David Montgomery RB is the pick

[BearFan PHX]

Grizz, there is a huge difference between you and Jason. We can agree disagree whatever. People can be positive, negative whatever.

Jason is an arrogant know it all that is totally myopic in his view and completely closed minded. You and others on this board with whom I agree and disagree are nothing like that.

I love this page, and all the discussion, agree or not. but i sure do know a blowhard when I hear one.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

6 minutes ago, CrackerDog said:

Do you think Pace would’ve retained Lovie after his 10-6 season?  I would have but think Pace would have moved on.  Just wondering your thoughts.  

Fair question and a good one.  You’d think me being a Lovie-acolyte the answer would be obvious but...comparing his relationship with Fox I’d say he probably would have kept Fox if he had managed to turn the program around in 2-3 years like he’s done before. But he didn’t so off he went.  Thing is, Lovie stayed above .500 quite a bit more than he didn’t so I’d have to think Pace might have given him some sort of one year more and prove it deal.  

[Alaskan Grizzly]

12 minutes ago, BearFan NYC said:

Grizz, there is a huge difference between you and Jason. We can agree disagree whatever. People can be positive, negative whatever.

Jason is an arrogant know it all that is totally myopic in his view and completely closed minded. You and others on this board with whom I agree and disagree are nothing like that.

I love this page, and all the discussion, agree or not. but i sure do know a blowhard when I hear one.

Ok tomato, to-mah-to.   ?

but really, ‘myopic’ on a football talk site?   Lol....

[BearFan PHX]

yeah, Myopic, he's the new GM in Oakland...

 

[AZ54]

Nothing wrong with Jason saying he'd do things differently than what Pace has done.  He defends his opinions but y'all are being a little harsh.  I see zero chance if he were the GM in Oakland he'd have gotten rid of Mack and his favorite WR from Alabama in Cooper.  

[adam]

17 hours ago, jason said:

I hate it. It’s a bad move. And I don’t care what anyone says. The Bears had a similar RB, who was proven, but dumped him for pennies on the dollar. And probably because the management already knew who they wanted. So they purposely made a hole where there wasn’t one, and then filled it...maybe. That’s like having a sturdy wooden boat and punching a hole in it, watching water pour in, all just because you wanted to prove the patch kit you liked could do a better job.

 

AND they had to trade up to get him. This front office becomes enamored with specific players and gets nervous, which causes the trading up. It occurs far too much.

 

Trading up doesn't mean you lose the trade. If you go off draft trade value alone, we won the trade straight up:

The Bears gave up #87 (155pts), #162 (26.2pts) and a 4th in 2020 (42pts), which equals 223.

The Pats gave up #73 (225pts), #205 (9pts), which equals 234. 

So technically the Bears got the better of the deal by a 6th round pick. Also, consider that next year's draft capital is worth a round less than this year's. That was not even taken into consideration with these values, making the deal even better for the Bears.

 

I watched some more video of Montgomery, and he is nothing like Howard. Montgomery has the most broken tackles of any RB since they started recording the stat. That is insane. If you watch his tape, you will see why. This guy is not Howard 2.0.

[BearFan PHX]

27 minutes ago, adam said:

Trading up doesn't mean you lose the trade. If you go off draft trade value alone, we won the trade straight up:

The Bears gave up #87 (155pts), #162 (26.2pts) and a 4th in 2020 (42pts), which equals 223.

The Pats gave up #73 (225pts), #205 (9pts), which equals 234. 

So technically the Bears got the better of the deal by a 6th round pick. Also, consider that next year's draft capital is worth a round less than this year's. That was not even taken into consideration with these values, making the deal even better for the Bears.

 

I watched some more video of Montgomery, and he is nothing like Howard. Montgomery has the most broken tackles of any RB since they started recording the stat. That is insane. If you watch his tape, you will see why. This guy is not Howard 2.0.

I couldn t like this post more.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

1 hour ago, adam said:

The Bears gave up #87 (155pts), #162 (26.2pts) and a 4th in 2020 (42pts), which equals 223.

The Pats gave up #73 (225pts), #205 (9pts), which equals 234. 

So technically the Bears got the better of the deal by a 6th round pick. Also, consider that next year's draft capital is worth a round less than this year's. That was not even taken into consideration with these values, making the deal even better for the Bears.

Don’t you have to wait until the picks themselves play before you judge how well the draft went?  Sure the Bears may have done better value wise with the picks; all the picks could end up duds or unpolished gems.  

