Howard traded to...

[ASHKUM BEAR]

41 minutes ago, AZ54 said:

I wish we'd seen some of Nall near the end of the season instead of Mizzell.  I still think he can find a spot on the roster either as the last TE/H-back or as our power back.  He's not nimble but is versatile enough as a receiver to offer more routes than Howard (FWIW his 3-cone drill time was sub-7sec and about 2 tenths faster than Howard).   At his size he might be able to provide some of the tough short yardage plays we need now that we're without Howard.  It's hard to know where Nall fits, if he does at all, based on a few preseason plays against lesser competition.  Mizzell looked bad in preseason and somehow he got playing time.   

What we know: 

Nagy kept a FB, Burton, and Howard last year so there was some preference for a power running game.  Moving on from Howard ast year didn't leave us many options but the FB was something of a luxury in final cuts.  

Nagy often use a 3rd OT so again he wanted to go big at times.  

Nagy was instrumental in recruiting Nall as a UDFA.  https://247sports.com/Article/Ryan-Nall-named-Chicago-Bears-most-exciting-UDFA-addition-in-2018-118748901/

"They didn't draft any running backs, they didn't sign any other free agent running backs, so they told me I'm going to be the only rookie running back coming into camp," Nall said on Rip City Mornings,via NBC Sports Northwest. "Obviously I visited there, so I know what kind of offense they're going to run. They all said they see me as their big back. Obviously, going into camp and going into rookie mini and fall camp, I've got to be able to make the roster, make the team, but that's their vision they saw in me.

"They want me to be that big back that they know [can come in] late in games and can pound the rock a couple times, open up the passing game, pass protection, third-down back—things like that. I think I really gravitated toward that."

Nagy and Pace let Daniel Brown leave for a vet-min type of deal. Potentially opening some roster space.

Nagy and Pace have not signed FB Michael Burton.  Another player who would likely only get a vet min deal.  They could still come to an agreement but it's clear this Burton is not a key part of the plan.  

Nall runs hills to get better.   https://twitter.com/samjohnsonPDX/status/1094055389014814720  (joking here)

 

What I think I know: 

I don't see us drafting a big RB as there aren't many, if any, who fit what Nagy wants to do. 

Tarik Cohen is nothing more than a part-time RB / slot WR.   His role won't change this year.  

RB Mike Davis is nothing more than a solid #3 RB to replace Mizzell, and is just good enough to give you a few games as a starter.  

We need to add two RBs to fill out the roster.   We could draft two RBs but keeping two rookies around learning a complex offense while at the same time adjusting to the NFL is a risk.  IMO that's not Pace's style.  Unless the second RB gets parked on the practice squad for year.   Or is Nall one of these two RBs we will rely on heading into training camp?  

Nice dig. I have a feeling Nall has a role this season. I know he is working on his speed and agility this offseason but I cannot find the link.  This is one write up that has me thinking Nall could be much more if used right. https://www.playerprofiler.com/article/ryan-nall-advanced-stats-metrics-analytics-profile. 

[Stinger226]

That's a good article.  I can him getting some reps there. Also I heard they were going to give reps to Coward at RG. Might as well use assets and move them around. 

[Connorbear]

11 hours ago, ASHKUM BEAR said:

Nice dig. I have a feeling Nall has a role this season. I know he is working on his speed and agility this offseason but I cannot find the link.  This is one write up that has me thinking Nall could be much more if used right. https://www.playerprofiler.com/article/ryan-nall-advanced-stats-metrics-analytics-profile. 

So there is no reason to draft a TE because we have one on the practice squad.  

Peace

[ASHKUM BEAR]

1 hour ago, Connorbear said:

So there is no reason to draft a TE because we have one on the practice squad.  

Peace

True, if the Bears put him in that role. Seems like Pace envisioned him as the big RB. I think making him the "joker" would be more fun. Line him up as RB, motion him to the TE/slot, back to FB, or out wide. 

[Connorbear]

1 hour ago, ASHKUM BEAR said:

True, if the Bears put him in that role. Seems like Pace envisioned him as the big RB. I think making him the "joker" would be more fun. Line him up as RB, motion him to the TE/slot, back to FB, or out wide. 

I think he would be perfect as a backup to Burton. 

Peace

[Alaskan Grizzly]

2 hours ago, Connorbear said:

I think he would be perfect as a backup to Burton. 

