Fields-O-Meter

[Stinger226]

3 hours ago, adam said:

Watching some more of Fields' play. Even when he is throwing on time, over the middle, or in his progressions, he still has this hitch. He doesn't hit his back foot and just throw it. He either does a little hop, almost does a subconscious little pump fake, or a double clutch. I am seeing this even on what most would deem the good throws. Not all the throws, but a lot of them.

He seems way more comfortable throwing on the move, it is so weird. He also drifts in the pocket, a few times towards an Edge Defender who is going wide. If he stayed center, he could step up, but because he drifted, the Edge is on his back shoulder a step faster than it should be. At the end of the day, he seems like a super athletic dude trying to play QB. He has done it long enough to make some nice plays but it is not natural for him.

Watching this again makes me so pissed at Getsy. What the hell are some of these route combinations? They literally draw defenders in. In some cases, it allows them to cover 3 receivers with 2 defenders, terrible play designs.

There is also not may receivers open. Even with Moore, he has to make a lot of contested catches, or is hit right away.

Here is a good video with a whole bunch of clips put together: 

 

 

If we analyzed every throw Mahomes makes , you easIily could  find thinks to criticize him for if your objective is perfection.

[fudgeripple2000]

I was listening to an interview with Brock Huard.  He primarily is a commentator for the PAC 12.  And when asked about Williams vs Fields he asked one question.  Is Fields a leader of men?  The interviewer responded that he thinks so.  He has the respect and loyalty of the locker room.  Huard went on to say that there are college players even high school quarterbacks that can "spin" the football and they are elite athletes.  But are they leaders of men.

He also spoke against the OC from seattle.  He mentioned that the team should be built in the image of it's environement.  The bears were the monsters of the midway.  They have shown flashes that they can get there again.  If Poles sticks to the plan.

[BearFan PHX]

Some of these clips are from the 2022 season, and some are from the scripted plays too. Some are rollouts or screens where the ball comes out without a read. Some are play action where the ball comes out to the primary receiver again without much of a read.

In every game this season, you could see his performance just fall off of a cliff as soon as they were through the scripted plays.

If Fields was routinely doing this in mid games, I'd be a strong voice for keeping him, but he isn't.

[Stinger226]

1 hour ago, fudgeripple2000 said:

I was listening to an interview with Brock Huard.  He primarily is a commentator for the PAC 12.  And when asked about Williams vs Fields he asked one question.  Is Fields a leader of men?  The interviewer responded that he thinks so.  He has the respect and loyalty of the locker room.  Huard went on to say that there are college players even high school quarterbacks that can "spin" the football and they are elite athletes.  But are they leaders of men.

He also spoke against the OC from seattle.  He mentioned that the team should be built in the image of it's environement.  The bears were the monsters of the midway.  They have shown flashes that they can get there again.  If Poles sticks to the plan.

I watch tape and form opinions, my question is why do so many ex NFL players and  ex QBs still think Fields can be a star? These are people in a locker room, played the position , and have a better perspective than me. No way I'm smarter than them. This causes me to put more faith in their opinions. Am I wrong about that? 

I liken it to a uber driver taking me to a doctors appointment and listening to him instead of the doctor about my health. 

[Lucky Luciano]

here's the deal....

if we keep fields because he 'could' be good we are gambling this franchises future for the next five plus YEARS. that means we would have another complete rebuild in that time frame, but probably....

1. no top of round #1 pick to even GET a qb of that quality. we would have to trade the moon to pull off moving up that far if it was even POSSIBLE.

2. many and/or all of the current high quality players will be gone or want mega buck contracts. so figure most of those blue chip players are GONE and need to be drafted or replaced. where is that capital coming from?

3. if we fail in that time period do we go with new coaches/gm yet again? so there is another window of years to find their groove. although i will say i think poles biggest mistake so far is keeping flus. i would have had no really big problem if poles did this right. but giving flus the keys to the car to call and implement his defensive philosophy over another DC we don't even have coming in just smacks of typical bear franchise moves from mikey to george. in other words idiotic.