[BearFan PHX]

1 minute ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

Don’t you have to wait until the picks themselves play before you judge how well the draft went?  Sure the Bears may have done better value wise with the picks; all the picks could end up duds or unpolished gems.  

you DO have to wait to see how the draft worked out to see how good you are at making picks, but you can know immediately whether you got good value.

In other words, if youre buying a car, and you trade me $1,000 for $20,000 you definitely won that trade, even if you use the $20,000 to buy a really crappy car.

[jason]

20 hours ago, BearFan NYC said:

Grizz, there is a huge difference between you and Jason. We can agree disagree whatever. People can be positive, negative whatever.

Jason is an arrogant know it all that is totally myopic in his view and completely closed minded. You and others on this board with whom I agree and disagree are nothing like that.

I love this page, and all the discussion, agree or not. but i sure do know a blowhard when I hear one.

And you’re a dipshit crybaby who runs to moderators when things don’t go your way. I could tell you the sun is hot and you’d find issue because 10 years ago I removed an obviously political post that was against the rules. (Ironic: I agreed with the politics of it.)

The facts are that Howard didn’t fit perfectly, but he was a very good RB. The front office created a hole where there previously wasn’t one. Which forced their own hands into drafting a RB, one that Pace obviously loved so much he basically promised Montgomery it was going to happen beforehand. 

[jason]

17 hours ago, adam said:

Trading up doesn't mean you lose the trade. If you go off draft trade value alone, we won the trade straight up:

The Bears gave up #87 (155pts), #162 (26.2pts) and a 4th in 2020 (42pts), which equals 223.

The Pats gave up #73 (225pts), #205 (9pts), which equals 234. .

You’re right about the trade value, but trade volume is important as well. The Bears lost a pick. They already had limited picks. Since none of the picks are guaranteed, especially the later the round, it makes sense to have as many bullets in the gun as possible.

[BearFan PHX]

36 minutes ago, jason said:

And you’re a dipshit crybaby who runs to moderators when things don’t go your way. I could tell you the sun is hot and you’d find issue because 10 years ago I removed an obviously political post that was against the rules. (Ironic: I agreed with the politics of it.)

The facts are that Howard didn’t fit perfectly, but he was a very good RB. The front office created a hole where there previously wasn’t one. Which forced their own hands into drafting a RB, one that Pace obviously loved so much he basically promised Montgomery it was going to happen beforehand. 

Yes, it's true that 10 years ago, when you were a moderator for a short time you abused your power for political purposes and didnt remove what I wrote, but actually REWROTE IT in your own words to seem as if it came from me. Youre like a power hungry cop that got kicked off the force in your first year.

But that is just a symptom of who you are. Dont come at me because you cant stand that i criticized you on the merits of your post. I didnt say anything personal about you. It would be easy but I didnt.

But like I said, youre a blowhard. You're mid level intelligence with all the Dunning Kruger effect possible to fit in one person. Youve got a childish chip on your shoulder.

Pathetic.

[Stinger226]

46 minutes ago, jason said:

And you’re a dipshit crybaby who runs to moderators when things don’t go your way. I could tell you the sun is hot and you’d find issue because 10 years ago I removed an obviously political post that was against the rules. (Ironic: I agreed with the politics of it.)

The facts are that Howard didn’t fit perfectly, but he was a very good RB. The front office created a hole where there previously wasn’t one. Which forced their own hands into drafting a RB, one that Pace obviously loved so much he basically promised Montgomery it was going to happen beforehand. 

All of those actions are true, but they wanted to upgrade the position. The end of the year will be a  better to gauge that Monty is better and makes the team better. I get your points but Nagy is trying to instant his offense to the full capacity and felt with Howard he couldnt do that. After this year Howard would have walked anyways so #1 they got something for him, #2 He gets to advance his offense. The key here is this is what Nagy wants to do. He is the key to us being a better team, so he gets to drive the car no matter who else thinks he is not a good driver. 

[Stinger226]

11 minutes ago, BearFan NYC said:

Yes, it's true that 10 years ago, when you were a moderator for a short time you abused your power for political purposes and didnt remove what I wrote, but actually REWROTE IT in your own words to seem as if it came from me. Youre like a power hungry cop that got kicked off the force in your first year.

But that is just a symptom of who you are. Dont come at me because you cant stand that i criticized you on the merits of your post. I didnt say anything personal about you. It would be easy but I didnt.

But like I said, youre a blowhard. You're mid level intelligence with all the Dunning Kruger effect possible to fit in one person. Youve got a childish chip on your shoulder.

Pathetic.

Jason is fine, when you get passionate decisions your responses always isnt nice., I have butt heads with several people on here and everything is still all good.

