A Case for Keeping the Band Together...

[BearFan PHX]

16 minutes ago, Mongo3451 said:

Swifty is off his damn rocker sometimes.  Nobody called Mayfield, Goff and Young generational.

As far as Harrison Jr is concerned; he's a stud, but at what cost.  If drafting him makes us miss out on fixing the offensive and defensive fronts, I'm out.  My hope is that Poles makes a free agent splash to give draft relief for BPA.  

yup. we have a good amount of cap room to spend in free agency. Id sure love to see MHJr on the Bears, but we need line help like you say, and we need a QB too in my opinion.

Line help can come in lots of ways - free agency for sure, and you don't need a top 10 pick to get a center or interior lineman. I do agree that for a franchise left tackle yo do need one - unless we plan on moving Wright there next year?

Id love to see MHJr and one of the top four QBs in the draft, and I agree entirely that those holes on the lines desperately need fixing. Hopefully we can do that in the 2nd and 3rd round and in free agency?

Id love a top 10 pick at QB, WR, OT, DE, 3T, CB but of course we're not gonna get all of them. Still this offseason should leave our roster stocked. Now we need a coaching staff that knows how to use them.

[Stinger226]

46 minutes ago, Mongo3451 said:

Swifty is off his damn rocker sometimes.  Nobody called Mayfield, Goff and Young generational.

As far as Harrison Jr is concerned; he's a stud, but at what cost.  If drafting him makes us miss out on fixing the offensive and defensive fronts, I'm out.  My hope is that Poles makes a free agent splash to give draft relief for BPA.  

Swifty is an overzealous Bears writer that gets clicks. I like that he is always positive but over does it sometimes. We need another edge, center, 3 T, FS and probably  a QB. I dont think we draft a LT high because Braxton keeps getting better. My nightmare is we trade Fields to Atlanta, we draft a QB that takes 2 years to develop and Justin leads Atlanta to a SB appearance. Then we have to compete against him for the next 8 years trying to get a SB appearance. MHJ would be a nice consolation prize if we don't draft a QB high.

[DABEARSDABOMB]

4 hours ago, BearFan PHX said:

There are a lot of great players out there. Marvin Harrison Jr looks like the next coming of Randy Moss. Id LOVE to have him.

but WE NEED A TOP PICK QB. Its not a want, its a NEED.

If Poles can take MHJr with Carolinas pick (or trade to 2 to get him) and then pick up a QB with the second pick in the top of the first round, then fine.

But we NEED TO DRAFT A TOP FIRST ROUND PICK QB. And there is no avoiding that.

If the scouts and Poles determine that one of the QBs is head and shoulders over the rest, we need to take him first. If they rank some of them evenly, and you can still get one at #5 or something, then great.

We also need new coaches.

This and the only thing that would undo that is if Fields goes off in next 7 weeks. Fields and Flus are connected for me. I don’t see any scenario where Bears keep flus and draft a qb or pass on a qb and fire Flus. 
 

 

[BearFan PHX]

1 minute ago, DABEARSDABOMB said:

This and the only thing that would undo that is if Fields goes off in next 7 weeks. Fields and Flus are connected for me. I don’t see any scenario where Bears keep flus and draft a qb or pass on a qb and fire Flus. 
 

 

To me that question has already been answered, but I admit they do have the remaining 7 games no matter what.

I also think that the incoming new coach will be given the decision on Fields. No reason to cut him loose until you have your new coach and he tells you what he wants too? So there is a potential scenario where you keep Fields with a new coach. Like maybe Harbaugh says "are you kidding? this guy is a super Kaepernick and I know JUST how to use that?" But I don't really see that as likely either.

I have been on record as saying that you cant keep Fields if you draft a Caleb Williams, its just too tough on the locker room. But then again, with a new coach coming in, he could certainly say that it'll be a competition starting from scratch. I guess I could see that now.

But all of that is predicated on Fields balling out, or the new coach thinking Fields will ball out for him, and from my perspective I just dont see it. But sports is funny, and stuff happens. Id probably have said Kurt Warner was done when he was carrying boxes in a warehouse too.

But I think your main point stands. Flus and Fields are both fighting for their jobs, and neither one can really succeed unless the other one does too.

