Pace's last year

[adam]

This is it. Foles and Graham? That's the answer. We get an upgrade with Quinn over Floyd, a slight downgrade at rotational ILB, and probably CB and S. Our TE room is still weak and we have no RG and our OT's suck. Adding Foles did nothing to improve QB unless you consider him an upgrade over Daniel.

I feel like this is it for Pace. He failed on every first-round pick outside of Smith and the jury is still out on him after that weird situation last year. I can see Smith being one of those players that retires young. White, Floyd, Trubisky, and Shaheen. Epic early draft failures. Then he gives up the remaining capital for Mack, which didn't win us anything. Now we are going to be stuck with an aging core with huge cap hits during a rebuild. 

If these were all-in moves, Pace is playing checkers while the rest of the NFL was playing chess. 

[Bill]

I'm not giving up on this team as constituded (ms) untill next year.  It is what it is and does not look like a winner at this place in time.  It's one and done for all of them.  And as a side note I just want to thank the NFL for not canceling the start of free agency and the new year.  With the world out of control and all the doom and glom it's nice to have something to take our minds off of it.  Gives me a reason to still care about sports for now.  And thanks to all you yahoos on here and be safe where ever you all are.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

29 minutes ago, adam said:

These were all-in moves, Pace is playing checkers while the rest of the NFL was playing chess. 

This was nearly the same conversation many of us had (and a lot of others in the football world) when Pace thought he pulled a fast one and traded up to get Mitch.  In the meantime; Lynch and the 49rs have been to a Super Bowl.  

[Alaskan Grizzly]

23 minutes ago, Bill said:

I'm not giving up on this team as constituded (ms) untill next year.  It is what it is and does not look like a winner at this place in time.  It's one and done for all of them.  And as a side note I just want to thank the NFL for not canceling the start of free agency and the new year.  With the world out of control and all the doom and glom it's nice to have something to take our minds off of it.  Gives me a reason to still care about sports for now.  And thanks to all you yahoos on here and be safe where ever you all are.

Same to you Bill and I totally agree.  Great distraction!  
 

For what it’s worth I’ve always been a simple football guy and love the ‘5 yards and a cloud is dust’ on offense and a hard-hitting, take away making defense.  I think we’re in for a treat for at least the defensive side next year.  

[Connorbear]

2 hours ago, adam said:

This is it. Foles and Graham? That's the answer. We get an upgrade with Quinn over Floyd, a slight downgrade at rotational ILB, and probably CB and S. Our TE room is still weak and we have no RG and our OT's suck. Adding Foles did nothing to improve QB unless you consider him an upgrade over Daniel.

I feel like this is it for Pace. He failed on every first-round pick outside of Smith and the jury is still out on him after that weird situation last year. I can see Smith being one of those players that retires young. White, Floyd, Trubisky, and Shaheen. Epic early draft failures. Then he gives up the remaining capital for Mack, which didn't win us anything. Now we are going to be stuck with an aging core with huge cap hits during a rebuild. 

If these were all-in moves, Pace is playing checkers while the rest of the NFL was playing chess. 

Off season moves have just started so this is not it. 

Peace

[adam]

42 minutes ago, Connorbear said:

Off season moves have just started so this is not it. 

Peace

Even after some contract mods, there is very little left to bring in anyone else. Quinn was it. The remainder of the guys will be depth. I believe Pace thinks TE and QB are fixed. So he will address OG, CB, and S with the 2nd round picks and hopefully address at least one of the positions with a one-year flyer free agent. Maybe he can get Vonn Bell or Tavon Wilson to play SS, Jimmy Smith for CB, Stefen Wisniewski, OG or maybe someone like Anthony Sherman, FB. 

[Bill]

4 hours ago, adam said:

This is it. Foles and Graham? That's the answer. We get an upgrade with Quinn over Floyd, a slight downgrade at rotational ILB, and probably CB and S. Our TE room is still weak and we have no RG and our OT's suck. Adding Foles did nothing to improve QB unless you consider him an upgrade over Daniel.

I feel like this is it for Pace. He failed on every first-round pick outside of Smith and the jury is still out on him after that weird situation last year. I can see Smith being one of those players that retires young. White, Floyd, Trubisky, and Shaheen. Epic early draft failures. Then he gives up the remaining capital for Mack, which didn't win us anything. Now we are going to be stuck with an aging core with huge cap hits during a rebuild. 

If these were all-in moves, Pace is playing checkers while the rest of the NFL was playing chess. 

