Bears sign Andy Dalton per the score. Foles 2.0

[Mongo3451]

28 minutes ago, adam said:

I felt pretty good, even without Goldman playing. So this year, with even marginally better QB play, and basically the same team with some slight upgrades across the board, we may actually be a better team overall. On offense, the O-Line play during the loss streak was brutal, that has been addressed. Cohen was lost so the team was going to CPat way too much. Cohen is back, they added Williams, who is probably the best RB2 the team has ever had, and they Nagy is unable to hand off to CPat on 3rd and 1 for a loss of 3 anymore.

The offense should definitely be better, on paper.  My question is, who will call the plays?  Lazor will stick to the script, while Nagy lies in bed masturbating over ways to have a WR snap the ball and catch a TD.

Honestly, you can't say enough about Mooney and letl in year two.  Aaron is Arob.  Montgomery should be an automatic 1200 yd, 10 TD performer and Williams and Cohen provide depth and versatility.  Draft an OL high while getting Daniels back provides strength and depth.  

Needs:  QB, OL, WR.  I'm still all in for building the base for a new QB next year, so we can definitely fill 2 of 3 needs early in the draft with premium players.  Draft the QB from Stanford to be a long term backup.  Go all in for QB next year.

[Bill]

On 1/23/2021 at 6:03 PM, ASHKUM BEAR said:

Pass. The Bears need to draft QBs until they get it right.  You do not trade, there is a reason they want to part with him.  

 

5 hours ago, adam said:

Bill, so before last season, what did you think of the team?

I felt pretty good, even without Goldman playing. So this year, with even marginally better QB play, and basically the same team with some slight upgrades across the board, we may actually be a better team overall. On offense, the O-Line play during the loss streak was brutal, that has been addressed. Cohen was lost so the team was going to CPat way too much. Cohen is back, they added Williams, who is probably the best RB2 the team has ever had, and they Nagy is unable to hand off to CPat on 3rd and 1 for a loss of 3 anymore.

On defense, they lost Fuller, which is huge, but gained a few pieces and have Goldman back. So with 3 picks in the top 100 for the first time in a while, they should be able to bring in 3 starters from the draft. 

I thought after 2018 they had all the pieces pretty much.  2019 showed to me that the QB was not going to work, 2020 I had some hope with Foles at least providing some comp. and good back-up.  The team seemed to be good but no depth at important positions and a suspect OF line.  My first choice this year would be start building the OF and DEF lines.  A few playmakers on Off. and some back field depth.  Don't trade up for a QB unless one of the top five fall to around 15.  Maybe in 2nd or third.  I do believe pace has done a good job filling in the roster before the draft.  And I'm perfectly willing to go with Dalton and Foles this year if they draft a rookie qb mid rounds not 6th or 7th.  All in all I think this team is better now than last year.  And I don't buy that pace has to get the QB set to stay on mindset.  Not in just one year with not much to work with.  I think Pace has a better shot of staying by rebuilding the roster this year in the draft.  Then selling the farm to get Wilson or a rookie.  But what do I know.  I'm just an old retired fart who would to see a QB like Wilson on the bars before I die.  Even if the team still ends up with the same record.  Would be nice to see great QB play once.  Have watched lots of great D.  

[ParkerBear7]

12 hours ago, adam said:

So why would the Bengals hold onto him that long? So you are going to risk passing on Foles, then not drafting a QB, to hope that the Bengals will release Dalton and hope he will sign with you? Come on. For one, that is way too many unknowns to deal with. Second, if the Bears did that, Dalton would've had all the leverage. So again, there is no way they were waiting on the chance to sign Dalton over trading for Foles when they did.

Most logical answer is Cincy wanted to protect themselves through the draft in case 1. some weird injury or personal issue happened to Burrow and they couldn’t risk drafting him or 2. another team offered an unbelievable trade for the first pick that they couldn’t resist!   
 

Pace should have been aware of this situation and could have waited until after the draft to pick up a veteran QB or even made a trade with the Bengals for Dalton then; but he had already traded for Foles.  Either way I’m not convinced any other team was calling Jax about Foles who was injured most 2019 and just signed a decent contract in the previous offseason.
 

I would have preferred a Mitch vs Andy QB competition last year while having a 4th rounder this year.

It’s a moot point and just hoping Pace is able to draft a QB and at least one OT, ( I prefer two), that could start immediately!  Imagine, having two top tier OT’s as bookends and what that could do for the current QB and the offensive as a whole. Not to mention the  benefits of sustaining drives and scoring more points would do for the defense?