[AZ54]

4 hours ago, BearFan PHX said:

To me that question has already been answered, but I admit they do have the remaining 7 games no matter what.

I also think that the incoming new coach will be given the decision on Fields. No reason to cut him loose until you have your new coach and he tells you what he wants too? So there is a potential scenario where you keep Fields with a new coach. Like maybe Harbaugh says "are you kidding? this guy is a super Kaepernick and I know JUST how to use that?" But I don't really see that as likely either.

I have been on record as saying that you cant keep Fields if you draft a Caleb Williams, its just too tough on the locker room. But then again, with a new coach coming in, he could certainly say that it'll be a competition starting from scratch. I guess I could see that now.

But all of that is predicated on Fields balling out, or the new coach thinking Fields will ball out for him, and from my perspective I just dont see it. But sports is funny, and stuff happens. Id probably have said Kurt Warner was done when he was carrying boxes in a warehouse too.

But I think your main point stands. Flus and Fields are both fighting for their jobs, and neither one can really succeed unless the other one does too.

I can remember Warner struggling in the preseason to win the starting job in 2008.  He eventually won the job and then threw for over 4500 yards and took AZ to the Superbowl.   What a wild up and down career he had.    

[BearFan PHX]

3 hours ago, AZ54 said:

I can remember Warner struggling in the preseason to win the starting job in 2008.  He eventually won the job and then threw for over 4500 yards and took AZ to the Superbowl.   What a wild up and down career he had.    

yep, there are always exceptions, but it cuts both ways: Fields could ball out this year and suck next year, or he could be terrible the rest of the year and be great somewhere else too. you never KNOW the future, but you can make some pretty good guesses at it. For example no one expects Trubisky to suddenly be great, and I dont expect Fields to show me skills he has never shown me in the NFL before. Its not certain, but its a pretty good bet.

[madlithuanian]

On 11/10/2023 at 2:19 PM, BearFan PHX said:

So I'm reading all of this, and I have come to the conclusion that you guys would make excellent friends and neighbors. Youre optimistic, forgiving, hopeful and loyal. All excellent personal qualities.

I like to think Im the same. I regularly help my neighbors, Im a good father, I treat people with respect etc.

But when it comes to football, if you want to win, you have to be willing to do what's best for the team, even if it means moving on from people you like. People who are good, and tried their best. People who had a mix of success and failure. No one is 100% terrible. But if you want a winning team, decent isnt good enough, and I dont think Eberflus is quite decent. He's made so many mistakes and poor judgement calls.

I dont blame him for last year's record. Last year he was a caretaker of a tear down - fair enough.

But he has made so many unforced errors this season. I wont even bother to list them all here.

I like Matt Eberflus as a man. He looks like he'd be a great neighbor, teacher and role model. But he is never going to win a Super Bowl for the Chicago Bears, and that alone is enough reason to fire him. Not in anger, but just because you think someone else has a better chance to be the winner we are looking for.

This!  Nice guys make great friends...but rarely great leaders of men.  His teams are not ready (see week 1, etc), they make a ton of unforced errors (false starts, etc), they rack up penalties (see the daily usage of Velus...), he doesn't come in with a good game plan (see Minny), he can't adapt in game (see Denver), he hires people of questionable character (see DC and RB coach), he hand;es the press worse than Selina Meyers' bag man in Veep (stammering, yammering), his vaunted defense has yet to beat anyone or play well against anyone that is remotely a good team (we shall nee...they are improved...but the proof will be in the pudding this Sunday).  There's just too much.  He's in over his head and doesn't give me any semblance of being on top of it.  I wanted Daboll.  Looks like he's a whiff too.  But, fLose ain't it.  We may get a wosre hire.  We tend to do that.  But, he's not it.

 

[BearFan PHX]

40 minutes ago, madlithuanian said:

This!  Nice guys make great friends...but rarely great leaders of men.  His teams are not ready (see week 1, etc), they make a ton of unforced errors (false starts, etc), they rack up penalties (see the daily usage of Velus...), he doesn't come in with a good game plan (see Minny), he can't adapt in game (see Denver), he hires people of questionable character (see DC and RB coach), he hand;es the press worse than Selina Meyers' bag man in Veep (stammering, yammering), his vaunted defense has yet to beat anyone or play well against anyone that is remotely a good team (we shall nee...they are improved...but the proof will be in the pudding this Sunday).  There's just too much.  He's in over his head and doesn't give me any semblance of being on top of it.  I wanted Daboll.  Looks like he's a whiff too.  But, fLose ain't it.  We may get a wosre hire.  We tend to do that.  But, he's not it.