I have to say.  White can not be blamed on Pace.  He never got a chance because of injuries.  Floyd was not an epic bust.  He just did not become the sack leader he should of.  He still became an average OLB and got picked up by another team on the same contract price he had with the Bears.  The jury is still out on Smith.  He's been good for most of his time here except for some unknown reason last year.  If we get the Smith of the two years before last year instead of the short time last year he's above average.  Trubisky, Shaheen yea they will go down as epic. At the time the Mack trade seemed like the icing on the cake, not only for Bears fans, but also for 95% of the NFL. If you look at all of the players other teams are poaching from us it seems he does OK filling out a roster.  The Graham pickup is a head scratcher.  Foles is to me an opps, we lost out on Bridgewater and thought Mariota and Keenum would  be there in the second tier of free agency.    Still, anything less then a deep run into the playoffs next year, will still be a failure and he should be shown the door along with Nagy. 

[Stinger226]

5 hours ago, adam said:

This is it. Foles and Graham? That's the answer. We get an upgrade with Quinn over Floyd, a slight downgrade at rotational ILB, and probably CB and S. Our TE room is still weak and we have no RG and our OT's suck. Adding Foles did nothing to improve QB unless you consider him an upgrade over Daniel.

I feel like this is it for Pace. He failed on every first-round pick outside of Smith and the jury is still out on him after that weird situation last year. I can see Smith being one of those players that retires young. White, Floyd, Trubisky, and Shaheen. Epic early draft failures. Then he gives up the remaining capital for Mack, which didn't win us anything. Now we are going to be stuck with an aging core with huge cap hits during a rebuild. 

If these were all-in moves, Pace is playing checkers while the rest of the NFL was playing chess. 

We're dismissing players that already have on the team. What if they think Bars is good enough to be  RG? What if they think tolliver or Tre Robinson is good to go at CB. they will be able to bring  second tier players at ILB and S . Let's see what the moves they finish up with. Its very simple, if we don't make the playoffs, their all done anyway.  Your job not on the relax a little and let play out. I'll try for an article about the Oline that someone wrote. It made a lot of sense with its opinion what needs to happen.  The OTs were terrible last year but if they can play at the level on 2018 they were both listed in top 30 tackles in the league.  Massie had to deal with an injury last year and Leno moved and had a child over that offseason.  Maybe that affected them quit a bit. The guy made the point that moving Daniels and Whitehair back and forth screwed them up and used PFF stats to prove it.  Your a smart guy, you can't have thought that we were going to be able replace the OTs this year no matter what we did. 

[AZ54]

5 hours ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

This was nearly the same conversation many of us had (and a lot of others in the football world) when Pace thought he pulled a fast one and traded up to get Mitch.  In the meantime; Lynch and the 49rs have been to a Super Bowl.  

...and all they got for it was to give up one future Hall of Fame player on the Dline and a bunch of chatter about how badly they needed to trade JimmyG to the Patriots and sign Brady.  FWIW they got the Superbowl on the strength of that defense and a running game.  

[AZ54]

5 hours ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

Same to you Bill and I totally agree.  Great distraction!  
 

For what it’s worth I’ve always been a simple football guy and love the ‘5 yards and a cloud is dust’ on offense and a hard-hitting, take away making defense.  I think we’re in for a treat for at least the defensive side next year.  

Get a veteran SS in there to compliment Ejack and those ILBs and we're in a very good spot even with Tolliver at CB.  We have enough to do that.  Would you add a year to Akiem Hicks contract and throw a guarantee at him of $15mil?  I would and I'm pretty we sure can find a way to drop his cap hit off the $11.8mil this year by at least 3 or more.  Extend Cordarelle Patterson for a year or two?  Likewise with ARob.  Cut Braunecker, Shaheen frees up $2mil and of course that money gets spent on low level replacements but it's a chance on someone else who can be more productive, someone who could hardly be less productive.  Trade Cohen for a 4th Rd pick?        None of it is big $$ but can give us enough to sign a FA SS and RG for depth and to challenge Bars for the position. 

One of the 2nd Rd picks is a trade back for sure and with 3 picks in Rd 2/3  and 5 picks on day 3.   Day 2 we can grab an OT, WR to replace Cohen, and CB.   Day 3 gets us a RB, TE, Edge, IOL, and Safety help.   I'm wondering if there is more confidence in the young TEs Horsted and Holtz than we know.   Not high expectations but enough to jettison a player like Braunecker, and possibly Burton.      

[Bill]

" I'm wondering if there is more confidence in the young TEs Horsted and Holtz than we know.   Not high expectations but enough to jettison a player like Braunecker, and possibly Burton."

