Confused? Am I stupid

[Stinger226]

I listen to a ton of bears podcasts and read almost every article written on them , I'm bored, and so many of these bears people place CB as one of their important needs.  A lot of them are mocking a CB either as the first or second pick. 

My logic tells me that the bears are going all in on winning this year. As I look at needs, I have to look at who is already on the team. 

Tolliver, Burns, Robinson Xavier Crawford, Denmark, Fuller, Joseph, McManis, Skine, and Shelly.  They have a lot of capital invested in the position already. Knowing which ones are good or not are still a question but they have many options  

At S they have 5 , 1 star and a backup that might be okay. Burns.  Lucas is probably not a starter but a good depth player.  I am going to say S is a much more critical issue than CB. Also , I think Az suggested that the SS is going to be more valuable to the team. With a stout pass rush,  considering they will have to cover TEs and RBs, that position should be more valuable than the CB2 spot. I agree 

We need to upgrade the oline and add more speed to a bad offense whether Wr, TE or a RB. 

So why are all these experts keep picking a CB high? 

I DON'T GET IT 

TE is important but they have 9 on the team. So as much as I think they draft both a TE and a CB, I just don't see it until the last few rounds. 

 

 

 

[AZ54]

2 minutes ago, Stinger226 said:

I listen to a ton of bears podcasts and read almost every article written on them , I'm bored, and so many of these bears people place CB as one of their important needs.  A lot of them are mocking a CB either as the first or second pick. 

My logic tells me that the bears are going all in on winning this year. As I look at needs, I have to look at who is already on the team. 

Tolliver, Burns, Robinson Xavier Crawford, Denmark, Fuller, Joseph, McManis, Skine, and Shelly.  They have a lot of capital invested in the position already. Knowing which ones are good or not are still a question but they have many options  

At S they have 5 , 1 star and a backup that might be okay. Burns.  Lucas is probably not a starter but a good depth player.  I am going to say S is a much more critical issue than CB. Also , I think Az suggested that the SS is going to be more valuable to the team. With a stout pass rush,  considering they will have to cover TEs and RBs, that position should be more valuable than the CB2 spot. I agree 

We need to upgrade the oline and add more speed to a bad offense whether Wr, TE or a RB. 

So why are all these experts keep picking a CB high? 

I DON'T GET IT 

TE is important but they have 9 on the team. So as much as I think they draft both a TE and a CB, I just don't see it until the last few rounds. 

 

 

 

Artie Burns is a CB so add him to the top list.  Safety you were thinking of is Bush but he hasn't played well that I've seen.  He always looks lost on the field and is late reacting to plays.  For me SS is a big need but one that might still be filled via FA.  I don't see CB as critical because I think Toliver can provide similar performance as to what we got from Amukamara last year.   While that wasn't great we still had a good defense with him.  Plus Skrine and Shelly have experience on the outside so they can provide sort of a floor in terms of what we'll have outside.  I don't care if we draft a CB at 43 because the value certainly could be there but it's not mandatory.   

I agree that at TE the value doesn't match up with our need early in the draft unless they try to convert Claypool into a U TE.    Even that seems like a late 2nd/early 3rd Rd option.  

 

 

 

[dawhizz]

I know we have a lot of bodies at CB, but I personally have more confidence in Deon Bush as starting SS than I do any of the current CBs being #2 CB.  Plus, as people have noted, there are quality SSs out there in FA we could add after the draft, whereas I don't feel like there are any guys we could add that could step into the #2 CB spot.  Moreover, you are more likely to find a decent SS who could push for a starting spot late in the draft than a guy who can immediately slot in at #2 CB. 

[Mongo3451]

8 minutes ago, dawhizz said:

Plus, as people have noted, there are quality SSs out there in FA we could add after the draft, whereas I don't feel like there are any guys we could add that could step into the #2 CB spot.

Right on.  Starting caliber corners are never a bargain.  Safeties are a dime a dozen.  You never have enough good CB, EDGE and OL.

[Bill]

7 hours ago, Stinger226 said:

I listen to a ton of bears podcasts and read almost every article written on them , I'm bored, and so many of these bears people place CB as one of their important needs.  A lot of them are mocking a CB either as the first or second pick. 

My logic tells me that the bears are going all in on winning this year. As I look at needs, I have to look at who is already on the team. 

