Player Development Concern

[adam]

It seems like this organization has had a player development deficit for quite some time. When has a player come into the organization and played better on the Bears than on a previous team (Akiem Hicks?). 

Of the recent acquisitions, the only player not to play worse on defense has been Billings.

Edmunds, Edwards, Walker, Green, and Jones all seem worse this year. Tonyan has been bad, Davis with the obvious personal issues, but even Patrick has disappointed. 

Then on the draft side, what player have the Bears developed where you could actually see the progression? Eddie Jackson peaked in year 2, got hurt and was never the same. He has shied away from contact ever since that ankle injury.

Jaylon Johnson has been fairly consistent since his rookie year, but the fact that he doesn't have an extension yet is somewhat alarming if the Bears do in fact think he is a CB1. 

Gordon was terrible his rookie year and hasn't played this year. Brisker looked better his rookie year, he looks much slower, missing tackles, and not playing that good in coverage in the first 4 weeks. 

Sanborn looked better his rookie year, still plays with hustle but is missing a ton of tackles. 

Stevenson and Smith, as rookie corners are playing ok, a couple of flash plays, but it's hard to see any true development. Still too early on them.

How about Dexter and Pickens? I think Pickens got half a sack and that would be the first pressure for either of them, a quarter of the way thru the season. The Bears need a lot more out of these two.

On offense, we obviously know about Fields, but Herbert is about the same, Kmet has been like Johnson, Mooney still seems a little off since the injury last year. Whitehair is getting worse with age, Braxton Jones was playing well before injury and may be the highlight of the Bears development. Wright is ok, but is a top 11 pick, so you would expect him to be at least good if not inconsistent. Jenkins can't stay healthy, and who knows what they do with him after 2024. He has only played in 19 games out of 37 possible games, he will miss his 19th game on Thursday, meaning he has only be available for 50% of the games. That is just way too low for a contract extension. 

So for new acquisitions, maybe Moore is the only player on track for a better season statistically than he had last year. Of the rookies, maybe Roschon is the only one playing better than his draft status, and from the Bears from last season, maybe Braxton Jones was it before getting hurt (neck injury). Who am I missing? Just seems like an underwhelming and disappointing group, pointing to bad coaching all around. This does not even count Claypool who looks to be a pending cut or trade candidate. How about Leatherwood? Never improved. 

Something is in the water at Halas Hall and it is not good. Did they import Flint specials?

[Alaskan Grizzly]

12 minutes ago, adam said:

Jaylon Johnson has been fairly consistent since his rookie year, but the fact that he doesn't have an extension yet is somewhat alarming if the Bears do in fact think he is a CB1.

I would argue consistently mediocre.  

Edwards was/is the #2 overall tackler in the NFL (at least yesterday he was).  Of course he's also on the field a lot...so there's that. 

And in another post someone mentioned that the much maligned Sam Mustipher was recently the 2nd ranked Center(?).  Of course it was PFF.  So maybe he's doing better because of better coaching?  ?‍♂️

And to add to your thought, to me Ngakoue has been the biggest disappointment.  He's nowhere near the advertised '8 sacks per season' pace.  I get that Edmunds has been busy juggling a new scheme and playcalling so there is that 'excuse' for him to come along slower, but I mean Yannick's specialty is rushing the QB.  And it ain't happen' much so far.

[adam]

3 minutes ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

I would argue consistently mediocre.  

Edwards was/is the #2 overall tackler in the NFL (at least yesterday he was).  Of course he's also on the field a lot...so there's that. 

And in another post someone mentioned that the much maligned Sam Mustipher was recently the 2nd ranked Center(?).  Of course it was PFF.  So maybe he's doing better because of better coaching?  ?‍♂️

Johnson has been slightly above average in most metrics, but is not a ballhawk. He takes very few chances. However, how much has Bears coaching hurt him? Why would he want to sign an extension here?

For Edwards, I was just saying he was playing at an elite level in Philly, now missing tackles in Chicago. Getting a tackle after a 7 yard run should not even be a tackle. BTW, Roquan and Nick Morrow are the top 2 rated LBs on PFF. Pretty funny. 

Mustipher looks much better, again coaching. Olin Kreutz was pretty vocal about it as Mustipher trained with Olin. I believe Carter does this year. So the only guys that have improved on the O-Line trained with Kreutz.  

[BearFan PHX]

I agree that player development hasn't been a strength of the Bears for a long long time. I would just add that it's hard to use statistics to measure that since it's a team game and our team sucks. For example, you could blame Fields, the coaches and the scheme for Mooney's low yardage total, even if Mooney knows the position better than last year. The whole boat rises and sinks together.

But aside from my caveat about which evidence you use, your main point is right on. We do not develop anyone - QBs especially.

[ASHKUM BEAR]

Heard a report that Brisker holds one arm different and it looks like he has a brace to support a shoulder.  That could be his issue for being playing soft.

If the Bears make a scheme change, how much time does that add for the D to gel. Seems like an ugly cycle. But new blood at QB could be all it takes for the fans to buy in.