IF fields was a constant, and meaning he showed consistent abilities every really good qb needs, then that would have been a whole different scenario. but it is NOT.

i don't care WHAT the rest of the team looks like. he has had 3 years in the NFL to show what skills he has even behind poor talent. he has not done that. his abilities to read the field in a 3D model in fractions of a second just does not exist with any consistency.

he is NOT like maholmes who shows it nearly every game even when his offensive talent and receiving corp which has been atrocious with drops and poor routes. so that comparison to me is ludicrous.

 

[BearFan PHX]

17 minutes ago, Lucky Luciano said:

here's the deal....

if we keep fields because he 'could' be good we are gambling this franchises future for the next five plus YEARS. that means we would have another complete rebuild in that time frame, but probably....

1. no top of round #1 pick to even GET a qb of that quality. we would have to trade the moon to pull off moving up that far if it was even POSSIBLE.

2. many and/or all of the current high quality players will be gone or want mega buck contracts. so figure most of those blue chip players are GONE and need to be drafted or replaced. where is that capital coming from?

3. if we fail in that time period do we go with new coaches/gm yet again? so there is another window of years to find their groove. although i will say i think poles biggest mistake so far is keeping flus. i would have had no really big problem if poles did this right. but giving flus the keys to the car to call and implement his defensive philosophy over another DC we don't even have coming in just smacks of typical bear franchise moves from mikey to george. in other words idiotic.

IF fields was a constant, and meaning he showed consistent abilities every really good qb needs, then that would have been a whole different scenario. but it is NOT.

i don't care WHAT the rest of the team looks like. he has had 3 years in the NFL to show what skills he has even behind poor talent. he has not done that. his abilities to read the field in a 3D model in fractions of a second just does not exist with any consistency.

he is NOT like maholmes who shows it nearly every game even when his offensive talent and receiving corp which has been atrocious with drops and poor routes. so that comparison to me is ludicrous.

 

A freakin MEN - I swear it's like the emperor is stark naked and people are talking about how amazing his robe is. Ive never seen it like this before. To me, it's completely crazy.

[adam]

2 hours ago, Stinger226 said:

If we analyzed every throw Mahomes makes , you easIily could  find thinks to criticize him for if your objective is perfection.

I don't watch other teams other than highlights or the playoffs, or for fantasy football purposes. When I have seen Mahomes, he is not perfect at all, and sometimes he has a holy crap, what was he thinking type of pass. However, there really isn't something he does consistently that would be considered "bad". He does bad things, they are just not consistent. From watching Fields again, there is almost always slight delay for delivering the ball. His arm strength makes up for it sometimes, but it just feels like everything is a twitch too slow. I found myself saying "throw it" even when I knew when the throw was coming. Again, this is just my observation, it means nothing in the grand scheme of things. 

[adam]

2 hours ago, fudgeripple2000 said:

I was listening to an interview with Brock Huard.  He primarily is a commentator for the PAC 12.  And when asked about Williams vs Fields he asked one question.  Is Fields a leader of men?  The interviewer responded that he thinks so.  He has the respect and loyalty of the locker room.  Huard went on to say that there are college players even high school quarterbacks that can "spin" the football and they are elite athletes.  But are they leaders of men.

He also spoke against the OC from seattle.  He mentioned that the team should be built in the image of it's environement.  The bears were the monsters of the midway.  They have shown flashes that they can get there again.  If Poles sticks to the plan.

I don't know what to think of bad former players. They reached the mountain top and made it to the NFL, but in Brock's case, he was atrocious. He started 4 games in his entire NFL career, went 0-4, and was out of the league after 8 total game appearances. Again, that's 8 more than me. However, it's hard to sift thru some of this with these guys. Is Huard saying that because that is what was ingrained in him as a player, that above all else, that is more important than skill?

I get that players need to be leaders and part of the gig is motivating others, but at the same time, if you are terrible at your job, you will have a hard time leading others. 

Waldron is a very solid OC, with success as an OC. He would fit right in like he did in SEA with Flus compared to Carroll. The Bears wouldn't have interviewed him if they weren't interested. There is a great chance he is an OC in the NFL this season. Huard will not be. 

