Week Something Official Game Thread - LVR @ CHI, SUN, sometime, on a channel, Raiders favored, blah blah blah

[AZ54]

2 hours ago, Bears4Ever_34 said:

 

• - The QB sneak play, he had the presence of mind to anticipate Crosby coming over the middle and finding the gap to the right to pick up another key 3rd down

When you rewatch that QB sneak you will see the defensive front stacks 3 Dline in tight over the center/G.   LDE stays out wide over the RT.  Bagent simply took what he saw and slid to the gap on his right and got into the gap between RG/RT.  Even the tush pushers weren't expecting that, you'll see them pause as he slides right, but it was simply the logical thing to do.   Football can often be difficult but sometimes it's just easy if you take what's given to you.   

[BearFan PHX]

Just now, AZ54 said:

When you rewatch that QB sneak you will see the defensive front stacks 3 Dline in tight over the center/G.   LDE stays out wide over the RT.  Bagent simply took what he saw and slid to the gap on his right and got into the gap between RG/RT.  Even the tush pushers weren't expecting that, you'll see them pause as he slides right, but it was simply the logical thing to do.   Football can often be difficult but sometimes it's just easy if you take what's given to you.   

I agree. Bagent did a great job in pre snap reads and changing plays at the line. It was most obvious on a bunch of the outside runs, but this play is an example too, except he didnt verbalize it, and just took it himself.

[AZ54]

5 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said:

yes, the same ones who mishandled the timeouts at the half.

As backups go, I like Carter but when he's in the game the Oline simply isn't the same.  Kudos to the coaches for getting their best 5 on the field today and sliding Jenkins over to RG with Whitehair back at LG.  

Sorry but the Oline coach does not manage time outs in the game.  Fact is Chris Morgan has given us several very good games of Oline play, both pass protection and run blocking  despite not having a consistent starting 5, and while starting a rookie at RT.   Find a QB who would hit the easy quick hitting routes more often and things might feel much different for the Oline play.    

I agreed with calling a timeout there.  The rookie was playing well enough with his decision making to at least bring him over the sideline and talk about strategy for a bit.   In the end if you still want to be cautious to end the half just run the ball and the clock on the next play.   That's HC issues.  

[Mongo3451]

19 minutes ago, AZ54 said:

Even the tush pushers weren't expecting that, you'll see them pause

Lol, Mooney is the last guy I thought would be the tush pusher...??????

[AZ54]

7 minutes ago, Mongo3451 said:

Lol, Mooney is the last guy I thought would be the tush pusher...??????

Well it's important to set your career goals. 

--------------

For all the talk of Bagent coming out for Peterman on the Hail Mary attempt, I think it was simply to protect Bagent.   If arm strength is the concern here's the velocity of passes from NFL combine data (I think Adam already posted some of this data in table format elsewhere). 

Bagent throwing Left had more velocity 56mph than Mahomes 55mph.  

Peterman was 49mph Left and Right.  

To his detriment (maybe) Bagent threw 53mph to his right.  Or maybe it's technique/footwork that took some velocity off the ball.  

FWIW Lamar Jackson threw the same velocity as Peterman (49mph).   Brock Purdy 52/51mph.  

Trubisky was 51/50mph perhaps illustrating part of his problem with tight window throws.  Slower velocity combined with slower processing and a slower release, is a bad combination.  

There's no data on Fields due to no combine in 2021.  

I've watched the combine for years and also tend to think it's not just throwing velocity but how you achieve that.  For some guys it comes naturally, for others it looks like a lot of effort.  IMO higher effort tends to lead to more off-target passes.  

https://www.ourlads.com/story/default/Quarterback-Ball-Velocity-at-NFL-Combine-2008-2017/10243/dh/

 

[Stinger226]

We could easily be talking about winning 3 games in a row right now. A couple of plays back in the Denver game and it could be 4 in a row. We are getting better. The Fields injury could be a blessing in disguise. Not only are we seeing a competent backup but Justin was watching this game to. Coaches can tell you all day to get the ball out quicker but he got to watch how successful that can be. Fields is going to play better going forward. He is a very intelligent QB , he just learned something today. 

