULD have. If thinking putting the right pieces around a top 10 talent QB would result Wins loses my credibility with you so be it.

 

 

3. Last year after one of the shit hole games I stated that I cant defend Cutler anymore and that I was wrong. You responded to it. To your praise you did not rub it in too much. I figured you would have a field day with it. In the end we both lost....the Bears suck.

 

 

4. Your thoughts on Toub being hired as an OC are not based on football logic. The logic that since Toub is a great STC he could be a great OC is not logical in the NFL. Im sorry, that does not work in the NFL. It takes years of coaching to become an OC or DC. Toub has ONLY coached ST. There is a reason Toub has never even interviewed for an OC or DC position (doesnt that make you think for a second, he's interviewed for HC but not OC/DC), because he is no expert in offense or defense. He has only interviewed for a HC position. Most HC's in the NFL work their way to an OC or DC position in hopes to become a HC. One would think that if Toub wanted to be a HC bad enough he would have made the switch to one side of the ball or the other. He hasnt, he has made a name for himself as a ST guru and at some point he will get a HC shot. He will get a shot at being a HC because he can flat out coach and being a HC you need to be an organizer and you need to connect to the players because you need them to buy into your WAY. HC's dont need to be the best defensive or offensive minds, case in point Trestman. Trestman didnt fail because of X's and O's, he failed because he lost the team. Toub reminds me of Bruce Arians, a coach that can get guys to run through brick walls. Man I wish Emery didnt try to be the smartest guy in the room! Had he just hired Arians instead of Trestman we wouldn't be having this convo.

 

 

5. Thinking that Toub learned some offense from Reid is a reach. Toub is in charge of the entire ST, Reid is not sitting around teaching Toub offense. IF you want a Reid taught coach why not poach his OC or QB coach? Someone who clearly learned from Reid to coach his offense. This idea seems smarter then taking Reids STC to coach O or D. Would you take McDaniels from NE to coach the D?

 

6. The Cleveland Browns are trying to reinvent the wheel. They have failed miserably so they are trying your version of Toub to OC with bringing on a Baseball guy to turn it around. So far I would say its gotten worse. Sometimes you cant reinvent the wheel. Just find the right coaches and players, get everyone to buy in and the Wins stack up.

 

 

 

[madlithuanian]

The only thing we disagreed on here really was the idea of thinking somehow Toub would be a great choice as OC. I've never had issue with him being considered for the role of HC. Also, no issue with considering Fangio...or Donnatel. OR even Loggains. We don't know what's really happening in the secret rooms. Is Fox kiboshing everything? Is Loggains brilliant and won't be allowed to do anything? We just don't really know for certain. Based on comments from Tru...inadvertently he intimates Fox ain't letting them do much. I'm not even convinced Fangio is brilliant either. A good friend from SF swears he's only as good as his players. Who knows... The only thing I wish they would do is bounce Fox now, promote Fangio to HC and Donnatel to DC. Let Fangio decide what Loggains could do. And let it ride. Watching the lame duck is kind of pointless. To me, it's another mark on Pace. But, it's not damning. It's unfortunate. That said...

 

Have a Happy Thanksgiving!

 

 

 

The more I 'talk' to you about this subject, the less I like. My 'analogy' of Smith was simply that. You have your cute little ones you like to pepper into the commentary and I have mine. They are different in how they illustrate the story but basically they are the same. Sorry if mine annoy you like yours do me.

 

I think we have gotten off the path and into the thistle on this matter. A lot of that is my doing because I got too hyper-focused on the Toub piece of the puzzle. Backing up a little, that was one piece to a muti-layered thought of a do-over going into next year. Again, in my opinion, to avoid total upheaval (ala 2013 when Trestman and company were hired) I feel the more prudent move would be to promote from within and make Fangio the HC with presumably Donatell the DC. For the last three years the one star, besides Howard, to the Bears has been the performance of the defense. Never mind the different pieces he's had over that time, Fangio somehow has managed to consistently build a top 10 worthy defense.

 

As Jason pointed out, and I agree, historically the Bears have NEVER been a dominant offense machine. We've tried various iterations of OC's and HC's with offense backgrounds only to be let down. I agree that Trubisky is the 'future' of our QB position (I'd stop short of labeling him the Franchise for now). And changing our team wholesale to focus on offense, at the risk of losing someone like Fangio, to me is risky...might even say fool-hardy.

 

Now the correlation I made with Belichick is that I noticed he got his start with Special Teams. At some point he was co-titled; 'defensive assistant' with Special Teams remaining as his primary title. To me, the only obvious difference between he and Toub (in that regard) is the title (and that Belichick followed the defensive side of the field). We really don't know where Toub's experience lies beyond Special Teams...at least on paper. We know he is good friends with and hangs around Andy Reid an awful lot, himself a pretty darn good offensive mind. And using the cliché 'birds a feather...' we can only presume he at least understands offense.