 

Whether at Head Coach, or Quarterback you either have a great one or you don't. If you don't you try again. If they aren't great you try again. You keep trying. But in no case is it a good idea to keep a guy you already have tested and found to be not a winner. Even if they're ok.

We shouldn't just fire losers. We need to fire anyone who doesn't look like a future Super Bowl winner.

The 1 and 2 out of 10 are easy to agree to fire. But what about a 7? If you know they will never be an 8? Theyre nice, competent, decent, better than average. In most professions you promote them, but if you want to win a Super Bowl, in the NFL you fire em and try again. And keep trying until you get a proven winner.

And I think Eberflus' defense sucks. I think our defensive roster is a LOT better than it seems. They have been making incremental but small progress because rookies are learning how to play and players are giving a good effort. But the scheme and playcalling has been awful, and I think with a real DC, this roster would be a LOT better and more fearsome.

We may even win some games on defense on the strength of the roster alone, but we should be much better by now with this much talent.

You cant just call the same cover 2 on 90% of plays. You just can't.

[adam]

21 hours ago, BearFan PHX said:

Whether at Head Coach, or Quarterback you either have a great one or you don't. If you don't you try again. If they aren't great you try again. You keep trying. But in no case is it a good idea to keep a guy you already have tested and found to be not a winner. Even if they're ok.

We shouldn't just fire losers. We need to fire anyone who doesn't look like a future Super Bowl winner.

The 1 and 2 out of 10 are easy to agree to fire. But what about a 7? If you know they will never be an 8? Theyre nice, competent, decent, better than average. In most professions you promote them, but if you want to win a Super Bowl, in the NFL you fire em and try again. And keep trying until you get a proven winner.

And I think Eberflus' defense sucks. I think our defensive roster is a LOT better than it seems. They have been making incremental but small progress because rookies are learning how to play and players are giving a good effort. But the scheme and playcalling has been awful, and I think with a real DC, this roster would be a LOT better and more fearsome.

We may even win some games on defense on the strength of the roster alone, but we should be much better by now with this much talent.

You cant just call the same cover 2 on 90% of plays. You just can't.

On the coaching side you have to also be innovative. I don't see that from anyone on the staff. That also is not trick plays, but on offense, scheming guys open, on defense, masking coverages to confuse the QB. We have the athletes to do it. Our LBs, CBs, and Safeties should be able to show one coverage pre-snap and be athletic enough to get to their "real" assignment area which is what causes the chaos for the QB to decipher. On offense, it feels like Fields has not been used to his full potential again. Almost all of his big runs last year were scrambles and just him making something out of nothing. We need designed runs to do that as well. 

With that said, I don't think Flus/Getsy are innovative enough to beat today's analytics. They are too predictable. 

If the coaching staff is changed, Fields is gone. There is no way he survives to a 3rd HC and OC.

If the coaching staff is retained, that doesn't mean Fields is safe. So that leaves about a 25% chance Fields is the QB next year. For that 25% to occur, he would need to play as a top 10 QB for the remaining 7 games and win 2 out of the next 4. He needs to beat a winning team. 

[madlithuanian]

22 hours ago, BearFan PHX said:

Whether at Head Coach, or Quarterback you either have a great one or you don't. If you don't you try again. If they aren't great you try again. You keep trying. But in no case is it a good idea to keep a guy you already have tested and found to be not a winner. Even if they're ok.

We shouldn't just fire losers. We need to fire anyone who doesn't look like a future Super Bowl winner.

The 1 and 2 out of 10 are easy to agree to fire. But what about a 7? If you know they will never be an 8? Theyre nice, competent, decent, better than average. In most professions you promote them, but if you want to win a Super Bowl, in the NFL you fire em and try again. And keep trying until you get a proven winner.

And I think Eberflus' defense sucks. I think our defensive roster is a LOT better than it seems. They have been making incremental but small progress because rookies are learning how to play and players are giving a good effort. But the scheme and playcalling has been awful, and I think with a real DC, this roster would be a LOT better and more fearsome.