So guys like this, Brady Quinn, Dan Orlovsky, JT O'Sullivan. I appreciate their perspective, but have to understand it comes from being some of the worst doctors in the world. They made it thru med school, are certified, but all they did was malpractice. Would you take their medical advice knowing they were some of the worst in their craft?

[Mongo3451]

14 minutes ago, adam said:

So guys like this, Brady Quinn, Dan Orlovsky, JT O'Sullivan. I appreciate their perspective, but have to understand it comes from being some of the worst doctors in the world. They made it thru med school, are certified, but all they did was malpractice. Would you take their medical advice knowing they were some of the worst in their craft?

It truly doesn't matter how good of an NFL player they were.  The fact that they made the NFL shows they were elite, on the scale of normal football players.  What they say matters, IF.  That's IF they have done their homework.  These guys are looking at the whole league.  They usually aren't fully in tune with the whole picture. They don't know what route tree the was called.  Nor do they know if someone ran the wrong route.  They don't know the progression order that was determined in practice.  They don't know what blitz pickup or hot read was called.  If like to see a full breakdown from Aikman or Warner.  They have the cred to tell the truth, without being football political. (Or a former OC)

[Alaskan Grizzly]

55 minutes ago, Lucky Luciano said:

here's the deal....

if we keep fields because he 'could' be good we are gambling this franchises future for the next five plus YEARS. that means we would have another complete rebuild in that time frame, but probably....

1. no top of round #1 pick to even GET a qb of that quality. we would have to trade the moon to pull off moving up that far if it was even POSSIBLE.

So take the #1 pick and draft him to hope “he could be good” with little evidence he will.  And while doing so have less stock in other potential multiple draft picks (to include maybe even another future first)?  Having a trove of picks answers your second question.  You have multiple ‘talented’ players on rookie contracts instead of one.  I think we’d agree Poles does well at analyzing talent and getting more band for his buck with draft picks so far. 
 

You’re sure that no team will be so desperate to get Williams they wouldn’t sell the farm to include a potential future first to get him?  

[BearFan PHX]

27 minutes ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

So take the #1 pick and draft him to hope “he could be good” with little evidence he will.  And while doing so have less stock in other potential multiple draft picks (to include maybe even another future first)?  Having a trove of picks answers your second question.  You have multiple ‘talented’ players on rookie contracts instead of one.  I think we’d agree Poles does well at analyzing talent and getting more band for his buck with draft picks so far. 
 

You’re sure that no team will be so desperate to get Williams they wouldn’t sell the farm to include a potential future first to get him?  

First off there is a lot of evidence that a #1 pick QB will be great, and a lot of evidence that Williams will be great - and yes there is risk. There is risk in every draft pick, and every scenario.

Secondly, I am sure trading down our #1 overall will net a 2025 first rounder. How sure are you that it will be a #1 overall? That's what he's saying.

Let's start the analysis here - what do you think the best QB in the league is worth in first round draft picks? Bill Polian said Peyton Manning was worth 10 first rounders. Where do you value a player like that?

[Alaskan Grizzly]

7 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said:

and a lot of evidence that Williams will be great -

Yet you still haven’t presented it.  
 

8 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said:

Bill Polian said Peyton Manning was worth 10 first rounders. Where do you value a player like that?

Has Bill Polian come out and said this about Williams?  His observations of Ryan Leaf (at the time) are very similar to what we’ve been hearing about Williams being aloof and other relatable “rumors”.  

[BearFan PHX]

1 hour ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

Yet you still haven’t presented it.  
 

Has Bill Polian come out and said this about Williams?  His observations of Ryan Leaf (at the time) are very similar to what we’ve been hearing about Williams being aloof and other relatable “rumors”.  

OK, if were gonna talk sports, thats fine, but somehow this had kind of a nasty tone.

You have heard the word generational passed around in relation to Williams from any number of sportswriters and talent evaluators. I simply said that there is a lot of that kind of evidence out there, and I also said at the same time that there is risk too. You clipped that half of the sentence off as if I was asserting that Williams was a known quantity, when I never said that at all. If you want to debate, you have to be intellectually honest.

You asserted that there is "little evidence", as if Williams is a complete unknown, and thats just not true. And similarly, no one knows anything for sure, and that is also true. And it's like square one, so I'm surprised you're starting there as if that is new?