 

 

[Stinger226]

8 hours ago, ParkerBear7 said:

Most logical answer is Cincy wanted to protect themselves through the draft in case 1. some weird injury or personal issue happened to Burrow and they couldn’t risk drafting him or 2. another team offered an unbelievable trade for the first pick that they couldn’t resist!   
 

Pace should have been aware of this situation and could have waited until after the draft to pick up a veteran QB or even made a trade with the Bengals for Dalton then; but he had already traded for Foles.  Either way I’m not convinced any other team was calling Jax about Foles who was injured most 2019 and just signed a decent contract in the previous offseason.
 

I would have preferred a Mitch vs Andy QB competition last year while having a 4th rounder this year.

It’s a moot point and just hoping Pace is able to draft a QB and at least one OT, ( I prefer two), that could start immediately!  Imagine, having two top tier OT’s as bookends and what that could do for the current QB and the offensive as a whole. Not to mention the  benefits of sustaining drives and scoring more points would do for the defense?

 

 

Pace always goes into FAgency with a plan, I think they may have tried to trade for Dalton, but at the beginning of FA, the cost was to high. If he would have waited to address the QB until May, he would have been killed by the media so he just went with plan A, or plan B .

[Lucky Luciano]

i would use the first and second round picks on offensive tackles. forget moving up or drafting a qb this year that high.

we CAN'T keep drafting the same position players year after year and ignore the offensive line. pick up a skill position player or defensive lineman in the third if they need to or go free agent in this regard. but do NOT neglect the offensive tackles this year. next year you can go for the qb you need but at least give him a line to protect him when he gets here.

[adam]

3 minutes ago, Lucky Luciano said:

i would use the first and second round picks on offensive tackles. forget moving up or drafting a qb this year that high.

we CAN'T keep drafting the same position players year after year and ignore the offensive line. pick up a skill position player or defensive lineman in the third if they need to or go free agent in this regard. but do NOT neglect the offensive tackles this year. next year you can go for the qb you need but at least give him a line to protect him when he gets here.

I would love to draft OT's back to back and anchor the O-Line for the next decade, but the reality it you have to take what the draft gives you and it would be very unlikely that the best player available when the Bears draft is an OT. So do you just take one anyway, try to trade down, or draft BPA in another need area?

[Mongo3451]

5 minutes ago, adam said:

I would love to draft OT's back to back and anchor the O-Line for the next decade, but the reality it you have to take what the draft gives you and it would be very unlikely that the best player available when the Bears draft is an OT. So do you just take one anyway, try to trade down, or draft BPA in another need area?

Deepest year in recent history for OL.  Plus, they historically don't rank highly on BPA.  They simply make the BPA's better.  I'm all in on building both fronts.  Since the D is pretty close, it's OL early.  Doubt we do it though.

[ParkerBear7]

17 hours ago, Stinger226 said:

Pace always goes into FAgency with a plan, I think they may have tried to trade for Dalton, but at the beginning of FA, the cost was to high. If he would have waited to address the QB until May, he would have been killed by the media so he just went with plan A, or plan B .

Dalton was cut on April 30 just days after the 2020 draft.

[Stinger226]

7 hours ago, ParkerBear7 said:

Dalton was cut on April 30 just days after the 2020 draft.

The trade was on March 18th the first day of the new year which is the legal date for the start of FA, they allow negotiations  the week before. Bridgwater, Mariota, Brady and Rivers were already gone before we activated the trade. Dalton was still with the Bengals, so if we would have waited until he was released, we could have have been shut out on adding a QB because we did not know if he would be released. 

[adam]

1 hour ago, Stinger226 said:

The trade was on March 18th the first day of the new year which is the legal date for the start of FA, they allow negotiations  the week before. Bridgwater, Mariota, Brady and Rivers were already gone before we activated the trade. Dalton was still with the Bengals, so if we would have waited until he was released, we could have have been shut out on adding a QB because we did not know if he would be released. 

This has been my point all along. It is nice to go back and rewrite history, but with the unknowns of COVID at the time of free agency and the draft, the Foles move was probably the safest bet. 

