Fields compared to other QBs

[Alaskan Grizzly]

Here’s something to ponder (saw this on a YouTube short today - will try to link it).  Detroit leads the NFL (so far) in total points (140) and has the most total yards (1,747).  All with Jared Goff who is third in the NFL with 1,126 passing yards and tied for the lead with 11 TDs thrown.  
 

 

[adam]

10 minutes ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

Here’s something to ponder (saw this on a YouTube short today - will try to link it).  Detroit leads the NFL (so far) in total points (140) and has the most total yards (1,747).  All with Jared Goff who is third in the NFL with 1,126 passing yards and tied for the lead with 11 TDs thrown.  
 

 

Goff looks much better in this system as he has cut down on his INTs, which is huge for him. He has already thrown for 4600 yds twice, and 3 of his seasons would be Bears franchise records. So it is not like Goff was some terrible QB before going to DET.  His TD to INT in DET is 30-11. His career passer rating is 91.9. He has always been an above average QB that would throw a bad INT every now and then.

Looking at his career stats, nothing relates to Fields in any way if you are trying to make that comparison.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

1 hour ago, adam said:

Looking at his career stats, nothing relates to Fields in any way if you are trying to make that comparison

Just sayin.  Most would have written Goff off regardless of his past stats.  Just yesterday I (sorta) compared Fields to Stafford and highlighted he has a Super Bowl win to his accomplishments. It’s possible it was a one time deal but it also proves If in the right system, any QB can succeed.  Just ask Trent Dilfer, Joe Flacco, Nick Foles or even Rex Grossman.  Who didn’t win a super bowl but certainly got there while playing “in the right system (balance)”.  I think Justin can too if given the chance and a better overall supporting cast. 

[AZ54]

On 10/4/2022 at 5:07 PM, Alaskan Grizzly said:

Just sayin.  Most would have written Goff off regardless of his past stats.  Just yesterday I (sorta) compared Fields to Stafford and highlighted he has a Super Bowl win to his accomplishments. It’s possible it was a one time deal but it also proves If in the right system, any QB can succeed.  Just ask Trent Dilfer, Joe Flacco, Nick Foles or even Rex Grossman.  Who didn’t win a super bowl but certainly got there while playing “in the right system (balance)”.  I think Justin can too if given the chance and a better overall supporting cast. 

Until I see him quit throwing weak arm passes off his back foot under pressure I won't be a Goff fan.  That was his issue in college and so far in the NFL.  Beyond that he's a terrific and accurate passer.  Maybe he has overcome that issue.  

[AZ54]

I'm going to pretend I didn't hear what he said because I don't really want that much hope for my Bears future. 

 

[Stinger226]

8 hours ago, AZ54 said:

I'm going to pretend I didn't hear what he said because I don't really want that much hope for my Bears future. 

 

Everyone has an opinion, I absolutely love when national pundits say something positive about Fields because that is rare. I think we could be seeing him progress into an top 10 QB, not necessarily this year but going forward. With a challenged OL and WR room, he still can show progress into a top QB. 

[Alaskan Grizzly]

I would think if he had a better oline and WRs maybe?  
 

 

[AZ54]

4 hours ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

I would think if he had a better oline and WRs maybe?  
 

 

If there is to be a breakout this season it's the 2nd half of the season when Fields should have  Whitehair back at LG, Patrick C, and then WRs Pringle, Jones, and Harry on the field along with Mooney.   

I'm not expecting anything great from any of the 3 WRs but Pringle is a better option than ISM or Pettis on contested catches, and he's a better blocker so run game improves.   Jones' route running will always be compromised but he's capable of ripping off chunk plays at any time.  It's obvious on Jones' TD run and then his WR screen play against Washington that he covers a lot of ground quickly.  That gives Fields a great option on some WR screens or short routes.  Harry can help in the red zone and again is an elite run blocker.  Each of them adds something we just don't have on the field right now and none are a receiving downgrade as compared to Pettis, ISM, or even St. Brown.    

[Alaskan Grizzly]

3 hours ago, AZ54 said:

If there is to be a breakout this season it's the 2nd half of the season when Fields should have  Whitehair back at LG, Patrick C, and then WRs Pringle, Jones, and Harry on the field along with Mooney.   

I'm not expecting anything great from any of the 3 WRs but Pringle is a better option than ISM or Pettis on contested catches, and he's a better blocker so run game improves.   Jones' route running will always be compromised but he's capable of ripping off chunk plays at any time.  It's obvious on Jones' TD run and then his WR screen play against Washington that he covers a lot of ground quickly.  That gives Fields a great option on some WR screens or short routes.  Harry can help in the red zone and again is an elite run blocker.  Each of them adds something we just don't have on the field right now and none are a receiving downgrade as compared to Pettis, ISM, or even St. Brown.    

Word.  ??