 

[BearFan PHX]

1 hour ago, ASHKUM BEAR said:

Heard a report that Brisker holds one arm different and it looks like he has a brace to support a shoulder.  That could be his issue for being playing soft.

If the Bears make a scheme change, how much time does that add for the D to gel. Seems like an ugly cycle. But new blood at QB could be all it takes for the fans to buy in.

 

Amen. Two top draft picks, and a decent roster plus a huge amount of cap money means we CAN turn this around - especially with a new QB.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

1 hour ago, ASHKUM BEAR said:

Heard a report that Brisker holds one arm different and it looks like he has a brace to support a shoulder.  That could be his issue for being playing soft.

I was thinking he reminded me more of a Chris Conte who liked to lay wood but would be injured all the time because of it.  Being a SS I thought Brisker would be better at run stopping than he has been.   I didn't think he'd been going soft...maybe he has.

[Stinger226]

4 hours ago, adam said:

It seems like this organization has had a player development deficit for quite some time. When has a player come into the organization and played better on the Bears than on a previous team (Akiem Hicks?). 

Of the recent acquisitions, the only player not to play worse on defense has been Billings.

Edmunds, Edwards, Walker, Green, and Jones all seem worse this year. Tonyan has been bad, Davis with the obvious personal issues, but even Patrick has disappointed. 

Then on the draft side, what player have the Bears developed where you could actually see the progression? Eddie Jackson peaked in year 2, got hurt and was never the same. He has shied away from contact ever since that ankle injury.

Jaylon Johnson has been fairly consistent since his rookie year, but the fact that he doesn't have an extension yet is somewhat alarming if the Bears do in fact think he is a CB1. 

Gordon was terrible his rookie year and hasn't played this year. Brisker looked better his rookie year, he looks much slower, missing tackles, and not playing that good in coverage in the first 4 weeks. 

Sanborn looked better his rookie year, still plays with hustle but is missing a ton of tackles. 

Stevenson and Smith, as rookie corners are playing ok, a couple of flash plays, but it's hard to see any true development. Still too early on them.

How about Dexter and Pickens? I think Pickens got half a sack and that would be the first pressure for either of them, a quarter of the way thru the season. The Bears need a lot more out of these two.

On offense, we obviously know about Fields, but Herbert is about the same, Kmet has been like Johnson, Mooney still seems a little off since the injury last year. Whitehair is getting worse with age, Braxton Jones was playing well before injury and may be the highlight of the Bears development. Wright is ok, but is a top 11 pick, so you would expect him to be at least good if not inconsistent. Jenkins can't stay healthy, and who knows what they do with him after 2024. He has only played in 19 games out of 37 possible games, he will miss his 19th game on Thursday, meaning he has only be available for 50% of the games. That is just way too low for a contract extension. 

So for new acquisitions, maybe Moore is the only player on track for a better season statistically than he had last year. Of the rookies, maybe Roschon is the only one playing better than his draft status, and from the Bears from last season, maybe Braxton Jones was it before getting hurt (neck injury). Who am I missing? Just seems like an underwhelming and disappointing group, pointing to bad coaching all around. This does not even count Claypool who looks to be a pending cut or trade candidate. How about Leatherwood? Never improved. 

Something is in the water at Halas Hall and it is not good. Did they import Flint specials?

I dont disagree with everything you said but to defend some of the younger players development, injuries has plagued many this year. Poles said he wants to build thru the draft has the necessity to  have to sign FAs. Yes he deserves to be questioned on choices but I honestly think some will end up being good players as the year goes on. If we crap out as you suggest , then everything you said is true.   I am just a drunk coolaid drinking idiot that still has hope we actually win some games in the future.  I am not going to apologize for being optimistic until there is none.

[Mongo3451]

Everyone needs to realize that this is one of the biggest rebuild efforts in NFL history.  The McCaskey's have provided the brass the levity to do it right.  As a result, the turnover has resulted in over 60 new players signed in the last two years.  It takes time, with that said, luck has not been in our favor.  Even if this season looks like a waste, it is not.  Depth is being built regardless of the coaching staff.  Whatever happens next has a better chance as a result.  It's going to happen...

[BearFan PHX]

11 minutes ago, Mongo3451 said:

Everyone needs to realize that this is one of the biggest rebuild efforts in NFL history.  The McCaskey's have provided the brass the levity to do it right.  As a result, the turnover has resulted in over 60 new players signed in the last two years.  It takes time, with that said, luck has not been in our favor.  Even if this season looks like a waste, it is not.  Depth is being built regardless of the coaching staff.  Whatever happens next has a better chance as a result.  It's going to happen...

i totally agree! This is the only way to build a winner. i just think that the coaches and Fields wont be a part of it. But yes, overall, the rebuild is moving forward. We just dont see more results yet. For example 2 x 2 x 0 = 0, but 9 x 15 x 0 = 0 too. THe 9 and 15 got better, when we get rid of the zeroes, this team is gonna make a huge step.