[BearFan PHX]

To the point:

Howard and Montgomery are very different backs. Nagy wants a guy with Montgomery's skill set. Pace identified the guy, and got some value for Howard who wasn't going to be used anyway.

Had Howard been worth more, other teams would have bid up the price.

To argue in the year that Pace won GM of the year, and put together this amazing roster so quickly, that Pace is a moron because of Jordan Howard, who averaged 3.7 yards a carry is ridiculous vs. the expenditure of a THIRD round pick.

But then to put that argument into context of all the other negative "I am smarter than the Bears and everyone else" comments over and over again, you see that the guy is a real Skip Bayless. The negativity is one thing, but the arrogance makes it just SO cringe-worthy. It is hard to hold my tongue sometimes.

I have never felt that way about any other member, whether I agreed with them or disagreed with them on any given topic. And I know I'm not the only one that sees him this way either.

At any rate, Jason is now on record as being in camp Howard vs. camp Montgomery and we can see how they each perform over the next few seasons...

[adam]

1 hour ago, jason said:

You’re right about the trade value, but trade volume is important as well. The Bears lost a pick. They already had limited picks. Since none of the picks are guaranteed, especially the later the round, it makes sense to have as many bullets in the gun as possible.

True, I understand both sides. Seattle started with 5 picks, kept trading down and ended the draft with 10. However, how many of those 10 are actually going to help them, or help them more than the original 5, or 4 if they traded up. There are definitely two theories to drafting, more picks are better and higher picks are better. At the end of the day, neither matter. Picking the right player is the key. Cleveland has had more top 50 picks than any team in history over the past decade and have just started to turn things around due to picking the wrong player.

After free agency, we literally had one hole, and that was at RB. We got HHCD and Skrine to backfill the only other starting spots. Every other player after that point is a luxury, and that is why we went BPA in the 4th. 

I thought Philly's draft spoke volumes about Howard; Miles Sanders at #53 (2nd round) said a lot. A Philly Exec literally said: "Miles is a guy, he can play all three downs". So is Howard now relegated to short yardage and obvious rushing situations? Seems like it to me. 

 

Admin note - Please keep the personal attacks to yourselves - we can agree to disagree - everyone is entitled to their opinion regardless of how right or wrong they are or you think they are. It is ok to be critical of the team and of each other, just do it in a constructive manner. This team is in a place it hasn't been in a long time, let's embrace this period and keep an open mind. Bear Down!

[Alaskan Grizzly]

26 minutes ago, adam said:

We got HHCD and Skrine to backfill the only other starting spots.

Skrine is backfilling?  Who?  CB?  Thought he was (or will be) primary NB?

And put me in the ‘Howard camp’ with Jason.  I think we jettisoned him too early for too little. I don’t see the Sanders pick in Philly as much a threat to Howard as he’s (Howard) coming to the end of his contract and I think Philly is trying to build an assurance for the following year.  One of two things could happen for Howard, he lights it up and becomes real expensive or he doesn’t.  Either way better to have another back of potential substance ‘in case’.

Besides all that, who else is on Phillys staff at RB?  Smallwood?  Maybe???

[Mongo3451]

2 minutes ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

Skrine is backfilling?  Who?  CB?  Thought he was (or will be) primary NB?

And put me in the ‘Howard camp’ with Jason.  I think we jettisoned him too early for too little. I don’t see the Sanders pick in Philly as much a threat to Howard as he’s (Howard) coming to the end of his contract and I think Philly is trying to build an assurance for the following year.  One of two things could happen for Howard, he lights it up and becomes real expensive or he doesn’t.  Either way better to have another back of potential substance ‘in case’.

Besides all that, who else is on Phillys staff at RB?  Smallwood?  Maybe???

First off, I really like discussing football with Jason.  (Especially when I'm right ?)  Back to Jordan Howard.  He was a team guy until the end.  He worked on what they asked, never complained and went his way graciously.  Good organizations see that and reward exiting players to a good situation where they can continue and thrive. (Resulting in a little less return)  If I'm a current Bear and friend of Jordan, I'm respecting the hell out of my GM and coach over it.

[BearFan PHX]

27 minutes ago, Mongo3451 said:

First off, I really like discussing football with Jason.  (Especially when I'm right ?)  Back to Jordan Howard.  He was a team guy until the end.  He worked on what they asked, never complained and went his way graciously.  Good organizations see that and reward exiting players to a good situation where they can continue and thrive. (Resulting in a little less return)  If I'm a current Bear and friend of Jordan, I'm respecting the hell out of my GM and coach over it.

well said

[adam]

35 minutes ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

Skrine is backfilling?  Who?  CB?  Thought he was (or will be) primary NB?