[Lucky Luciano]

23 hours ago, adam said:

I would love to draft OT's back to back and anchor the O-Line for the next decade, but the reality it you have to take what the draft gives you and it would be very unlikely that the best player available when the Bears draft is an OT. So do you just take one anyway, try to trade down, or draft BPA in another need area?

i don't agree with this anymore. that may work if you have a well rounded team and are trying to improve existing positions that at least play at an nfl level of competence.

when was the last time the bears drafted an offensive tackle that was all-pro or gone to multiple pro-bowls? the 80's? that is nearly 40 years ago!

the skill players (or best available player on the board) are only as good as your line allows them to be. simple as that.

yet year after year after year we draft the SAME position players over and over again like wr, te, rb and even quarterback occasionally (when we don't focus on the defensive side of the ball in these rounds) and expect them to live up to their skill set and hype. all the while, what moves the football, what allows these skill players to thrive in the job they were drafted to do? it is the offensive line. yet they are an afterthought to this franchise and have been for decades.

do the research and if your scouts are not up to the task to find the best nfl tackles on the board then hire more scouts or someone else to do it. if that prospect doesn't rate that high in the draft order trade down or draft him anyway until you find the players who CAN play at a high level in the nfl.

once drafted he will need a minimum of two years to evaluate his skill set. during those two years draft MORE tackles in the lower rounds to groom either as replacements (a gem in the rough) or good utility backups. if after the evaluation of your higher round picks determines the player will never be a top starter in the nfl, draft another one in the first three rounds again until that player is on your roster.

[Stinger226]

Its hard to say the exact value of any player but many mock drafts list, Darrisaw--Jenkins--Cosmi--Vera Tucker as back of the end first round picks. At 20 all of them could be there. WR-OT-CB are the three most talked about as fitting as a first round pick. QB is a high need but taking a 2nd day QB prospect in the first round would be a bad choice. At that spot in the draft:

CB- Horn__Stokes__Newsome   all or one will be there at 20

WR-Toney__Marshall__Bateman all of them should be there at 20

OT-Darrisaw__Jenkins__Cosmi all should be there at 20

So how does the Bears rate them in order of value. All are at positions of need. I think they will prioritize O in the draft so WR or OT will be the pick. The WR position is real deep and you could get a starter in the 3rd round so would they jump on that? OTs value starts to go down quickly after the first 5 with Mayfield  and Radunz being next in line. I think OT should be the pick. I like Teven Jenkins that some have rated the 2nd best T in the draft. He has everything plus a mean streak which would give this OLine some grit. So for me its, 1) OT  2)  WR and 3) CB in that order. What if someone like a Devonte Smith/WR drops? I have heard because of his lack of high end speed and slim body, he may be the surprise by dropping. 

 

[adam]

4 hours ago, Lucky Luciano said:

i don't agree with this anymore. that may work if you have a well rounded team and are trying to improve existing positions that at least play at an nfl level of competence.

when was the last time the bears drafted an offensive tackle that was all-pro or gone to multiple pro-bowls? the 80's? that is nearly 40 years ago!

the skill players (or best available player on the board) are only as good as your line allows them to be. simple as that.

yet year after year after year we draft the SAME position players over and over again like wr, te, rb and even quarterback occasionally (when we don't focus on the defensive side of the ball in these rounds) and expect them to live up to their skill set and hype. all the while, what moves the football, what allows these skill players to thrive in the job they were drafted to do? it is the offensive line. yet they are an afterthought to this franchise and have been for decades.

do the research and if your scouts are not up to the task to find the best nfl tackles on the board then hire more scouts or someone else to do it. if that prospect doesn't rate that high in the draft order trade down or draft him anyway until you find the players who CAN play at a high level in the nfl.

once drafted he will need a minimum of two years to evaluate his skill set. during those two years draft MORE tackles in the lower rounds to groom either as replacements (a gem in the rough) or good utility backups. if after the evaluation of your higher round picks determines the player will never be a top starter in the nfl, draft another one in the first three rounds again until that player is on your roster.

BPA is also very subjective, every team has its own BPA, and every team values most players differently, so it is literally a crapshoot. However, if you just say we are taking back-to-back OTs regardless of who is there when we pick you will more than likely get burnt and significantly overdraft at least once. Same for any position. 

Draft capital is very similar to salary cap as there is a finite amount every year. Can you afford to overpay for Massie which forces you to cut Fuller? That is literally how the draft plays out. If you go early on a player and they are a bust, it is like a bad contract that will be felt for a few years. If you whiff on a 5th rounder, no biggie, that's like a one-year deal that won't kill you. 