Injured players are starting to come back. Flus may not be a good head coach but the defense has been much better since he started calling the defensive plays. I've been doing mock drafts and dreaming of the top 2 picks. That may be a little pre mature.

[BearFan PHX]

1 hour ago, AZ54 said:

As backups go, I like Carter but when he's in the game the Oline simply isn't the same.  Kudos to the coaches for getting their best 5 on the field today and sliding Jenkins over to RG with Whitehair back at LG.  

Sorry but the Oline coach does not manage time outs in the game.  Fact is Chris Morgan has given us several very good games of Oline play, both pass protection and run blocking  despite not having a consistent starting 5, and while starting a rookie at RT.   Find a QB who would hit the easy quick hitting routes more often and things might feel much different for the Oline play.    

I agreed with calling a timeout there.  The rookie was playing well enough with his decision making to at least bring him over the sideline and talk about strategy for a bit.   In the end if you still want to be cautious to end the half just run the ball and the clock on the next play.   That's HC issues.  

we may be talking past each other. I'm saying the HC and OC are flawed and should be fired at the end of the season.

I could make arguments pro and con for Morgan, but I wasn't even thinking of him when i said what I said, other than the generic thought that if we have a new head coach, they will almost certainly bring their own position coaches in?

[Mongo3451]

4 hours ago, DABEARSDABOMB said:

My hope is that Fields maybe benefits from watching Bagent a bit and learns from him. Fields is such a special talent, would be stellar to see him improve in his tempo / quick reads. 

His tempo is really terrible.  Everything he does is nonchalant mechanically.  He broadcasts every throw he makes by being too cool.  I'm done with Fields.  He has never shown any sense of urgency.  The dude can't even throw a slant without it being slapped in his face.

Bagent is simply better. (Already)  Faster release, better tempo, stronger decisions, better accuracy, anticipation, blah blah blah.

What talent has Fields displayed that is greater than any of the above?  The eye test is undefeated...

[AZ54]

37 minutes ago, Mongo3451 said:

His tempo is really terrible.  Everything he does is nonchalant mechanically.  He broadcasts every throw he makes by being too cool.  I'm done with Fields.  He has never shown any sense of urgency.  The dude can't even throw a slant without it being slapped in his face.

Bagent is simply better. (Already)  Faster release, better tempo, stronger decisions, better accuracy, anticipation, blah blah blah.

What talent has Fields displayed that is greater than any of the above?  The eye test is undefeated...

Deep accuracy except that isn't on your list.  

[adam]

Fields has several traits that are off the charts in terms of athleticism, but that can only get you so far, and the biggest thing that doesn't get talked about enough is that defenses can take away Fields' strengths, and force him into doing things he is uncomfortable doing. For how athletic Fields is, he negates that with some bad pocket presence and internal clock. For someone who is slower processing things post snap, his only options are getting the ball there late, or not throwing when a player is open, which Fields does quite a bit. 

My fear is that people will think Fields is magically going to improve in areas that he has shown little improvement in over the last 2.5 years. If anything, Fields is going to come back after injury and look worse due to the thumb.

I would stick with Bagent until Fields is 100% which is at least a few more weeks. Rushing him back is not going to help anyone. 

 

[ASHKUM BEAR]

31 minutes ago, adam said:

Fields has several traits that are off the charts in terms of athleticism, but that can only get you so far, and the biggest thing that doesn't get talked about enough is that defenses can take away Fields' strengths, and force him into doing things he is uncomfortable doing. For how athletic Fields is, he negates that with some bad pocket presence and internal clock. For someone who is slower processing things post snap, his only options are getting the ball there late, or not throwing when a player is open, which Fields does quite a bit. 

My fear is that people will think Fields is magically going to improve in areas that he has shown little improvement in over the last 2.5 years. If anything, Fields is going to come back after injury and look worse due to the thumb.

I would stick with Bagent until Fields is 100% which is at least a few more weeks. Rushing him back is not going to help anyone. 