I have to assume Pace has a much higher opinion on all of his players then we do.  That's why were sitting at home typing our opinion and he's getting a 7 figure salary for his.  Just saying.

s    

[Stinger226]

I think there is still a strong possibility we trade both picks back and pick up 2 extra picks in the top 100. OL, WR, SS and TE. Does everybody think we could get 4 for Cohen? I don't think so.  People who want a scat back could draft one in the 4th.

[AZ54]

3 hours ago, Bill said:

" I'm wondering if there is more confidence in the young TEs Horsted and Holtz than we know.   Not high expectations but enough to jettison a player like Braunecker, and possibly Burton."

I have to assume Pace has a much higher opinion on all of his players then we do.  That's why were sitting at home typing our opinion and he's getting a 7 figure salary for his.  Just saying.

s    

Doubtful.  He knows he has to fill out a roster and they won't all be Pro Bowl players.  He just signed a $15mil backup for his starting QB.  He cut Floyd immediately after signing Quinn.  I"m pretty sure he'd make other cuts if it were feasible (i.e. Leno) but we still have to field a team.  He built a top 5 defense and they might have been back in the top 5 last year without the injuries to key players.  Even with that our defense was 4th in points given up last year and 8th best in yards given up/game.  Quinn makes the pass D much better. 

Now about that offense and the running game.  Lots of coaches lost their jobs and were replaced with proven experienced coaches who hopefully can get a running game going to mitigate the risks at QB.  If Trubisky regains his form from the just the 2nd half of 2018 season we'll be ok.  That wasn't great but we won with it and nearly won a playoff game.  In 2019 Trubisky played as if he was still suffering from the two concussions on that FG kick.  

[Stinger226]

Wwe have been condemning every thing the last few days , let me remind everyone a few things  : 

This regime has got us a 12-4  and 8-8 season. 

We have ARob...Montgomery....Patterson....Cohen....Miller....Goldman....Hicks....Mack....Quinn....Smith....Trevathan....Fuller...EJAK. This is a good core to work from. We have a top 5 defense even with tolliver at CB.  The big question pressing for me is SS.  We will get 1 in FAgency and draft one. It doesn't matter if our backup ILB is bare. We can find another KLP cheaply.  

On O the biggest question is the Oline.  We will be going with Massie and Leno, if they play at 2018 level that will be good enough. Either Bars or a draft pick will man the RG position.  Daniel and Whitehair were not as good as 2018 but they are not bad players.  If we can bring in a IOL and OT th either backup or take over , the oline will be fine. Don't forget we have a new OL coach, I think that will matter. We're going to add a WR and RB and that can be done cheaply.  We are going to be good it's just whether 9-7  or 12-4  defines us and the QB play will determine that. We now 2 shots at getting that right.

[Mongo3451]

This year is the make or break trifecta.  Pace, Nagy and Mitch are tied together.  I don't see a scenario, other than playoffs that keep them safe.

[adam]

5 hours ago, Stinger226 said:

Wwe have been condemning every thing the last few days , let me remind everyone a few things  : 

This regime has got us a 12-4  and 8-8 season. 

We have ARob...Montgomery....Patterson....Cohen....Miller....Goldman....Hicks....Mack....Quinn....Smith....Trevathan....Fuller...EJAK. This is a good core to work from. We have a top 5 defense even with tolliver at CB.  The big question pressing for me is SS.  We will get 1 in FAgency and draft one. It doesn't matter if our backup ILB is bare. We can find another KLP cheaply.  

On O the biggest question is the Oline.  We will be going with Massie and Leno, if they play at 2018 level that will be good enough. Either Bars or a draft pick will man the RG position.  Daniel and Whitehair were not as good as 2018 but they are not bad players.  If we can bring in a IOL and OT th either backup or take over , the oline will be fine. Don't forget we have a new OL coach, I think that will matter. We're going to add a WR and RB and that can be done cheaply.  We are going to be good it's just whether 9-7  or 12-4  defines us and the QB play will determine that. We now 2 shots at getting that right.

Stinger, I look at it this way, we have added Quinn for Floyd, but still need CB and SS. On offense, we have no RG, and we went from either Burton or Shaheen to Graham. Burton is the 6th highest paid TE in the league (AV) and Graham will come in around 12-15th. So we are paying two TEs starter level money and neither are worth it. So the only logical move is to cut/trade Burton/Shaheen/Braunecker.  If you designated all of them as post-June 1 cuts, you could save $5.5M on the cap with $6.5M in dead cap. To me that's worth it. Then it makes sense to have Graham, Holtz, and Horsted as the 3x TEs. I would add Anthony Sherman as a FB to that mix. 