Peace

Where does Brauneker fit in all this?  He was signed to a new deal (for two years) just prior to FA.  That makes me wonder maybe they saw something in him they liked? He was used (not extensively) in place of Burton during the Eagles game.  

[ASHKUM BEAR]

5 hours ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

Where does Brauneker fit in all this?  He was signed to a new deal (for two years) just prior to FA.  That makes me wonder maybe they saw something in him they liked? He was used (not extensively) in place of Burton during the Eagles game.  

I would say the Y behind Shaheen. 

[Connorbear]

30 minutes ago, ASHKUM BEAR said:

I would say the Y behind Shaheen. 

Brauneker also is a key special teams player. 

Peace

 

[Alaskan Grizzly]

Saw this yesterday....

Good luck Jordan.  Truly a class act.  You will be missed. 

 

[AZ54]

Good breakdown of Jordan Howard's fit in Nagy's offense.  

 

 

[Alaskan Grizzly]

27 minutes ago, AZ54 said:

Good breakdown of Jordan Howard's fit in Nagy's offense.  

 

 

Not to be the devil’s advocate but one question he forgot to address; why would Philadelphia want Howard if Pedersen runs a very similar offense? One that he himself ran while the OC at KC before Nagy ascended to that role?  What will Pedersen do with him that Nagy wouldn’t or couldn’t?  Is it because he can’t catch as most here assumed?  Or is it because he can’t run inside zone from the gun?  Despite all this Howard still managed to accumulate over 900 yards on the ground. Why?  Because as the season wore on (and as many here expected would happen) the ‘passer friendly and faster field’ weather changed to the typical Chicago winter which allowed Howard lean on his skill set to become more productive.  A skill set I think Nagy should have been more willing to work with and not against.  Saying Davis will do better at what Howard didn’t is not fair especially since Davis has much less film and experience to draw from.  

And sorry, but Fox’s ineffectiveness on offense was not solely because he only used Howard in “predictable” plays but a lot of the blame had to be due to both Cutler and Glennons ineptitude and Trubisky being a rookie.  

[AZ54]

26 minutes ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

Not to be the devil’s advocate but one question he forgot to address; why would Philadelphia want Howard if Pedersen runs a very similar offense? One that he himself ran while the OC at KC before Nagy ascended to that role?  What will Pedersen do with him that Nagy wouldn’t or couldn’t?  Is it because he can’t catch as most here assumed?  Or is it because he can’t run inside zone from the gun?  Despite all this Howard still managed to accumulate over 900 yards on the ground. Why?  Because as the season wore on (and as many here expected would happen) the ‘passer friendly and faster field’ weather changed to the typical Chicago winter which allowed Howard lean on his skill set to become more productive.  A skill set I think Nagy should have been more willing to work with and not against.  Saying Davis will do better at what Howard didn’t is not fair especially since Davis has much less film and experience to draw from.  

And sorry, but Fox’s ineffectiveness on offense was not solely because he only used Howard in “predictable” plays but a lot of the blame had to be due to both Cutler and Glennons ineptitude and Trubisky being a rookie.  

For the same reason Pedersen wanted LeGarrette Blount?  I'm not good enough to breakdown differences between Pedersen and Nagy but I think it's fair to say that while there are strong similarities in both offenses maybe not everything is the same.  After just one season I think we already know Nagy is more of a gambler than Pedersen is.  How many times have the Eagles run Santa's Sleigh?   

Maybe it's not that Nagy couldn't use Howard, he proved that last year.  Rather as the guy said in the video breakdown, there is much to the offense that Nagy wants to run that he couldn't call or the plays just weren't effective when Howard was in.  All I know is Pace and Nagy were determined to get two things done this offseason.  One was finding a new kicker, the other was finding some new RBs.  This is the first time I can think of where Pace has intentionally forced himself into a spot where he must draft a player at a specific position.  Despite his limitations to let go of Howard, with the timing of it being after all the Combine and Pro Day workouts, means they are confident they can find a RB that fits the scheme better in Rd 3-5.   