 

I figure at least two more weeks.  I don't think anyone thinks Fields will magically improve, but he has a chance to watch and think about how the offense worked without him.  That is why having competition at all positions is a must. He never earned the job, but was handed it by default.  Let him feel the pressure of competition and that will either make you stronger or destroy you.

[Stinger226]

Fields has some bad traits and we will probably have a new QB next year but  I would like  to see them have the same kind of game plan for him. Our strength is our running game and we are starting to play defense. Quit trying to make him something he's not. I guarantee you if he was in Baltimore, he would look different because Harbaugh does the offense to fit a players strength, not try to make him Aaron Rodgers. Lamar Jackson is similar to Justin but Justin can throw a better deep ball than him. He may never be a  top 10 QB but he definitely can be used better than he has been with Getsy. Roll the pocket, RPOs, and play action. It's not 4 level chess. 

[AZ54]

Very conservative, as expected for a rookie's first start.  We'll need to see more intermediate and middle of the field throws in the future.  It'd be nice to see a deep ball or two in the next game as well.  

https://www.reddit.com/r/CHIBears/s/VHGE35RSfn

[Alaskan Grizzly]

1 hour ago, AZ54 said:

Very conservative, as expected for a rookie's first start.  We'll need to see more intermediate and middle of the field throws in the future.  It'd be nice to see a deep ball or two in the next game as well.  

https://www.reddit.com/r/CHIBears/s/VHGE35RSfn

We know the debate will continue about Justin’s ability to take over as the franchise QB.  But a poster on X-witter compared Bagent’s stats and the play calling versus Justin’s first game of this season against the Pack (eerily similar).  Big difference was the Bears were losing 31-14 going into the fourth quarter before Justin threw the solo pick when the team was “chasing points”. Obviously the defense has improved vastly over the last couple weeks.  

[Daventry]

18 minutes ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

We know the debate will continue about Justin’s ability to take over as the franchise QB.  But a poster on X-witter compared Bagent’s stats and the play calling versus Justin’s first game of this season against the Pack (eerily similar).  Big difference was the Bears were losing 31-14 going into the fourth quarter before Justin threw the solo pick when the team was “chasing points”. Obviously the defense has improved vastly over the last couple weeks.  

Sometimes the imagination of those dreaming up excuses for JF is astounding.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

14 minutes ago, Daventry said:

Sometimes the imagination of those dreaming up excuses for JF is astounding.

Reminds me of a time when Cutler was on his latter years or when Trubisky was the 2nd overall pick.  Here's to dreaming.  

[BearFan PHX]

Loyalty is a great attribute to have in a spouse, partner, neighbor, friend. Its a great thing for a fan to have too. But it's death for a GM.

At some point you have to ask yourself whether you are a fan of a player or of the team. if it's the team, then you have to make the tough decisions about getting rid of players and coaches who might be nice, and trying really hard but who are not helping the team win.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

26 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said:

Loyalty is a great attribute to have in a spouse, partner, neighbor, friend. Its a great thing for a fan to have too. But it's death for a GM.

At some point you have to ask yourself whether you are a fan of a player or of the team. if it's the team, then you have to make the tough decisions about getting rid of players and coaches who might be nice, and trying really hard but who are not helping the team win.

Surely you're not questioning my fandom of the team because I'm a fan of Fields too?  I can guarantee that for the majority of my existence (save when I was five I liked the color purple so I liked the Vikings - it was a one off I promise) nothing has been more dear than my appreciation for the beloved. Technically speaking, since I've been married twice and by your definition I've been more "loyal" to the Bears than most anything else. 

I had a longer response planned for this but suffice to say 'yes' its true I am not the GM who makes his living on making the tough decisions but I can still not like the decisions, that's part of being a fan.  Like when Olsen was traded, or when Urlacher was released, or when Lovie was fired after going 10-6, or when they let Gould walk, or when they drafted Trubisky #2 overall...I could go on. There's been many a time I didn't like or disagreed with what management chose to do.  Despite it all as a fan who watches loyally from the confines of my couch I keep coming back hoping for this year to be 'the year' and for the QB to be 'the guy'.  I'm a believer in Justin (and to some level Tyson too) and until he flips me the bird or tries to steal my wife it'll probably stay that way.  