[BearFan PHX]

Im not done with Jones yet either. He's obviously raw. He needs to learn all the rookie lessons - catch the ball before you run with it etc etc, but it's too early to give up on him. But right now is he kind of a meathead? Yup LOL

But I agree, there is a good chance he will end up a speedy WR who can play in the league. You cant teach speed, the rest you can try to teach, and a lot of the times it works out.

[Mongo3451]

1 hour ago, BearFan PHX said:

Im not done with Jones yet either. He's obviously raw. He needs to learn all the rookie lessons - catch the ball before you run with it etc etc, but it's too early to give up on him. But right now is he kind of a meathead? Yup LOL

But I agree, there is a good chance he will end up a speedy WR who can play in the league. You cant teach speed, the rest you can try to teach, and a lot of the times it works out.

Same.  These guys are young and pressing to make plays.  They don't have a big veteran presence to calm the huddle.  I'm good with three growing pains.  The players that are keepers will band together and strengthen each other.  I trust this leadership group to recognize who they are.

[ASHKUM BEAR]

2 hours ago, BearFan PHX said:

Im not done with Jones yet either. He's obviously raw. He needs to learn all the rookie lessons - catch the ball before you run with it etc etc, but it's too early to give up on him. But right now is he kind of a meathead? Yup LOL

But I agree, there is a good chance he will end up a speedy WR who can play in the league. You cant teach speed, the rest you can try to teach, and a lot of the times it works out.

 The amount of punts Velus received in college wasn't alot (18).   The amount under the lights, lower.  Then add every twist that pro punters can launch at him, he is trying to catch punts he has never seen before.  Glad they gave him a shot, but he needs a few weeks under the jugs machine catching every punt they can throw at him.

If the Bears drafted Velus to be their punt returner, then they scouted poorly. They got their conviction off of a mere 18 punt returns.  He has more experience taking kickoffs, so maybe see him there

[adam]

20 hours ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

I would think if he had a better oline and WRs maybe?  
 

 

Fields and Allen is definitely an interesting comparison. BUF's top 2 WRs were John Brown and Cole Beasley. No other WR/TE/RB had over 30 receptions. The RBs were Singletary and Gore.  For O-Lines, BUF was 23rd in Pass Pro, the Bears are currently 32nd. However, that BUF team went 10-6. It is a much different development environment when you are losing.

[AZ54]

After watching most of the MNF game I am still perfectly happy to have Justin Fields as our QB.  Between Wilson throwing for 188yds and Herbert needing 57 passes (37 comp) to hit 238yds it seemed as if any second players would rip off their jersey to show a Bears uniform underneath.   

None of that is to say Fields doesn't need to improve, because he does.  It's just that I don't see as big a gap between him and players like Herbert as there might appear to be when looking at a stat sheet.  I'm willing to stay the course that Fields develops and then that next year with better talent around him his stats will take a corresponding bump upward. 

IMO that's far better than giving up 3 1st RD picks for Wilson, then paying him $$$$.  He simply isn't as fast as he used to be but he still wants to play like he did when he was younger.  For him that means positive plays outside the pocket in years past are now sacks or throwaways.  Lots of throwaways.  

Herbert was throwing to a $20mil WR but you'd never know it watching that game.   Williams had 2 for 17yds on 6 targets!   Then on some obvious blitzes Herbert wasn't hitting his open outlet quickly and sometimes chose to backpedal thus making the play more difficult.  Like Fields does, he also missed some easy open reads.  It wasn't all bad, he has arm talent but no throws I haven't seen from Fields.   Herbert is also in his 2nd season with that offense so it seems reasonable that blitzes and such should be handled better.     

Time will tell but for now, if there was a correct choice to poach among the offensive coaches in Green Bay we got the right one in Getsy.  Denver fans had to suffer through Fangio who was a great DC and now Hackett who was not a great OC.  I've watched 2 Broncos games so far this season and I've not seen nor heard (press conf) anything that impressed me.  

[OmahaBear]

has anyone else seen this.. Thought it was interesting.. https://twitter.com/SethWalder/status/1582377160207044608/photo/2

 

[BearFan PHX]

39 minutes ago, OmahaBear said:

has anyone else seen this.. Thought it was interesting.. https://twitter.com/SethWalder/status/1582377160207044608/photo/2

 

what a ridiculous stat!

First off, we can all see with our eyes that the Bears OL does not have a "strong pass block win rate" and surely not the 3rd or 4th best in the league I mean come on, that's insane.

Secondly, if a QB is holding the ball too long, that often means receivers arent open on those plays, so you cant say it's "mostly on him"

Id like to offer a different analysis - the OL is like a revolving door, and the reason that Fields' sacks come later than the average is because he is mobile and tries to escape, which extends the play.

But seriously, Seth Walder is a moron if he truly thinks this.

[Mongo3451]

2 hours ago, BearFan PHX said:

But seriously, Seth Walder is a moron if he truly thinks this.