[Mongo3451]

47 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said:

i totally agree! This is the only way to build a winner. i just think that the coaches and Fields wont be a part of it. But yes, overall, the rebuild is moving forward. We just dont see more results yet. For example 2 x 2 x 0 = 0, but 9 x 15 x 0 = 0 too. THe 9 and 15 got better, when we get rid of the zeroes, this team is gonna make a huge step.

I truly believe the next step is a new QB and coaching staff.  It would take a lot of balls and faith for Poles to keep the staff intact.  The fact that our defense has done nothing in two years is enough to displace Flus.  Bringing in a new coach and QB with an established line is the optimal situation for any young prospect.

[BearFan PHX]

2 minutes ago, Mongo3451 said:

I truly believe the next step is a new QB and coaching staff.  It would take a lot of balls and faith for Poles to keep the staff intact.  The fact that our defense has done nothing in two years is enough to displace Flus.  Bringing in a new coach and QB with an established line is the optimal situation for any young prospect.

I fully agree, and the prospect of a new QB and top pick brings better coaching options and interest too!

To your point about having the balls to keep the staff, youre right, they really cant. There's already noise that Caleb Williams would stay in school rather than go to the Bears - I assume if you got a great new staff in, there wouldnt be that issue any more.

And even if Eberflus is a decent coach and has had some things go against him, he isnt a great coach - and thats what hires should be in the NFL - lottery tickets on great coaches. That a lot of it isnt Flus fault? That's beside the point. This isn't a judgement of what would be fairest for Flus, it's a question of whether we've seen any sign that he is a potential GREAT coach. I havent seen it.

So yeah, I agree with you, Flus has to be gone.

And as sad as this is to say so early - I'm looking forward to 2024. I really do think there is light at the end of this tunnel for us. But man the product on the field as currently formulated is awful. We have some really good young players, but it's a mess right now.

[ChileBear]

9 hours ago, BearFan PHX said:

I fully agree, and the prospect of a new QB and top pick brings better coaching options and interest too!

To your point about having the balls to keep the staff, youre right, they really cant. There's already noise that Caleb Williams would stay in school rather than go to the Bears - I assume if you got a great new staff in, there wouldnt be that issue any more.

And even if Eberflus is a decent coach and has had some things go against him, he isnt a great coach - and thats what hires should be in the NFL - lottery tickets on great coaches. That a lot of it isnt Flus fault? That's beside the point. This isn't a judgement of what would be fairest for Flus, it's a question of whether we've seen any sign that he is a potential GREAT coach. I havent seen it.

So yeah, I agree with you, Flus has to be gone.

And as sad as this is to say so early - I'm looking forward to 2024. I really do think there is light at the end of this tunnel for us. But man the product on the field as currently formulated is awful. We have some really good young players, but it's a mess right now.

And we'll have another rookie QB with a low salary for a few years. Can apply $ for other positions. That seems to be the way the best teams have gotten there recently.  New coach MUST BE offense based.

[AZ54]

First off I like Coach Hoke and think he'll do good things with the DBs.  It's hard to know much with so many depth players seeing time on the field already this season.   With new pieces everywhere on a scheme extremely reliant on assignment discipline.  I see people asking for more variety in scheme in coverages too but again, how much of that can you do effectively with a practice squad guy and two rookies out there?  

Dline... Dexter has clearly improved from his college tape yet is nowhere near where I think he can get to.   Pickens has much to learn and with less physical talent than Dexter will take longer to show up consistently.  Justin Jones continue to play at a backup level and he's not going to be any different ever at this point in his career.  Billings has looked good.  

Edge...  DRob is playing better and setting the edge far better than he did last year.  He's not getting anywhere on pass rush so that's either going to take another offseason or he plateaus this year.  We still have to remember he's a oonverted WR still learning his new position.  At least his trend is upward.  Ngakoue is doing what he has always done but he's been a little stouter against the run than I expected.  He's still a player who often needs help from inside pressure to get his sacks.  

LBs...  I'm not worried about long term.  Each week there are more splash plays, some of that as the Dline comes together, some no doubt from time in the scheme.  Washington totally abandoned the run to feast on our poor coverage and lack of pass rush.  Of course the score had a lot to do with that but giving up 29yd rushing is good even if it's for one half. 

Oline... better this year is Carter who wasn't good enough to get snaps last year.  Borom has made a big improvement.  He's still limited in his agility but he's clearly better.  Jenkins was moved inside and developed into a really good OG.  In his half game against Wash he was pretty good against some Pro Bowl DTs.  Using his injury history against his development history is comparing apples to oranges.   At LT Jones developed quickly from a 5th Rd pick to starter level player.  He's better this year than last year too and is one of the better run blocking LTs in the league.   Darnell Wright continues to get better each week.  

WR... still waiting but if there were one guy who has gotten better here I'd say it's ESB.  

TE... Kmet has clearly improved the last 2 seasons.  

QB... Hard to say Justin isn't getting better.  

I don't like the long drawn out approach to the breakdowns but they did a good job highlighting Wright's performance.  I was willing to spend big $ for Daron Payne, Wright controlled him and even made him look like Justin Jones on some plays.  He's still learning but experience against different styles of pass rushers over the course of the season will help him.