Also, I said Peyton Manning. I was starting my argument there. What is a great QB worth in first round picks in your opinion?

We can get to the next steps of the logical argument after that first question. What is a top 5 NFL QB worth in first round picks in your opinion?

If you were the KC GM, how many first rounders would it take before youd trade Mahomes?

[fudgeripple2000]

3 hours ago, Stinger226 said:

I watch tape and form opinions, my question is why do so many ex NFL players and  ex QBs still think Fields can be a star? These are people in a locker room, played the position , and have a better perspective than me. No way I'm smarter than them. This causes me to put more faith in their opinions. Am I wrong about that? 

I liken it to a uber driver taking me to a doctors appointment and listening to him instead of the doctor about my health. 

Why does the quarterback have to be a star?  And what makes someone a star?  From 2012 to 2022. There were 10 quarterbacks that were in the superbowl that were not stars. Their opponents were 5 different quarterbacks that one could say are/were stars.  I know brock huard was a less than mediocre quarterback.  I personally can't stand his voice.  But he has seen his fair share of stars, busts and leaders of men.  

[Daventry]

5 hours ago, Stinger226 said:

I watch tape and form opinions, my question is why do so many ex NFL players and  ex QBs still think Fields can be a star? These are people in a locker room, played the position , and have a better perspective than me. No way I'm smarter than them. This causes me to put more faith in their opinions. Am I wrong about that? 

I liken it to a uber driver taking me to a doctors appointment and listening to him instead of the doctor about my health. 

Yawn.  Listen to Aerosmith “Same Old Story Same Old Song and Dance”.  Again and again 

[BearFan PHX]

Are there a lot of examples where former QBs who are now pundits say that a current NFL QB is trash and they should move on from him?

It stands to reason that some NFL QBs should be kept and others should be traded or cut. Maybe people have different opinions about that, which is fair. But do these former NFL QB pundits ever say a current NFL QB should be replaced?

And if not, then maybe that's part of doing that job, but it also makes their support of Fields questionable?

Can anyone find me an example of Brock Huard ripping a current NFL QB on one of these shows?

[Bill]

Cost going forward, not in the equation for now.  Fields is a great watch.  He's not taking any team to the SB.  Yes anytime.   Just my wimpy ass option.  Look me up when he does!!!!   

[adam]

Sometimes I feel like the Progressive commercial, Becoming Your Parents, when talking about Fields: "We all see it, we all see it".

[BearFan PHX]

26 minutes ago, adam said:

Sometimes I feel like the Progressive commercial, Becoming Your Parents, when talking about Fields: "We all see it, we all see it".

but apparently we don't all see it. Most of us do, and then there are a few who see it completely differently, and (from my point of view) will spin arguments that make no sense to defend him. Not all who like Fields do that to be sure, but there are at least a few faithful here that won't budge an inch.

Personally, i have always had a mixed view on him. In 2022 his running was amazing. In 2023, they obviously coached him not to put moves on any defenders, but just to slide, so that took away the best part of his game. And if he kept doing what he was doing in 2022, he'd get injured. So it's a skill that doesn't fit the position because no one will let you use it.

Like Hester, he has pure open field running talent, but just as Hester couldnt learn the technical aspects of playing wide receiver to bring his talents into a part of an offensive structure, so does Fields struggle to play in structure, even as his athletic ability is amazing.

Fields hasnt won big games, he hasnt led 4th quarter comebacks, he hasnt won many games, and he hasnt broken 300 yards except for once.

The best you can say for Fields is that he may develop into a functional QB and then those skills will be extra gravy. And that nothing is his fault, so he will be better if you put Pro Bowlers at every position around him.

But I give him respect and credit for his leadership, his personality, his work ethic and his athleticism. I just dont think he will ever win a Super Bowl with this team. And if you know that, then you gotta move on.

But I dont hear the other side of this argument on this board giving any middle ground. I don't hear a lot of "Justin has real problems with reading defenses and playing in structure but..." and it's getting SO repetitive.