[BearFan PHX]

Oh Im not calling anyone out on this board personally at all. I'm just saying that in order to build a winning team, a GM has to make heartless decisions.

Im definitely not saying anyone, including a GM, should be rooting against Fields or any player or coach. Its only to our benefit to have players succeed and grow.

And I also agree with you that just because a GM cuts or trades someone doesnt mean its the right decision!

What I AM saying is that we've endured crappy teams so long, we tend to accept mediocrity, or small slivers of hope as if they were progress. And I am as guilty of that as anyone. But Im sick of losing. And while I cannot possibly predict when or if Justin Fields will grow and read defenses quickly, or whether Eberflus will learn and become a great head coach, I CAN say that right now, they aint it, and there is no trend line that tells me they are going to be it either.

Its totally good for us to root for all the players and coaches this year. No reason not to - Carolina has our #1 pick, we dont need to tank for it. I was thrilled to see Bagent this week. Finally we looked like actual football.

But come the offseason, I hope we are ruthless and use the position we currently have with draft and salary cap capital to find players and coaches who can be winners for us. And I also think it's time for a tough disciplinarian coach who doesnt sound as if he is the head of the HR department speaking corporate platitudes. Maybe that's Jim Harbaugh, maybe it's someone else, but i want a real leader at HC and QB who inspires everyone to be better, and who instills fear in anyone that isnt giving their all.

Oh and PS, when I was a little kid and Fran Tarkenton was playing, I liked the Vikings too, much to my dads unhappiness LOL

[Stinger226]

11 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said:

Oh Im not calling anyone out on this board personally at all. I'm just saying that in order to build a winning team, a GM has to make heartless decisions.

Im definitely not saying anyone, including a GM should be rooting against Fields or any player or coach. Its only to our benefit to have players succeed and grow.

And I also agree with you that just because a GM cuts or trades someone doesnt mean its the right decision!

What I AM saying is that we've endured crappy teams so long, we tend to accept mediocrity, or small slivers of hope as if they were progress. And I am as guilty of that as anyone. But Im sick of losing. And while I cannot possibly predict when or if Justin Fields will grow and read defenses quickly, or whether Eberflus will learn and become a great head coach, I CAN say that right now, they aint it, and there is no trend line that tells me they are going to be it either.

Its totally good for us to root for all the players and coaches this year. No reason not to - Carolina has our #1 pick, we dont need to tank for it. I was thrilled to see Bagent this week. Finally we looked like actual football.

But come the offseason, I hope we are ruthless and use the position we currenlty have with draft and salary cap capital to find players and coaches who can be winners for us. And I also think it's time for a tough disciplinarian coach who doesnt sound as if he is the heard of the HR department. Maybe that's Jim Harbaugh, maybe it's someone else, but i want a real leader at HC and QB who inspires everyone to be better, and who instills fear in anyone that isnt giving their all.

Oh and PS, whe I was a little kid and Fran Tarkenton was playing, I liked the Vikings too much to my dads unhappiness LOL

I've been a Bears fan since the late 1960s. Pretty well been losers except some Ditka yrs and when Lovie was here. I dont care who is leading the team , its about winning. The Fields debate is very simple, he has the rest of the year to prove himself or be gone. Im going to root for him as long as he is here.  He has bad tape and some good tape , hopefully he gets better. Poles doesnt owe him anything, play well or he will replace him and I am good with that. I see what you see but think he can improve. Why write him off when he isnt gone yet. It only benefits the team if he does well.   

[Alaskan Grizzly]

33 minutes ago, Stinger226 said:

I see what you see but think he can improve. Why write him off when he isnt gone yet. It only benefits the team if he does well. 

That's pretty much where I'm at.  If he's salvageable and still able to keep/use Bagent then it's a win/win.  Man wouldn't it be nice to draft players that would supplement Fields (Bagent) like MHJ, Fashanu, Alt or Van Pran rather than start all over with another "unknown and unproven" rookie QB?  I get it if it doesn't and agree that Poles doesn't owe him anything especially since Poles would like to keep his job.  