And put me in the ‘Howard camp’ with Jason.  I think we jettisoned him too early for too little. I don’t see the Sanders pick in Philly as much a threat to Howard as he’s (Howard) coming to the end of his contract and I think Philly is trying to build an assurance for the following year.  One of two things could happen for Howard, he lights it up and becomes real expensive or he doesn’t.  Either way better to have another back of potential substance ‘in case’.

Besides all that, who else is on Phillys staff at RB?  Smallwood?  Maybe???

Sorry an Army term, I meant a replacement. He backfilled Callahan as HHCD backfilled Amos. The last "starter" hole was RB.

There has to be a little more to the Howard story than we know. I don't think he was happy with his role and I don't know if the coaching staff believed he was the right fit for what they were trying to do. That's not to say Howard is not a good RB. There have been rumors about him "not fitting" into the system since last year. So we don't really know what Nagy and the offense had to do to accommodate Howard's skill set or lack thereof. However, we will see if they are right this year. If not, we are screwed.

Philly has a whole bunch of different guys. Josh Adams, Corey Clement, and Smallwood are all on the roster with Howard. Now with Sanders too. So it will be interesting to see who is left standing after final cuts and if Howard is RB1 or RB2.

[AZ54]

Since I'm an alumni of Iowa State I've watched both of these RBs for the last 2-3 years.   I like both and each became a fan favorite for their respective teams.  The same traits that made Bears fans appreciate Howard will be on display with Montgomery and that will be obvious very early on in Montgomery's career.  In time I expect Montgomery to become a fan favorite in the same manner.  

[adam]

38 minutes ago, Mongo3451 said:

First off, I really like discussing football with Jason.  (Especially when I'm right ?)  Back to Jordan Howard.  He was a team guy until the end.  He worked on what they asked, never complained and went his way graciously.  Good organizations see that and reward exiting players to a good situation where they can continue and thrive. (Resulting in a little less return)  If I'm a current Bear and friend of Jordan, I'm respecting the hell out of my GM and coach over it.

I have no complaints about Howard, he was the lone bright spot on a terrible team in 2016 and 2017. It just seems like that was his ceiling and the team wanted a little more dynamic play out of a guy with that many touches. It will be interesting to see what Howard commands on the open market after this season.

As good as Howard was in 2017, 2018 was somewhat disappointing and was masked by how well the team played overall. I don't know if we could get by with the same stats if the defense wasn't so good. Howard was 22nd in YPG at 58. Only 3 players had over 175 carries and less than 4.0 YPC (David Johnson, Peyton Barber, and Howard) out of 20 RBs. His 3.7 YPC was good for 37th among qualified RB leaders. If you like advanced stats, using DVOA, Howard was 36th: https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/rb

So if the team feels like RB1 was a weak spot on the roster, and Montgomery is an upgrade there, I am all for it. 

 

[Alaskan Grizzly]

2 hours ago, Mongo3451 said:

Back to Jordan Howard.  He was a team guy until the end.  He worked on what they asked, never complained and went his way graciously.  Good organizations see that and reward exiting players to a good situation where they can continue and thrive. (Resulting in a little less return)  If I'm a current Bear and friend of Jordan, I'm respecting the hell out of my GM and coach over it.

Yes and fair enough....

So one more for the Montgomery camp?  Lol.

[Connorbear]

2 hours ago, adam said:

I have no complaints about Howard, he was the lone bright spot on a terrible team in 2016 and 2017. It just seems like that was his ceiling and the team wanted a little more dynamic play out of a guy with that many touches. It will be interesting to see what Howard commands on the open market after this season.

As good as Howard was in 2017, 2018 was somewhat disappointing and was masked by how well the team played overall. I don't know if we could get by with the same stats if the defense wasn't so good. Howard was 22nd in YPG at 58. Only 3 players had over 175 carries and less than 4.0 YPC (David Johnson, Peyton Barber, and Howard) out of 20 RBs. His 3.7 YPC was good for 37th among qualified RB leaders. If you like advanced stats, using DVOA, Howard was 36th: https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/rb

So if the team feels like RB1 was a weak spot on the roster, and Montgomery is an upgrade there, I am all for it. 

 

This 100%

Peace

[BearFan PHX]

I want to be clear. I really LIKE Howard. I think he gave his all and I totally wish him well.

But if I had to choose between him and Montgomery going forward, well I'd go with what Nagy and Pace think.