Tolliver, Burns, Robinson Xavier Crawford, Denmark, Fuller, Joseph, McManis, Skine, and Shelly.  They have a lot of capital invested in the position already. Knowing which ones are good or not are still a question but they have many options  

At S they have 5 , 1 star and a backup that might be okay. Burns.  Lucas is probably not a starter but a good depth player.  I am going to say S is a much more critical issue than CB. Also , I think Az suggested that the SS is going to be more valuable to the team. With a stout pass rush,  considering they will have to cover TEs and RBs, that position should be more valuable than the CB2 spot. I agree 

We need to upgrade the oline and add more speed to a bad offense whether Wr, TE or a RB. 

So why are all these experts keep picking a CB high? 

I DON'T GET IT 

TE is important but they have 9 on the team. So as much as I think they draft both a TE and a CB, I just don't see it until the last few rounds. 

 

 

 

I also am confused.  With more and more time to read everything it seems like tons more mock drafts and big boards with opinions that I never had time to read before or there are just that many more.  As to the 2nd question I don't know you well enough to say.

[BearFan PHX]

I'm stupid too. I know I am a broken record, but I can't imagine that they're doing nothing about OLT. To me, it was the biggest weakness on our team last year and a huge part of the offensive failures at QB and in the running game.

I keep thinking they must have some sort of plan. But the writers are talking about WRs and TEs and CBs and I feel like I'm living in a bizarro world. I keep thinking that Pace has identified this position for his draft pick or a later Free Agent signing (or both) and is playing chess over our heads (wishful thinking) but I don't understand how the writers are all missing it too.

[adam]

For the 2nd round picks, if you could upgrade two positions to improve the roster from the current player, where would that be?

CB2 - Toliver
SS - Bush
RG - Ifedi
TE - Graham
WR3 - Wims

I believe these are the consensus 5 positions that keep getting mentioned. I have seen Edge, but that doesn't make sense with Quinn on the roster. TE doesn't make sense with Graham and Ifedi has more starting experience then the rest of the other guys combined, so I think RG is out.  So it comes down to BPA at CB, SS, and WR3. One wild card is OT. If you can get an upgrade over Leno or Massie, you do it.

[BearFan PHX]

hey Adam,

Please tell me why you didnt just put Leno and Massie on the regular list? I dont mean it to be fighty - Im really asking. In olight of my comment just abovr yours Im clearly not seeing something. I know you and I have agreed that OLT is a need, so is it the assumption that a starter wont be available when our pick comes, but those other positions do have legit starters?

I feel like Im missing something, and so I am legitimately asking for your thought process.

 

[Alaskan Grizzly]

16 minutes ago, adam said:

For the 2nd round picks, if you could upgrade two positions to improve the roster from the current player, where would that be?

 

SS is the first position of need.  Disagree that because Graham is on the list TE isn’t higher on the list.  Unless they find a another younger TE through FA or trade (like OJ Howard) they still need a talented player to develop.  We might be lucky to get one or two years (tops) out of Graham.  The way this offense needs to run (especially if Trubisky is expected to run it) with more intermediate level receivers, you practically need to double your talent in the mid-range.  TEs and big WRs fit that niche. 
 

And as much as it pains me to admit (this is where Jason magically reappears) Tackle is high in the list (shout out to NYC). I know Pace feels he’s set with Massie and Leno but he’s wrong.   

[dawhizz]

17 minutes ago, BearFan NYC said:

hey Adam,

Please tell me why you didnt just put Leno and Massie on the regular list? I dont mean it to be fighty - Im really asking. In olight of my comment just abovr yours Im clearly not seeing something. I know you and I have agreed that OLT is a need, so is it the assumption that a starter wont be available when our pick comes, but those other positions do have legit starters?

I feel like Im missing something, and so I am legitimately asking for your thought process.

 

I can't speak for anyone else's thought process, but my thinking is:

1) Yes, Massie and Leno were bad last year, but so was literally every other Bears offensive lineman. 

2) At least with Massie and Leno, you have a history of several years of solid play before last year (I think Leno was a Pro Bowl alternate the previous year). 

3) Given a track record of pretty solid play, the overall downturn of the offensive line, and the money invested in those guys, they seem like candidates to regain prior form under a new offensive line coach.