I'd suggest he put protection packages, how many dropback steps the QB takes and how many pass rushers into his algorithm.  It would be very complicated.  But, if you are going to do the work, do it well.

[BearFan PHX]

29 minutes ago, Mongo3451 said:

I'd suggest he put protection packages, how many dropback steps the QB takes and how many pass rushers into his algorithm.  It would be very complicated.  But, if you are going to do the work, do it well.

I read in the comments they grade whether a blocker has their hands on the defender for 2.5 seconds. That might measure whether someone swims around you or not, but it doesnt measure all the times our guys got bullrushed up the middle and pushed into Fields.

These PFF type measurements are the opposite of information - they actually cause more confusion than understanding.

[Stinger226]

7 hours ago, BearFan PHX said:

what a ridiculous stat!

First off, we can all see with our eyes that the Bears OL does not have a "strong pass block win rate" and surely not the 3rd or 4th best in the league I mean come on, that's insane.

Secondly, if a QB is holding the ball too long, that often means receivers arent open on those plays, so you cant say it's "mostly on him"

Id like to offer a different analysis - the OL is like a revolving door, and the reason that Fields' sacks come later than the average is because he is mobile and tries to escape, which extends the play.

But seriously, Seth Walder is a moron if he truly thinks this.

Just watch a game and you can watch Fields get hammered by someone almost every play. You only need one guy to get beat. Yes he holds on to it to long but that is fixable as he is more trusting of his WRs. He's thinking to much.

[AZ54]

5 hours ago, Mongo3451 said:

I'd suggest he put protection packages, how many dropback steps the QB takes and how many pass rushers into his algorithm.  It would be very complicated.  But, if you are going to do the work, do it well.

Context matters in all this.  Simple statements like that are as bad as Kirk Herbstreit on TNF stating a WR was "open" downfield when you can clearly see the DB undercutting the route as he made his break.  Fields knows he's not throwing to a fast WR who is going to pull away from the DB after the break so he holds onto the ball.  On a shorter route you can fit that ball in but not 15-20yds downfield.  On the flip side, maybe when Fields gets more confidence in his WRs he'll throw that pass earlier.   I see all sorts of QBs holding onto the ball like that including Aaron Rodgers when they aren't sure where the WRs are going to be.  

   

[BearFan PHX]

23 minutes ago, Stinger226 said:

Just watch a game and you can watch Fields get hammered by someone almost every play. You only need one guy to get beat. Yes he holds on to it to long but that is fixable as he is more trusting of his WRs. He's thinking to much.

totally, no way the Bears are near the top of the league in pass protection. That alone should disqualify any and all information from that site whichever one it is.

19 minutes ago, AZ54 said:

Context matters in all this.  Simple statements like that are as bad as Kirk Herbstreit on TNF stating a WR was "open" downfield when you can clearly see the DB undercutting the route as he made his break.  Fields knows he's not throwing to a fast WR who is going to pull away from the DB after the break so he holds onto the ball.  On a shorter route you can fit that ball in but not 15-20yds downfield.  On the flip side, maybe when Fields gets more confidence in his WRs he'll throw that pass earlier.   I see all sorts of QBs holding onto the ball like that including Aaron Rodgers when they aren't sure where the WRs are going to be.  

   

yup

[AZ54]

 

[AZ54]

and counterpoint...

I'm still on Fields side in this and believe we'll get him where he needs to be.  I see the plays where he should recognize things quicker but also those where he gets it right.  All of them need to speed up a bit.  None of that is a surprise to me for a guy in his 18th game and in a new offense. 

A little more stability in front of Fields should help immensely if we can figure that out.  At least allow him to get past the first read before having to think about the protection.  

I thought I was one of very few in my assessment of Griffin running his route poorly when Fields overthrew him in the endzone.  Turns out Keyshawn and Dilfer agree although Trent has a unique way of explaining that running style.  

 

[Stinger226]

I have been reading where people are getting on Mooney for not coming down when he first caught the ball at the goal line in the last game. If you watch the replay, he catches the ball but as he was coming down the WRs helmet was rising into the catch and displaced the ball. I dont think 95% of the WRs in the league would have caught that at first. He gained control as he hit the ground but was not in the end zone. The last two passes were spot on with Fields. Pettis had the ball in his hands the play before and didnt hang on. That was his fault. 4 times we were in the red zone and only scored 1 TD. Easily could have won that game but a misplaced fumble again lost it for it. At least they cut IS-M .

[adam]

Did we just watch the tables turn on MNF? Are people starting to believe Fields is better than Jones finally? 

Jones has been terrible this year and was masked last year by a lot of factors. Now with Zappe, who may not be great, but looks better than Jones.

Zack Wilson is still throwing for under 150 yds and Lawrence goes from a 300 yard game to multiple INTs. 

So is it a reach to say Fields is at least in the conversation as the best 2nd year QB, especially considering the talent around him?