[adam]

30 minutes ago, Stinger226 said:

Its hard to say the exact value of any player but many mock drafts list, Darrisaw--Jenkins--Cosmi--Vera Tucker as back of the end first round picks. At 20 all of them could be there. WR-OT-CB are the three most talked about as fitting as a first round pick. QB is a high need but taking a 2nd day QB prospect in the first round would be a bad choice. At that spot in the draft:

CB- Horn__Stokes__Newsome   all or one will be there at 20

WR-Toney__Marshall__Bateman all of them should be there at 20

OT-Darrisaw__Jenkins__Cosmi all should be there at 20

So how does the Bears rate them in order of value. All are at positions of need. I think they will prioritize O in the draft so WR or OT will be the pick. The WR position is real deep and you could get a starter in the 3rd round so would they jump on that? OTs value starts to go down quickly after the first 5 with Mayfield  and Radunz being next in line. I think OT should be the pick. I like Teven Jenkins that some have rated the 2nd best T in the draft. He has everything plus a mean streak which would give this OLine some grit. So for me its, 1) OT  2)  WR and 3) CB in that order. What if someone like a Devonte Smith/WR drops? I have heard because of his lack of high end speed and slim body, he may be the surprise by dropping. 

 

I would love to move back 6-8 slots, pick up another 3rd rounder, (CLE 26 and 91 for CHI 20), and still pick one of those guys. That would give us 26, 52, 83, and 91. 

[BearFan PHX]

57 minutes ago, adam said:

Draft capital is very similar to salary cap as there is a finite amount every year. Can you afford to overpay for Massie which forces you to cut Fuller? That is literally how the draft plays out. If you go early on a player and they are a bust, it is like a bad contract that will be felt for a few years. If you whiff on a 5th rounder, no biggie, that's like a one-year deal that won't kill you. 

totally agree with your moneyball point of view.

[Stinger226]

for that reason, I wouldnt mind if we trade out of round 1 and get some extra picks, better lane for Pace to pick in without his reputation of screwing up first round picks.

[BearFan PHX]

43 minutes ago, Stinger226 said:

for that reason, I wouldnt mind if we trade out of round 1 and get some extra picks, better lane for Pace to pick in without his reputation of screwing up first round picks.

in general, given an average distribution of talent in a given draft, and given an average distribution of needs on a given team, this makes sense. Trading down gives you more players. You could for example draft two players for one position, buying insurance that one of them might pan out.

Of course there is game changing talent available in the top of the first round every year that really cant be paralleled with other players either.

And then there are need positions, like QB, where you need to have a guy that's one of the best 15 in the world to have a realistic shot at a Super Bowl. If you already have a Pat Mahomes, then trading down is often a very good strategy.

and of course, when good players are falling because of positional needs over the previous ten picks, then you dont want to trade down, but to grab that guy when you can.

So in general, as a rule, you're probably right. But in specific, I suppose it depends on each situation.

If it was always good to trade down, then no one would ever agree to your trade, because theyd be trading up, and would need to think they were winning too.

So I guess in the history of the NFL, every trade down trade ever made was accompanied by a trade up trade as well?

[Mongo3451]

42 minutes ago, BearFan NYC said:

So I guess in the history of the NFL, every trade down trade ever made was accompanied by a trade up trade as well?

Lol, good math.  This year is deep with our needs, so I don't mind trading out of the first if we could gain a couple extra picks in the 2nd and 3rd.  Here's an example.  I traded 3 times to get out of the first.

[BearFan PHX]

34 minutes ago, Mongo3451 said:

Lol, good math.  This year is deep with our needs, so I don't mind trading out of the first if we could gain a couple extra picks in the 2nd and 3rd.  Here's an example.  I traded 3 times to get out of the first

.

I'd love to see those bookend tackles, and I wouldnt be too upset that Nagy and Pace wont be the ones picking the QB of the future. But that said, if we can get any of the top 5 QBs, and it costs us this years 1st and next years 1st to do it, plus maybe a 3rd or something, I'd be down to do that too. Not becasue I trust Pace to pick the best out of the 5, but because I think any of the five are worth it, and we need a QB.

[50england50]

The Bears have given away too much draft capital over the last few years. I would like to see a different approach. I wouldn’t mind drafting out of the 1st round and picking up extra picks for this and next year. 
If we were able to get a couple of 2nd round picks next year this would give capital for that draft. 
The only position I’m interested in this year  is OT. If we could get 2 and 1 pans out that great. Even if we picked a OT in the 2nd and 3rd round I would be amazed they wouldn’t be an upgrade on Leno and Ifredi.