4) I think it's unlikely that absent injury or complete abject failure a rookie 2nd round OT starts for this team over Leno or Massie next year.

I would not describe myself as against draft a rookie OL in the second, and it might even make sense to get someone maybe you could put at OG first if you want to give that player some seasoning while giving Leno and Massie a chance to re-prove themselves.  But looking at the draft options likely to be there in the 2nd round, who can step in and play LT given the fact that you're ;likely going to have an abbreviated offseason?  There are some really young guys (Austin Jackson, Josh Jones, Isaiah Wilson) who are probably going to need some technique work before throwing them out there.  Maybe Lucas Niang or Robert Hunt fit, but they figure to be RTs only.  Are Saahdiq Charles or Prince Tega Wanogho a reach there?  Those are the only potential LTs coming from a bigger program that I might trust at that spot to potentially start, unless I'm missing someone.

[Stinger226]

29 minutes ago, BearFan NYC said:

33 minutes ago, adam said:

For the 2nd round picks, if you could upgrade two positions to improve the roster from the current player, where would that be?

CB2 - Toliver
SS - Bush
RG - Ifedi
TE - Graham
WR3 - Wims

I believe these are the consensus 5 positions that keep getting mentioned. I have seen Edge, but that doesn't make sense with Quinn on the roster. TE doesn't make sense with Graham and Ifedi has more starting experience then the rest of the other guys combined, so I think RG is out.  So it comes down to BPA at CB, SS, and WR3. One wild card is OT. If you can get an upgrade over Leno or Massie, you do it.

I believe with them moving down in the draft , listing who you think they end up with  , is going to be tough.  So players later in the draft, I would say they end up with Devin Duvenary at WR.  I think they like Robert Hunt and Hopkins. if they pick up Howard that changes their TE option. Also met with Duggar and A. Davis with a trade back safety option. 

[BearFan PHX]

Yes I understand some of those arguments for sure. Ill take em one at a time.

1) Leno was REALLY bad, and I think, if youd have average OLT play last year, we would have gone to the playoffs. I think a huge part of what is so bad about Trubisky was the Leno's guy was in his lap. Also we couldnt run to the left at all. And that was important after we coudlnt run to the right LOL What I sw wasnt just Leno getting beat, I saw him double teaming a guy with the guard while his guy cam unblocked WAY too often. Its the sort of mistake that pee wee players are able to fix.

2) I didn't think Leno was that great when he was a ProBowl alternate either, but obviously his 2018 was better than his 2019. I think if we had the 15th pick int he first round, we'd alkmost HAVE to pick an OLT if it wasnt a franchise QB still available.

3) this is the one I think is clouding all the writers' points of view. Who cares. Sunk money is sunk money. It's already gone. I dont think you should compound the problem by continuing to start a disaster at OLT.

4) This is a very good argument - probably the best one. I cant say that Prince Wanagho is worth the 43rd pick or could start. Im hoping Josh Jones falls, or someone even better. Maybe for a free agent like Jason Peters as a 2nd round guy grows, or a trade to Washington for Williams. Both are probably too expensive, but the window is closing for those players too this year.

Im not sold that a safety or CB at 43 is gonna be a world beater either though.

Thanks for the answer dawhizz!

[Stinger226]

39 minutes ago, BearFan NYC said:

hey Adam,

Please tell me why you didnt just put Leno and Massie on the regular list? I dont mean it to be fighty - Im really asking. In olight of my comment just abovr yours Im clearly not seeing something. I know you and I have agreed that OLT is a need, so is it the assumption that a starter wont be available when our pick comes, but those other positions do have legit starters?

I feel like Im missing something, and so I am legitimately asking for your thought process.

 

I think with the money we are paying the 2 OTs that only a top 5 OT would have the chance of starting this yr and we're not into play for them. We discussed the next few options and they all will need a year ot to to develop.  Josh Jones is the one that may drop to us that could replace them this year.  I think they will be trading back that puts us out of his reach. I , like you , think they both needed to be replaced but just don't think that happens this yr. I think they draft a OT and OG later in the draft , try to develop them and keep our top couple of picks for potential starters. 