[Stinger226]

33 minutes ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

That's pretty much where I'm at.  If he's salvageable and still able to keep/use Bagent then it's a win/win.  Man wouldn't it be nice to draft players that would supplement Fields (Bagent) like MHJ, Fashanu, Alt or Van Pran rather than start all over with another "unknown and unproven" rookie QB?  I get it if it doesn't and agree that Poles doesn't owe him anything especially since Poles would like to keep his job.  

Im all in if there was a Andrew Luck clone  in the draft but that has not proven to be the case yet. Some experts calling (Williams or Maye) being generational QBs doesnt mean its true. When Mahomes came out, I dont remember any experts calling him generational. He got drafted by a good coach with a good team and sat for a year to learn. He became a great QB. If he was drafted by the Bears at the time, he would never be as good as he is right now. Lots of things have to be in place for a QB to achieve greatness but it also includes good coaching and development. I dont think the right coach is here yet. I think maybe Poles creating magic by trading our high pick and building the team first then maybe drafting a JJ MaCarthy and develop him for a yr. i think lots of choices on the table and maybe sticking with Fields with Bagent backing him up may be the best choice but that still remains to be seen. 

Adding MHJ, a LT, Bowers, Verse or Turner may be better for our future. By the end of the year the picture may be more clear. 

[Alaskan Grizzly]

12 minutes ago, Stinger226 said:

Lots of things have to be in place for a QB to achieve greatness but it also includes good coaching and development.

Some say if Justin were to be traded to Atlanta and work with HC Arthur Smith he might actually get that opportunity to shine. Add in that he's originally from Georgia and the intrigue is even higher.  Oddly enough I read somewhere that Atlanta currently is in the top 5 overall in defense and haven't been that high since 1978!  Which to me is 'odd' considering they used to have Dan Quinn as their HC.  

[BearFan PHX]

I dont have a lot of faith that Fields is gonna ascend, but I totally agree there's no point in shutting him down now - he can have the rest of the year to show himself, or increase his trade value or whatever.

Just as I am also 100% now on firing Eberflus, but I dont mind waiting until the season is over, theres really nothing to be gained by doing it now?

And technically, we still have Fields cheap next year too. In terms of that, theres nothing wrong with keeping him next year. But I think it'd be a mistake to miss taking a first QB this year when we have the high pick(s), and I don't see Fields thriving if he knows hes a placeholder for a competitive rookie.

Thats why I see us moving on from Fields after this year, but youre both compeltetly right, theres no need to end the experiment now. Im just saying Im doubful it will work out, but thats just my guess, I hope Im wrong too, because Fields with rhythm like Bagent would be a killer. Id be a major fan, and sign him to a top deal then...

[Stinger226]

2 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said:

I dont have a lot of faith that Fields is gonna ascend, but I totally agree there's no point in shutting him down now - he can have the rest of the year to show himself, or increase his trade value or whatever.

Just as I am also 100% now on firing Eberflus, but I dont mind waiting until the season is over, theres really nothing to be gained by doing it now?

And technically, we still have Fields cheap next year too. In terms of that, theres nothing wrong with keeping him next year. But I think it'd be a mistake to miss taking a first QB this year when we have the high pick(s), and I don't see Fields thriving if he knows hes a placeholder for a competitive rookie.

Thats why I see us moving on from Fields after this year, but youre both compeltetly right, theres no need to end the experiment now. Im just saying Im doubful it will work out, but thats just my guess, I hope Im wrong.

The trend is he will be gone but he can change that trend if he balls out the rest of the way.(highly doubtful) He does have some talent, his 2 good games this year looked promising but he has to continue that. The potential of taking a good QB and since we will win some games it has to be Panthers playing bad. That is out of our control.

I believe some of his bad can be contributed to bad play calling and a hurt OL. A great QB should overcome that. What if he's just okay? Lot of just okay QBs in the NFL. Cousins, Goff, Prescott, Carr, Geno Smith, and Stafford. Some of them have won in spite of their talent.  I think Poles will evaluate the situation and make the right decision.