If you extend ARob, you can save about $5M on the cap to bring in a SS (Karl Joseph or Vonn Bell)

With the remaining cap you have to look at bring in a vet RG and a CB. It can be done.

I would say in all of this, the biggest factor for the Bears is how the other teams in the Division are doing. The Vikings traded Diggs, so there is no way that's not a downgrade and the Lions are in full rebuild mode trading everyone. So that leaves the Packers who are relatively the same team from last year. So we have a chance to pick up a game or two just by how the rest of the division is shaking out.

[dawhizz]

13 hours ago, Stinger226 said:

We're dismissing players that already have on the team. What if they think Bars is good enough to be  RG? What if they think tolliver or Tre Robinson is good to go at CB. they will be able to bring  second tier players at ILB and S . Let's see what the moves they finish up with. Its very simple, if we don't make the playoffs, their all done anyway.  Your job not on the relax a little and let play out. I'll try for an article about the Oline that someone wrote. It made a lot of sense with its opinion what needs to happen.  The OTs were terrible last year but if they can play at the level on 2018 they were both listed in top 30 tackles in the league.  Massie had to deal with an injury last year and Leno moved and had a child over that offseason.  Maybe that affected them quit a bit. The guy made the point that moving Daniels and Whitehair back and forth screwed them up and used PFF stats to prove it.  Your a smart guy, you can't have thought that we were going to be able replace the OTs this year no matter what we did. 

I'm not saying there's no way Toliver or Bars can start next year, but I don't see how this team can feel confident in them as starters at this point.  For Bars, he's an undrafted free agent who started one game last year (the last game), and only started because of injury.  Plus there is a different offensive coordinator and offensive line coach here now than was here then, so they have no institutional knowledge of how he can perform.  Tolvier has certainly made strides, but to trust him with the #2 CB role after two starts last year again seems less than ideal. 

[AZ54]

24 minutes ago, adam said:

Stinger, I look at it this way, we have added Quinn for Floyd, but still need CB and SS. On offense, we have no RG, and we went from either Burton or Shaheen to Graham. Burton is the 6th highest paid TE in the league (AV) and Graham will come in around 12-15th. So we are paying two TEs starter level money and neither are worth it. So the only logical move is to cut/trade Burton/Shaheen/Braunecker.  If you designated all of them as post-June 1 cuts, you could save $5.5M on the cap with $6.5M in dead cap. To me that's worth it. Then it makes sense to have Graham, Holtz, and Horsted as the 3x TEs. I would add Anthony Sherman as a FB to that mix. 

If you extend ARob, you can save about $5M on the cap to bring in a SS (Karl Joseph or Vonn Bell)

With the remaining cap you have to look at bring in a vet RG and a CB. It can be done.

I would say in all of this, the biggest factor for the Bears is how the other teams in the Division are doing. The Vikings traded Diggs, so there is no way that's not a downgrade and the Lions are in full rebuild mode trading everyone. So that leaves the Packers who are relatively the same team from last year. So we have a chance to pick up a game or two just by how the rest of the division is shaking out.

Packers lost Bulaga.  He's been fighting through injuries in recent years so on the downside of his career but he's been really good for them for years and they don't have a replacement on the roster.  I know they'll find someone else who can hold just as well the question is will they be flagged for it.  

[AZ54]

2 minutes ago, dawhizz said:

I'm not saying there's no way Toliver or Bars can start next year, but I don't see how this team can feel confident in them as starters at this point.  For Bars, he's an undrafted free agent who started one game last year (the last game), and only started because of injury.  Plus there is a different offensive coordinator and offensive line coach here now than was here then, so they have no institutional knowledge of how he can perform.  Tolvier has certainly made strides, but to trust him with the #2 CB role after two starts last year again seems less than ideal. 

Without the injury Bars was reportedly a 3rd Rd prospect.  If we had drafted him there I think there'd be more confidence in him.  Many are hoping we draft someone at RG in Rd 2/3/4 this year to fill the spot so it could be a similar skill player with some question marks.   Regardless I agree he needs good competition for the job.  

[dawhizz]

The one thing that worries me about this being the make or break year for Pace - He's already shown a willingness to trade away current and future draft picks to win now.  How much more likely is he to do that if his back is against the wall?  Don't want to leave the cupboard bare for the next guy.

[madlithuanian]

23 hours ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

Same to you Bill and I totally agree.  Great distraction!  
 