[BearFan PHX]

3 hours ago, Stinger226 said:

I think with the money we are paying the 2 OTs that only a top 5 OT would have the chance of starting this yr and we're not into play for them. We discussed the next few options and they all will need a year ot to to develop.  Josh Jones is the one that may drop to us that could replace them this year.  I think they will be trading back that puts us out of his reach. I , like you , think they both needed to be replaced but just don't think that happens this yr. I think they draft a OT and OG later in the draft , try to develop them and keep our top couple of picks for potential starters. 

Some of that I understand and agree with. The money part I dont. That money is gone either way. If you can afford to replace Leno, as long as you arent gonna keep him on your cap going forward, then you do it.

The other argument, that the players available to us at 43 arent starter worthy unless someone falls, I sadly agree with. I do hope Jones falls of course, or someone else. I'd probably love to see Becton fall on the drug test, and see us package both 2nd rounders to get him. Of course that comes with it's own problems, as I assume we will also add a CB, safety or WR in the 2nd round too.

I really thought Pace would bring in a free agent too, and maybe he still will - there are two very good short term players available in Peters and Williams, and their options are shrinking daily. But each would be hard to fit under the cap without cutting Patterson or something. Might be worth it, but Patterson brings value too, and Peters is no long term answer.

I just have visions of Foles being killed by people running through Leno. I dont really know if Nagy's scheme is brilliant and next level or a gimmick, because we haven't had a chance to see it. We blame Trubisky a lot for it, and fairly, he hasnt shown much evidence to use in his defense either, but mostly, he was being pressured from the left on almost every throw.

I think that if you find the 50th best QB in the world, and give him 5 consistent seconds of protection, he looks like a hall of famer. With 2 seconds or less, they mostly all look terrible.

[Bill]

3 hours ago, Stinger226 said:

I think with the money we are paying the 2 OTs that only a top 5 OT would have the chance of starting this yr and we're not into play for them. We discussed the next few options and they all will need a year ot to to develop.  Josh Jones is the one that may drop to us that could replace them this year.  I think they will be trading back that puts us out of his reach. I , like you , think they both needed to be replaced but just don't think that happens this yr. I think they draft a OT and OG later in the draft , try to develop them and keep our top couple of picks for potential starters. 

 I'm not sold that either of the two new additions are the answer for the IOL.  While both are young and former first round picks they were let go when they could of been signed for not much more than the vet min if I'm correct.  In the case of Efedi, he signed for the vet min.  From a team that had started him for most of the past three years.  To me that is a large red flag.

If they have some lineman graded as BPA when they pick at whatever pick they end up with I'm good with that.  If that is an OT that they move to guard for a year or two or a center-guard does not matter.  They need to start stocking up OL with any pick.

[Mongo3451]

5 hours ago, Stinger226 said:

I think with the money we are paying the 2 OTs that only a top 5 OT would have the chance of starting this yr and we're not into play for them. We discussed the next few options and they all will need a year ot to to develop.  Josh Jones is the one that may drop to us that could replace them this year.  I think they will be trading back that puts us out of his reach. I , like you , think they both needed to be replaced but just don't think that happens this yr. I think they draft a OT and OG later in the draft , try to develop them and keep our top couple of picks for potential starters. 

I completely hate this line of thought and I usually agree with you.  We should draft an OT high in this draft regardless of any money or performance argument.  I don't care if the new OT doesn't start.  That means Leno and Massie stepped up.  If they don't step up, I don't want a late round development project coming in to be our hero.  That's the mindset that got us Leno in the first place.  He does not have the talent to make up for a bad day.(a high quality pick does)  In addition, we need to build for a future without our current duds.

[adam]

7 hours ago, BearFan NYC said:

hey Adam,

Please tell me why you didnt just put Leno and Massie on the regular list? I dont mean it to be fighty - Im really asking. In olight of my comment just abovr yours Im clearly not seeing something. I know you and I have agreed that OLT is a need, so is it the assumption that a starter wont be available when our pick comes, but those other positions do have legit starters?

I feel like Im missing something, and so I am legitimately asking for your thought process.

 

Good point, both OT's should be on there, however, with the potentially impacted offseason, can a rookie OT come in and do as good (or bad) of a job as Leno or Massie with a new QB and definitely a new RG? We will see. It is definitely going to be an interesting Friday night. 

[BearFan PHX]

27 minutes ago, adam said:

Good point, both OT's should be on there, however, with the potentially impacted offseason, can a rookie OT come in and do as good (or bad) of a job as Leno or Massie with a new QB and definitely a new RG? We will see. It is definitely going to be an interesting Friday night. 