We may even win some games on defense on the strength of the roster alone, but we should be much better by now with this much talent.

You cant just call the same cover 2 on 90% of plays. You just can't.

Agreed!

[BearFan PHX]

yeah tricky and innovative are definitely two different things.

My biggest gripe about the staff is that they don't let the players play, they try to win from the sidelines by limiting exposure for error, and trying to outclever people.

If you believe in your roster, let them play. The most complex offense isnt necessarily the hardest one to defend. The hardest offense to defend is when people do their jobs in tempo. You find the right matchup, get the ball out on time and let your players make a play. That's why I say this staff coaches scared.

[adam]

2 hours ago, BearFan PHX said:

yeah tricky and innovative are definitely two different things.

My biggest gripe about the staff is that they don't let the players play, they try to win from the sidelines by limiting exposure for error, and trying to outclever people.

If you believe in your roster, let them play. The most complex offense isnt necessarily the hardest one to defend. The hardest offense to defend is when people do their jobs in tempo. You find the right matchup, get the ball out on time and let your players make a play. That's why I say this staff coaches scared.

Here is the thing, most media talk about most of the roster as core or returning players. The only apparent holes or where upgrades are needed are at Center, WR2 on offense and 3T and Edge on defense. So 4 player upgrades and this roster magically wins 10 games? Even if you add QB. So say they draft Maye or Williams and add an Edge with the 2x first rounders, then add a Center in the 3rd and pickup a FA 3T and WR2 that are upgrades over Jones and Mooney. Is that complete team winning more games?

[BearFan PHX]

3 minutes ago, adam said:

Here is the thing, most media talk about most of the roster as core or returning players. The only apparent holes or where upgrades are needed are at Center, WR2 on offense and 3T and Edge on defense. So 4 player upgrades and this roster magically wins 10 games?

honestly, this current roster (injuries aside) should have won at least 8 games, maybe more, if they were coached with a growth mentality. you gotta give players opportunities to step up and grow, and not try to micromanage everything into safe little packets.

It's just football. We need new coaches.

[adam]

7 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said:

honestly, this current roster (injuries aside) should have won at least 8 games, maybe more, if they were coached with a growth mentality. you gotta give players opportunities to step up and grow, and not try to micromanage everything into safe little packets.

It's just football. We need new coaches.

Yeah the coaching is bad. I just can't tell if they are only a few players away from being a 10-win team, or are other upgrades needed, and if so, where are they? Like is Stevenson good enough? He is a rookie, but getting torched weekly. The assumption is Eddie Jackson won't be back, there is another hole. 

For how bad the offense has been, is upgrading at Center and a marginal upgrade at WR2 going to make them score 10 more points a game?

[adam]

Like Detroit used 2x first round picks on a RB and LB. If you consider that Monty has looked great and been the bellcow for most of the season, neither of those picks have been that impactful (Gibbs did start a few games with Monty out), but for the season, those two picks are not why they are 7-2. So how did they do it?

[Stinger226]

It takes a lot of things to be a winning team. Upgraded talent will help, better coaching will help, good health cant hurt. For us to get there it has to start showing up now. A better defense is great but we have to start getting TOs and stop turning the ball over. Then we can get on a steak.

[Mongo3451]

It's been trending better guys.  We are number 2 in run offense and 1 in run defense.  The OL is ranked 4 in run and 7 in pass.  That's a huge win given the injuries.  I know Getsy gets a lots crap, but that stat is a part of his offense.  They've held it together on that regard.  At this point, it's up to Justin to hit those guys that are flashing open.

All told, this team is trending up, in year two of the rebuild.  At the end of the season we should look at the blue chip players we have vs two years ago.  A top center and another WR on offense and 3T, edge and safety on defense is the next level.  And probably QB...

[BearFan PHX]

2 hours ago, adam said:

Yeah the coaching is bad. I just can't tell if they are only a few players away from being a 10-win team, or are other upgrades needed, and if so, where are they? Like is Stevenson good enough? He is a rookie, but getting torched weekly. The assumption is Eddie Jackson won't be back, there is another hole. 