[BearFan PHX]

3 hours ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

Not to be the devil’s advocate but one question he forgot to address; why would Philadelphia want Howard if Pedersen runs a very similar offense? One that he himself ran while the OC at KC before Nagy ascended to that role?  What will Pedersen do with him that Nagy wouldn’t or couldn’t?  Is it because he can’t catch as most here assumed?  Or is it because he can’t run inside zone from the gun?  Despite all this Howard still managed to accumulate over 900 yards on the ground. Why?  Because as the season wore on (and as many here expected would happen) the ‘passer friendly and faster field’ weather changed to the typical Chicago winter which allowed Howard lean on his skill set to become more productive.  A skill set I think Nagy should have been more willing to work with and not against.  Saying Davis will do better at what Howard didn’t is not fair especially since Davis has much less film and experience to draw from.  

And sorry, but Fox’s ineffectiveness on offense was not solely because he only used Howard in “predictable” plays but a lot of the blame had to be due to both Cutler and Glennons ineptitude and Trubisky being a rookie.  

I think the film here was very telling.

First off, I dunno what Pederson's running game is like, or what role he sees for Howard. I think we all agree Howard is a tough grinder, and he's a good player that has plenty of NFL football left in him.

I don't think he is saying Fox's lack of success was solely on his running game, in fact, he said the opposite. He said that Howard was successful within Fox's offense. And we know Howard got over 1,000 yards in that system.

I think Howard got fewer yards with Nagy because he fits Nagy's scheme poorly. Howard's the kind of back you give the ball to 20+ times a game, and that isn't Nagy's offense. You counter that Nagy should change his offense to use the skills Howard has. That makes sense if you only consider the running game, but the thesis of the video was that Nagy's preferred plays are the rock to his passing game's paper and scissors. They work together, and he doesnt want to change his PASSING game to one that would be better complimented by Howard.

In other words, he prefers to play to Trubisky's strengths rather than Howard's, and that makes sense.

I think we all liked Howard and wish him well. But between featuring Howard in a traditional offense, and the RPO that Nagy is building, I choose the new Nagy system.

I will not at all be surprised to see Howard gain 1,000+ yards in a season again, but I bet we will see a Super Bowl before he does.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

2 hours ago, AZ54 said:

For the same reason Pedersen wanted LeGarrette Blount?  I'm not good enough to breakdown differences between Pedersen and Nagy but I think it's fair to say that while there are strong similarities in both offenses maybe not everything is the same.  After just one season I think we already know Nagy is more of a gambler than Pedersen is.  How many times have the Eagles run Santa's Sleigh?   

To be fair, Pederson has been to and won a Super Bowl.  And he did it with Blount as a player.  The year prior to and after he did not.  Am I suggesting that Blount was the single reason for their appearance in the SB, no.  Just that as you point out,  Pederson perhaps wanted Howard as he wanted Blount.  And talking about risk, prior to Pederson running it how many had tried running the Philly Special?  Nagy didn’t invent gimmicky plays, he’s just evolving it.  

Actually I think what has made Nagy successful is that he makes watching (and playing) football fun.  My wife has always said if she was a coach she would always run trick plays because she likes to be ‘entertained’ and keep the other side guessing.  Because of that and the propensity of Nagy to do just that she really likes to watch Bears football.  Add that to having players jump on the bandwagon while they too are having fun makes for a good combination.  

But going back to the Howard discussion; at some point the gimmicky plays are not going to work...not all the time.  And that’s when a more traditional player like Howard will factor in.  I mean if Nagy can develop plays where defensive lineman can run in a TD or an OL can catch a TD pass, surely he could use a back like Howard? 

[Alaskan Grizzly]

10 hours ago, BearFan NYC said:

I will not at all be surprised to see Howard gain 1,000+ yards in a season again, but I bet we will see a Super Bowl before he does.

I’d almost be willing to take that bet but I also believe they both could be accomplished simultaneously. 

As an aside; the year that Blount played for Pederson was the fifth productive in his 9(?) year career; getting 766 on the ground.  (And that was with a pretty good RB in Ajayi on the team).  Blount has only surpassed 1,000 yards twice in his career with a total in the 6,000 yard range.  Howard has equalled half that in a third of the time.  So really, Pederson ended up with a better player in Howard.  

The point I was going for on Fox’s success on offense wasn’t about whether Howard did well in it, it was more the idea (or at least the accusation) that the Chicago offense wasn’t successful  because of Fox.  To me that was more due to the timing because of the QBs he had.  Cutler was at the end of his time in Chicago and had sucked, Glennon just plain sucked and Trubisky was a rookie who had a lot to learn.  By that, Fox’s offense was very one-dimensional (and predictable) because of Howard being as good as he was/is.  