We should all be debating which rookie to take instead of still hashing out Justin Fields. It seems way past time. We kept hearing "just a few more games" and then "well the last game maybe he can do something" listen, if JF was the man, youd know it before the last game this year. That was ridiculous. But we kept on hoping just one more time come on baby please just do it.

It's mind boggling. It was desperation.

If Justin was a good QB, he'd have been a good QB.

Can we have a discussion on which rookie to draft? that's much more interesting, and every opinion across the board is respectable because no one knows anything yet. We can have totally different opinions on them all and I don't see the conversation getting this silly or exasperating.

 

[Stinger226]

9 hours ago, Lucky Luciano said:

here's the deal....

if we keep fields because he 'could' be good we are gambling this franchises future for the next five plus YEARS. that means we would have another complete rebuild in that time frame, but probably....

1. no top of round #1 pick to even GET a qb of that quality. we would have to trade the moon to pull off moving up that far if it was even POSSIBLE.

2. many and/or all of the current high quality players will be gone or want mega buck contracts. so figure most of those blue chip players are GONE and need to be drafted or replaced. where is that capital coming from?

3. if we fail in that time period do we go with new coaches/gm yet again? so there is another window of years to find their groove. although i will say i think poles biggest mistake so far is keeping flus. i would have had no really big problem if poles did this right. but giving flus the keys to the car to call and implement his defensive philosophy over another DC we don't even have coming in just smacks of typical bear franchise moves from mikey to george. in other words idiotic.

IF fields was a constant, and meaning he showed consistent abilities every really good qb needs, then that would have been a whole different scenario. but it is NOT.

i don't care WHAT the rest of the team looks like. he has had 3 years in the NFL to show what skills he has even behind poor talent. he has not done that. his abilities to read the field in a 3D model in fractions of a second just does not exist with any consistency.

he is NOT like maholmes who shows it nearly every game even when his offensive talent and receiving corp which has been atrocious with drops and poor routes. so that comparison to me is ludicrous.

 

I get your concerns, as I said, if Williams is a tier. 1  QB, Poles will take him. At this point it's about trying to figure out what Poles is going to do. It's not set in stone, he's taking Williams, lots of analysis left to figure it out.

[AZ54]

Halftime.  I’m still waiting for the CJ Stroud is better than Justin Fields moment.   What is better is his Oline. 

[adam]

6 minutes ago, AZ54 said:

Halftime.  I’m still waiting for the CJ Stroud is better than Justin Fields moment.   What is better is his Oline. 

or Lamar for that matter.

Stroud 11-20, 55%, 131 yds, 6.6 Y/A. Outside of 3 plays has basically done nothing.

On the other side, Lamar has 89 passing yards, 5.9 Y/A with a TD and 68 rushing yards and a TD. Neither have impressed me at all. Both look super tight and jumpy. 

[BearFan PHX]

28 minutes ago, AZ54 said:

Halftime.  I’m still waiting for the CJ Stroud is better than Justin Fields moment.   What is better is his Oline. 

It's weird, as an athlete Fields is a total stud. But he doesnt play in structure. The stats are hard to compare for that reason. But I don't see Fields leading the team to scores. When certain QBs have the ball in their hands you think "OK here we go" and I never saw Fields take the team on his back and will them to victory.

In some ways Stroud is inferior to Fields. But he is more efficient as a passer, and he's executing the offense, surrounded as you guys say, by a good team. Im not sure Fields would be efficient, even if you surrounded him with better talent.

[Mongo3451]

46 minutes ago, AZ54 said:

Halftime.  I’m still waiting for the CJ Stroud is better than Justin Fields moment.   What is better is his Oline. 

You may not be seeing it against one of the best defenses in the league, but Mr Magoo saw it last week.  And if you are trying to tell me Justin is as good as Stroud, I'd be shocked.

[adam]

4 minutes ago, Mongo3451 said:

You may not be seeing it against one of the best defenses in the league, but Mr Magoo saw it last week.  And if you are trying to tell me Justin is as good as Stroud, I'd be shocked.

Houston's offense has 3 points with what some are calling a top 5 play caller in Slowik. Regardless of the defense, this was a terrible outing in arguably the biggest game of Stroud's life and he literally shit the bed.