 

After I post my response to ChiTown (because I know he savors the chance to retort) I'll be done with this subject. Not because I'm giving up but mostly because I'm frankly done with it and said all I can. Toub or no, we wlll make some change going into next year. And like Killer says, once this season is over I'll be looking forward to next year's draft. Happy Thanksgiving.

 

[jason]

Fair enough. Maybe it isn't quite a contradiction according the Hoyle. But it's a Catch 22. There is no evidence in either direction.

 

Regardless, your argument on "possibility" is illogical. It's a fools errand to argue just for argument's sake. I'm trying to live in some semblance of reality.

 

I commend your constitution for digging your heels in, but nor am I backing down from calling your STC to OC statement as nothing more than fantasy BS. I get you're upset with the trash we've dealt with n the past, and sometimes going outside the box can bring some positive results. More than likely it doesn't. And if I remember correctly, Money Ball didn't bring the A's a Series Championship...

 

All that said, your last line, bolded, might be the closest thing you will ever say admitting you are wrong. I'll take it.

 

I wasn't even trying to be right. The entire debate is based on a hypothetical that won't happen, so it can't be proven or disproven. But, like Moneyball, could yield results if the tight asses thought outside the box every once in a while. Last but not least, winning a World Series didn't happen for moneyball, but success was achieved and the game changed forever more. I'd settle for those two things and my beloved Bears. It's better than what we have experienced for quite some time.

[lemonej]

After seeing the shackles come off against the Lions and after failing to continue to attack the Packers in the 3rd quarter, shows me the reason why Elway showed Fox the door in Denver because he likes to play too conservative. Matt Hasselback who was at Tennessee when Loggans was OC there said early this season that he didn't know the Dowell Loggans that was calling all those running plays. He swears that he was a lot more innovative and creative in Tennessee. I believe that.

 

As for my head coaching candidates: Shaw at Stanford, I like Toub also and a wildcard with rumors that he may be on his way out at Texas A&M Kevin Sumlin

[Mongo3451]

After seeing the shackles come off against the Lions and after failing to continue to attack the Packers in the 3rd quarter, shows me the reason why Elway showed Fox the door in Denver because he likes to play too conservative. Matt Hasselback who was at Tennessee when Loggans was OC there said early this season that he didn't know the Dowell Loggans that was calling all those running plays. He swears that he was a lot more innovative and creative in Tennessee. I believe that.

 

As for my head coaching candidates: Shaw at Stanford, I like Toub also and a wildcard with rumors that he may be on his way out at Texas A&M Kevin Sumlin

I think the Fox Elway thing was mutual. Rumor was that Fox wanted to run and save Manning's arm and that Elway wanted to air it out. Kubiak comes in and does exactly what Fox intended and won the Superbowl. Today, there are rumblings out of Denver that Elway is a coach killer and has his hand in everything.

 

I'm gong to stay on record as wanting this staff back for one more season. If there is not a playoff caliber team, they all can go. Everyone knows it wasn't going to be this year anyway. And I completely agree with how they have handled Trubisky.

[lemonej]

I think the Fox Elway thing was mutual. Rumor was that Fox wanted to run and save Manning's arm and that Elway wanted to air it out. Kubiak comes in and does exactly what Fox intended and won the Superbowl. Today, there are rumblings out of Denver that Elway is a coach killer and has his hand in everything.

 

I'm gong to stay on record as wanting this staff back for one more season. If there is not a playoff caliber team, they all can go. Everyone knows it wasn't going to be this year anyway. And I completely agree with how they have handled Trubisky.

 

Mongo my friend I support your opinion about the staff so with that being said I watched First Take today and believe that Elway who has put together a Super Bowl participant 2 times in 6 years should get the benefit of the doubt but just like Beli.... he has made some drafting mistakes. In the case of this staff the head man has hand cuffed both his coordinators according to rumors which is why you heard the Fangio leaving rumblings last offseason. I personally could care less what a coach has to say during the week and prefer to see him have his team prepared at the begining of every game and I ask you does this staff do that?

[Mongo3451]

Mongo my friend I support your opinion about the staff so with that being said I watched First Take today and believe that Elway who has put together a Super Bowl participant 2 times in 6 years should get the benefit of the doubt but just like Beli.... he has made some drafting mistakes. In the case of this staff the head man has hand cuffed both his coordinators according to rumors which is why you heard the Fangio leaving rumblings last offseason. I personally could care less what a coach has to say during the week and prefer to see him have his team prepared at the begining of every game and I ask you does this staff do that?

I don't know that answer. The eye test tells me that we are playing ultra conservatively on both ends to keep the pressure off of the offense.