 

 

[BearFan PHX]

Ill just add that the RPO isnt a gimmick or a trick play any more than having a strong running game that sets up play action is.

I disagree with you on this, Grizz, but with respect, because I usually like your posts!

[Alaskan Grizzly]

5 minutes ago, BearFan NYC said:

Ill just add that the RPO isnt a gimmick or a trick play any more than having a strong running game that sets up play action is.

I disagree with you on this, Grizz, but with respect, because I usually like your posts!

Thanks NYC, right back at ya.  

I agree that the RPO  itself isn’t a gimmick.  In fact we see more of it because it’s what more colleges are playing (or at least that’s the way I understand it) and makes it an easier transition to the NFL for QBs like Trubiksy.  It’s just some of the stuff that Nagy adds to it that are gimmicky; like having  Hicks run in a TD, or Sowell catching a TD pass or even Cohen throwing a TD pass.  

But a like I said earlier, a lot of this is what makes the game fun to watch and play.  

[Mongo3451]

13 hours ago, AZ54 said:

Good breakdown of Jordan Howard's fit in Nagy's offense.  

 

 

Completely agree with this assessment.

[AZ54]

13 hours ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

I’d almost be willing to take that bet but I also believe they both could be accomplished simultaneously. 

As an aside; the year that Blount played for Pederson was the fifth productive in his 9(?) year career; getting 766 on the ground.  (And that was with a pretty good RB in Ajayi on the team).  Blount has only surpassed 1,000 yards twice in his career with a total in the 6,000 yard range.  Howard has equalled half that in a third of the time.  So really, Pederson ended up with a better player in Howard.  

The point I was going for on Fox’s success on offense wasn’t about whether Howard did well in it, it was more the idea (or at least the accusation) that the Chicago offense wasn’t successful  because of Fox.  To me that was more due to the timing because of the QBs he had.  Cutler was at the end of his time in Chicago and had sucked, Glennon just plain sucked and Trubisky was a rookie who had a lot to learn.  By that, Fox’s offense was very one-dimensional (and predictable) because of Howard being as good as he was/is.  

 

 

Question for ya... knowing how Blount was used in Philly that season don't you think Nall can fill that role?   If the bar is finding a big RB who can get the tough yards, 700-800 on a season but we can do that for $500k vs.  $2mil (+6th Rd pick) then we might be in a better spot.  Nall is a more versatile athlete than Blount.  Whether or not he's a better player is yet to be decided.  

I noticed two things in the videos.  One, both Blount and Nall hurdle over tacklers.  Not that I'd ever advise any RB to do that but it's something I don't recall Howard doing (maybe I'm wrong).  For me it's just a sign of athleticism that Howard didn't have as much of.   

(FWIW I think Blount has the best lateral quickness/agility of the 3 RBs in this discussion) 

Two, there are but two highlights of Blount catching a pass.  In both cases he's static and facing back to the QB, which is usually how  Howard catches a football.  Nall is catching passes all over the field on short to intermediate routes, and he's doing it in stride.   The main reason this matters is that having a big RB who isn't a receiving threat doesn't appear to be a concern for Pedersen.  It seems to matter a great deal to Nagy.   

 

[Stinger226]

Anybody that is mad about the Howard trade just need to watch these tapes and it is all explained. The Sobel tape is excellent.  As  far as  watching tape on draftees,  Henderson and Williams seem to fit the scheme the best. More than Sanders and Montgomery .

[Alaskan Grizzly]

14 hours ago, AZ54 said:

Question for ya... knowing how Blount was used in Philly that season don't you think Nall can fill that role?   If the bar is finding a big RB who can get the tough yards, 700-800 on a season but we can do that for $500k vs.  $2mil (+6th Rd pick) then we might be in a better spot.  Nall is a more versatile athlete than Blount.  Whether or not he's a better player is yet to be decided.  

I noticed two things in the videos.  One, both Blount and Nall hurdle over tacklers.  Not that I'd ever advise any RB to do that but it's something I don't recall Howard doing (maybe I'm wrong).  For me it's just a sign of athleticism that Howard didn't have as much of.   