For how bad the offense has been, is upgrading at Center and a marginal upgrade at WR2 going to make them score 10 more points a game?

I would say we need upgrades at QB, C, LT, WR

but a good QB and a good Offensive coordinator would squeeze 10 more points a game out of the existing roster.

[ASHKUM BEAR]

Health and confidence goes a long way. Adding youth takes time to build that confidence.  The Bears are rebuilding and the confidence hasn't shown up yet.  A big win will do wonders to a young team.

[AZ54]

2 hours ago, BearFan PHX said:

I would say we need upgrades at QB, C, LT, WR

but a good QB and a good Offensive coordinator would squeeze 10 more points a game out of the existing roster.

Wow, that would put us at 30.4pts/gm and we'd be 2nd in the NFL just behind the Dolphins.  For reference that is way beyond what Andy Reid and Mahomes are doing in KC at 23pts/gm.   Bills are at just 26pts/gm.    Bengals also with one of the best QBs, best WRs in the game...ah forget them we're ahead of them.   Eagles with a good HC, GM, OC, QB, great Oline, and WRs are sitting at a mere 28pts/gm.  

You feel the Oline, WR, RB, and TE talent we have is first rate in the NFL and is only being held back by Fields and Getsy?  

[BearFan PHX]

1 hour ago, AZ54 said:

Wow, that would put us at 30.4pts/gm and we'd be 2nd in the NFL just behind the Dolphins.  For reference that is way beyond what Andy Reid and Mahomes are doing in KC at 23pts/gm.   Bills are at just 26pts/gm.    Bengals also with one of the best QBs, best WRs in the game...ah forget them we're ahead of them.   Eagles with a good HC, GM, OC, QB, great Oline, and WRs are sitting at a mere 28pts/gm.  

You feel the Oline, WR, RB, and TE talent we have is first rate in the NFL and is only being held back by Fields and Getsy?  

nah youre right. How many points a game are we averaging now? I figured I was talking about 24 or 26 points. It feels like we are averaging 16 points a game or something now, but i didnt look it up.

What I am saying is that the coaching staff isnt getting anything near the potential of this roster, and add a real QB and coordinator and youve got something. So I guess I mean adding Mahomes and Reid or something like that.

I think Fields is probably the 20th best QB in the league when he's playing well. Again, Im using numbers as adjectives, i havent actually looked at the list to see if itd be 18 or 22. Its just about where i think his ceiling is.

I do think the RBs are among the leaders in the league now, and so is our OL, although Whitehair and Patrick are not up to it. But Wright, Davis and Jenkins are doing great.

But to turn the question around, do you think wed need superstars to add 10 points to how weve been playing? I feel like weve been on the edge of awful in terms of scoring.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

14 hours ago, AZ54 said:

Bills are at just 26pts/gm.    Bengals also with one of the best QBs,

Bills just fired their OC after Josh Allen is reverting back to his turnover prone ways.  
 

And Burrow went down with yet another injury last night. And from what I just read out for the remainder of the season. With a wrist (?) injury.  

[adam]

2 hours ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

Bills just fired their OC after Josh Allen is reverting back to his turnover prone ways.  
 

And Burrow went down with yet another injury last night. And from what I just read out for the remainder of the season. With a wrist (?) injury.  

The Allen thing is really baffling because you can see he is throwing some bad INTs that are literally losing games for the Bills. He has 11 INTs now in 10 games, and most have been back breaking. He also has 3 fumbles lost, so 14 turnovers in 10 games (Fields has 8 in 6 games).

However, all the stats and metrics (outside of INTs) say he is top 5. He is 4th in QBR, PFF has him graded as the 3rd best QB, he is 5th in DVOA, and has a 96.6 QB Rating (Mahomes has a 96.7). 

[Stinger226]

Listen to Olin on the SCORE today and he made a good point with Justin, he needs to show up late in games 3 or 4 times and they win some of those games. That's what good QBs do. It's about Prime time playing, then we will know if he's the real deal.

[adam]

41 minutes ago, Stinger226 said:

Listen to Olin on the SCORE today and he made a good point with Justin, he needs to show up late in games 3 or 4 times and they win some of those games. That's what good QBs do. It's about Prime time playing, then we will know if he's the real deal.

Yep, that has been missing, virtually no Game Winning Drives.