It's a fair point, but I'm not sure Leno is any better. If I KNEW that Leno would be identical to last year again, then Id put anyone there and it couldnt be any worse.

[Stinger226]

I agree on Leno being replaced but just don't think the bears will do that. Any OT in our area to pick will need to sit a year to grow.  Now if a Josh Jones drops, he might be able to replace Leno.  The problem here is Pace going to trust a rookie over Leno in a yr he has to win? He looks at Leno and sees his career, you look at last year.  Different perspectives. 

[Stinger226]

I was listening to the Score with Bryan Perez from NBC sports.  The key to who they draft will be determined by who drops in the draft that gives them big value. . For example, he stated the If a Mims or Raegor drops, they should take them otherwise the WRs- available doesn't give you value at where they pick. 

He's pushing that if Jalen Hurts is available, we should take him. I don't agree with that. 

Also thinks one of our 2nd round picks will be Chinn/ SS. That is the value he should go at according to him and the bears like him a lot. 

So any number of positions are up to be drafted at our spots . He said RB, ILB and D line are not in play there. 

 

[BearFan PHX]

2 hours ago, Stinger226 said:

I agree on Leno being replaced but just don't think the bears will do that. Any OT in our area to pick will need to sit a year to grow.  Now if a Josh Jones drops, he might be able to replace Leno.  The problem here is Pace going to trust a rookie over Leno in a yr he has to win? He looks at Leno and sees his career, you look at last year.  Different perspectives. 

Well I look at last year, and you look at his career, but we dont yet really know what Pace is seeing or thinking. By opening day we will of course, but for now, it still remains to be seen.

Your points about rookies after Jones is well taken though.

[Stinger226]

I have 2 opinions in my perspective.  What I want and what I think the Bears will do.  I'm with you on replacing him but depends on who is available at 43. If they move back, probably won't find a OT to replace him this year.  If a OT falls to us good enough to replace him this year.  , I would take him. Leno on his best day is just average. I'm just not sure that what pace would do. The answer will come to us on Friday. As you have suggested before Peters would be better.  Now that he won't find a home until after the draft he maybe  will be cheap enough.  We have 9.3 mil in  Cap space.  That will come into play.  If we end up drafting a TE somewhere we can cut Braunnecker and Shaheen that's 3.5 million.  These are iffy scenarios  , I think I still win  our bet by default. 

[Alaskan Grizzly]

3 hours ago, Stinger226 said:

He's pushing that if Jalen Hurts is available, we should take him. I don't agree with that. 

 

This will come as a shock to you but I agree with Perez on this.  In my mind he’s better than Trubisky is or will be.  I see a mix of Prescott and Watson and several of us liked both coming out of college...yet neither plays for the Bears.  This would be a safe save for Paces career (IMHO).  
 

With his stock starting to rise right now the Bears would be wise to get him in the second...if they can. 

[AZ54]

5 minutes ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

This will come as a shock to you but I agree with Perez on this.  In my mind he’s better than Trubisky is or will be.  I see a mix of Prescott and Watson and several of us liked both coming out of college...yet neither plays for the Bears.  This would be a safe save for Paces career (IMHO).  
 

With his stock starting to rise right now the Bears would be wise to get him in the second...if they can. 

He can make the throws but he still struggles to read defenses.  I do not understand why that will improve when it didn't under two of the best college coaches?  This isn't a Trubisky situation where he only played one year.  I do agree that Prescott is a decent comp for him, Watson exhibited far more leadership as a starter in college. 

[BearFan PHX]

1 hour ago, Stinger226 said:

I have 2 opinions in my perspective.  What I want and what I think the Bears will do.  I'm with you on replacing him but depends on who is available at 43. If they move back, probably won't find a OT to replace him this year.  If a OT falls to us good enough to replace him this year.  , I would take him. Leno on his best day is just average. I'm just not sure that what pace would do. The answer will come to us on Friday. As you have suggested before Peters would be better.  Now that he won't find a home until after the draft he maybe  will be cheap enough.  We have 9.3 mil in  Cap space.  That will come into play.  If we end up drafting a TE somewhere we can cut Braunnecker and Shaheen that's 3.5 million.  These are iffy scenarios  , I think I still win  our bet by default. 

makes sense - we will see of course.