(FWIW I think Blount has the best lateral quickness/agility of the 3 RBs in this discussion) 

Two, there are but two highlights of Blount catching a pass.  In both cases he's static and facing back to the QB, which is usually how  Howard catches a football.  Nall is catching passes all over the field on short to intermediate routes, and he's doing it in stride.   The main reason this matters is that having a big RB who isn't a receiving threat doesn't appear to be a concern for Pedersen.  It seems to matter a great deal to Nagy.   

 

Well since you’re going to bring Nall into the discussion, and I’m glad you did, ‘yes’ I would certainly hope that he becomes a factor.  I was excited by the little I saw of him last year and asked about using him more then and again posed the question earlier this year.  You’ll get no argument from me on hoping he is someone we see in the backfield more this year.  He’s definitely a forgotten and overlooked piece to the puzzle.

As far as the comparison of Blount and Howard; not sure I got the point other than maybe seeing they aren’t all that different (minus the jumping).  So to the earlier point I agree with you that is why Pedersen wanted Howard.  Which to me again begs the question; if the Eagles could use him why couldn’t the Bears?  Maybe Nall in the wings is that answer (mixed in with Howard’s current value and end of contract looming).  

I think in an earlier series of posts there was discussion about how awesome it would be to see someone like Forte in Nagys offense.  Totally agree.  Nevertheless, something Forte was also good at was grinding out tough yards too (at least earlier on).  

*Edit: In looking more at the video for Nall I see that he ran a fair amount of inside zone with both the QB doing RPO from the gun AND while under center.  I know your earlier video knocked Howard for some of his inability to run inside zone from the gun.  But to be honest I didn’t see a lot of major differences in their playing style when it came to that.  Other than the blocking maybe being more effective Nall would look for that 0, 1 or 2 hole and go.  Howard’s forte was more the outside zone where he could follow the blockers and let the holes develop; especially in Fox’s time. 

[AZ54]

1 hour ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

Well since you’re going to bring Nall into the discussion, and I’m glad you did, ‘yes’ I would certainly hope that he becomes a factor.  I was excited by the little I saw of him last year and asked about using him more then and again posed the question earlier this year.  You’ll get no argument from me on hoping he is someone we see in the backfield more this year.  He’s definitely a forgotten and overlooked piece to the puzzle.

As far as the comparison of Blount and Howard; not sure I got the point other than maybe seeing they aren’t all that different (minus the jumping).  So to the earlier point I agree with you that is why Pedersen wanted Howard.  Which to me again begs the question; if the Eagles could use him why couldn’t the Bears?  Maybe Nall in the wings is that answer (mixed in with Howard’s current value and end of contract looming).  

I think in an earlier series of posts there was discussion about how awesome it would be to see someone like Forte in Nagys offense.  Totally agree.  Nevertheless, something Forte was also good at was grinding out tough yards too (at least earlier on).  

*Edit: In looking more at the video for Nall I see that he ran a fair amount of inside zone with both the QB doing RPO from the gun AND while under center.  I know your earlier video knocked Howard for some of his inability to run inside zone from the gun.  But to be honest I didn’t see a lot of major differences in their playing style when it came to that.  Other than the blocking maybe being more effective Nall would look for that 0, 1 or 2 hole and go.  Howard’s forte was more the outside zone where he could follow the blockers and let the holes develop; especially in Fox’s time. 

The main point in the Blount videos is that Doug Pedeson didn't care to use him much as a receiver.  In 2017 Blount had a total of 8 receptions so production from his big back in the passing game is not something Pederson is worried about.   If he were, he wouldn't gone out and signed Blount for a year.  Now he's got Jordan Howard, a somewhat similar big RB who can get some tough yards but who doesn't offer much in the passing game.   

People keep saying the Eagles run the same offense as we do so why can they get something out of Howard and we can't?  That's not the point and Nagy has already proven he can get production out of Howard.  It's just Nagy feels he can get more production from the entire offense with a RB who is more versatile than Howard.  Pederson has shown he's ok working with those limitations.    Even in the same offense there are preferences for which plays Nagy or Pederson want to call to attack a defense.   

[Stinger226]

I agree,  they like to use their RBs differently when running the offense. I am not sure why so many fans hang on to players like their part of their family. Nagy is 12-4 as a head coach.  I trust him to get better so have to trust what type of players he wants. 

We may not have the same record as last but could be a better team.