For what it’s worth I’ve always been a simple football guy and love the ‘5 yards and a cloud is dust’ on offense and a hard-hitting, take away making defense.  I think we’re in for a treat for at least the defensive side next year.  

Agreed!

[Alaskan Grizzly]

14 hours ago, AZ54 said:

Now about that offense and the running game.  Lots of coaches lost their jobs and were replaced with proven experienced coaches who hopefully can get a running game going to mitigate the risks at QB.  

The problem I have is that both DeFlip and Lazor were fired from their last jobs (DeFlip from his last two...).  That doesn't instill a lot of confidence in their being able to make much progress; I don't care how many times they worked with Foles in the past.  They may be "experienced" but I'm not sure what you mean when you say "proven".  

[BearFan PHX]

3 hours ago, dawhizz said:

The one thing that worries me about this being the make or break year for Pace - He's already shown a willingness to trade away current and future draft picks to win now.  How much more likely is he to do that if his back is against the wall?  Don't want to leave the cupboard bare for the next guy.

Ive wondered about this too. It was in my pre-Free Agency thread about who to cut or trade etc. A lot of the moves i mentioned have come to pass, even though people said they wouldnt

But I worry about this too. I hope that Mike McCaskey told him not to do anything like that. I even included a quote where McCaskey had signed off on the various trades that Pace made, so one assumes that to trade future picks he would need a green light.

But I surely dont know for sure. Its a real question, especially with their backs against the wall as you say.

[bradjock]

3 hours ago, BearFan NYC said:

Ive wondered about this too. It was in my pre-Free Agency thread about who to cut or trade etc. A lot of the moves i mentioned have come to pass, even though people said they wouldnt

But I worry about this too. I hope that Mike McCaskey told him not to do anything like that. I even included a quote where McCaskey had signed off on the various trades that Pace made, so one assumes that to trade future picks he would need a green light.

But I surely dont know for sure. Its a real question, especially with their backs against the wall as you say.

One thing is I don’t think we’ve traded away any 2021 draft picks yet.  Although I do worry about how much dead cap money we are pushing into future years.  We are definitely trying to win now. 

That being said, I really can’t get on board with “Paces last year.”  In 2018, he was the executive of the year.  In 2019, we finished 7 & 8 (I don’t count the Minnesota game).  We are better today than we were 3 days ago.  

[AZ54]

4 hours ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

The problem I have is that both DeFlip and Lazor were fired from their last jobs (DeFlip from his last two...).  That doesn't instill a lot of confidence in their being able to make much progress; I don't care how many times they worked with Foles in the past.  They may be "experienced" but I'm not sure what you mean when you say "proven".  

At some point along the line everybody coaching in the NFL was fired from a previous job....see Andy Reid.  That does not mean they didn't have success in their previous roles.  We have two key coaches on offense who have proven they can put together a good running game and they've done so across multiple seasons.   

https://www.chicagobears.com/team/coaches/bill-lazor

https://www.chicagobears.com/team/coaches/juan-castillo

"Lazor most recently served as the offensive coordinator with the Cincinnati Bengals from 2017-18 and as the quarterbacks coach in 2016. Under his leadership, the Bengals' offense in 2018 finished third in the NFL in red zone scoring at 71.1%. The Bengals rushing attack averaged 4.69 yards per carry, which was fourth in the AFC."

"Prior to Cincinnati Lazor spent two seasons as the offensive coordinator with the Miami Dolphins from 2014-15. In his first season in Miami, his rushing attack averaged 4.7 yards per attempt, ranking second in the NFL, led by Lamar Miller's 1,000-yard campaign. The Dolphins averaged 24.3 points per game and 350.1 yards per game, which was the franchise's most in both categories since 1995."

"Castillo most recently served as the offensive line coach and run game coordinator with the Buffalo Bills from 2017-18. Under his watch, the Bills' rushing attack ranked in the top 10 both seasons. Buffalo finished sixth in the NFL and second in the AFC with 126.1 yards per game in 2017 and fifth in the NFL with 124.0 yards per game on the ground in 2018.

Prior to Buffalo he spent four seasons with the Baltimore Ravens, serving as the run game coordinator in 2013 and offensive line coach from 2014-16. In 2015 Castillo guided an offensive line that helped produce a then-franchise-record 4,271 net passing yards and the second-most total net yards (5,749) in team history. In 2014, Castillo led an offensive line that allowed just 19 sacks, the second fewest in team history at the time, ranking behind only Denver (17) that year with the fewest in the NFL. From 2014-15 the Ravens allowed the fewest sacks in the NFL (43). He originally joined the team as a consultant prior to Super Bowl XLVII in January 2013."