QB thread

[BearFan PHX]

19 minutes ago, Stinger226 said:

Pick any player in the league and you can do a highlight film and find enough tape to do a lowlight film. Fields isn't there but to ignore good plays isn't realistic. There is such a thing as players get better. Fans have tons of opinions, but former QBs opinions carry more weight. They have been there and done that. Are they all idiots claiming Fields is getting better? I think they know what to look for , everyone is entitled to their opinions.

I didnt pick the plays. Were you the first one ot post the video as evidence? I just watched it and couldnt make it past the first 10 minutes because it was just exactly what i said it was, so I said so, then Grizz asked me to cite my point, so I took the time to make that long post with screenshots and timestamps.

So i didnt pick those plays, but they prove exactly what ive been saying, at least for those four plays - and its not really debateable on those four plays, I posted all the receipts and they are just facts.

Doesnt prove anything but those four plays. But i didnt pick em, they were offered as evidence of the opposite view and i think i debunked em.

Fields is being given receivers open in rhythm and he just isnt pulling the trigger. Over and over. And the he does magical things when the play is broken. he might be the best to ever do broken plays. I get why he looks like a hero to people - but he isnt reading defenses. He isnt throwing the ball on time. Its in the tape if you watch it.

And he isnt getting better at that part of his game. He was better at it last year.

[Stinger226]

6 hours ago, BearFan PHX said:

I didnt pick the plays. Were you the first one ot post the video as evidence? I just watched it and couldnt make it past the first 10 minutes because it was just exactly what i said it was, so I said so, then Grizz asked me to cite my point, so I took the time to make that long post with screenshots and timestamps.

So i didnt pick those plays, but they prove exactly what ive been saying, at least for those four plays - and its not really debateable on those four plays, I posted all the receipts and they are just facts.

Doesnt prove anything but those four plays. But i didnt pick em, they were offered as evidence of the opposite view and i think i debunked em.

Fields is being given receivers open in rhythm and he just isnt pulling the trigger. Over and over. And the he does magical things when the play is broken. he might be the best to ever do broken plays. I get why he looks like a hero to people - but he isnt reading defenses. He isnt throwing the ball on time. Its in the tape if you watch it.

And he isnt getting better at that part of his game. He was better at it last year.

I get it, he doesn't do everything right but a handful of plays doesn't define any QB. He will never be Burrows or Mahomes Not sure he will be as good as Curt Cousins as seeing the field but that doesn't mean he doesn't have value. Several QBs have not looked good against the Vikings pressure defense, they are ranked 8th in the league. Also the first winning team we beat in their house. As several former QBs have stated , they see improvement, I am not sure he is growing fast enough to save his job. 

You did a great job of proving what you are trying to show but the short coming he has are improving. to go along with his good traits. Maybe in your mind , he needs to be a top 5 QB, but he is not a typical QB that can still have growth happening. When condemning Justin they want to say but he lost all those games. It's a team sport, it started out with a bad roster and inconsistent coaching. Of course some of those loses are on him but the key question is can he get better? I think he can but it may not be enough to save his job. The second question is there a better QB prospect than can be a top 5 QB ? That is what GMs get raises for and fired for. It still has to play out. 

This whole scenario is very complex, it's just not as simple as he didn't make his first read or see an open WR in a certain situation. If Poles moves on, just like Justin is our QB, I will support the new QB with as much passion as I did this one. It's not the blind Neanderthal just supporting any team player, I see things you do, it's just  the season isn't over yet.

Chase put the tape out but he did not end up with the same opinion you have, why is that? 

[Pixote]

1 hour ago, Stinger226 said:

Chase put the tape out but he did not end up with the same opinion you have, why is that? 

Maybe because when Chase evaluates Fields, he sees a QUARTERBACK.

When BearFanPHX evaluates Fields, he sees a TURD. (His term of endearment, not mine.)

Makes it hard for him to be objective. 

However, I still love y'all. ?

[Stinger226]

2 minutes ago, Pixote said:

Maybe because when Chase evaluates Fields, he sees a QUARTERBACK.

When BearFanPHX evaluates Fields, he sees a TURD. (His term of endearment, not mine.)

Makes it hard for him to be objective. 

However, I still love y'all. ?

It's OK to have different opinions, we just have different views on what may be best for the Bears. It's not about being right or wrong, Poles is the ultimate say on who will be and I will support what he decides, we are just not finished with the season yet, and I view my team with hope. 

[BearFan PHX]

3 hours ago, Pixote said:

Maybe because when Chase evaluates Fields, he sees a QUARTERBACK.

When BearFanPHX evaluates Fields, he sees a TURD. (His term of endearment, not mine.)

Makes it hard for him to be objective. 

However, I still love y'all. ?

nah, my personal feelings dont come first, Fields' performance comes first. What I said wasnt subjective, it was what the tape shows.

Fields holds the ball too long and doesnt pull the trigger when receivers are at the breaks in their routes, he makes plays after the pay is broken.

Thats not because Im negative or anything, thats just what Fields does. It has nothing to do with me.

[adam]

Part of Fields getting the ball out also has to do with the drop back. I think they messed him up with the opposite foot thing, but I could be wrong. It just feels like even when he is at his back foot, he is not ready to throw. I have also noticed him drifting, maybe he has done that all along, but I have noticed it more recently.

Another factor is play design. I don't know who designed the plays for the Bears offense, but a lot of them actually make things worse/harder. Outside of crazy long down and distances, there should be a short and intermediate target, and an outlet on every play. Depending on the formation, you might have multiple of some routes and even some deep ones. With that said, just based on physics, the shorter routes will come open first unless there is some type of crossing route that is designed to go all the way across the field. Preferably, you would also like the route concepts to come open right to left or left to right, or center and out to one side (normally with boot action). 

With Getsy, I don't see that enough. Watching the all-22, a high percentage of routes look like they are timed for the same timing. Meaning if the QB looks at #2, by the time he looks at #3, it's too late. 

I am not trying to absolve JF1, but there are issues with the offense that are not helping Justin at all.

I have a feeling that they are telling him not to throw over the middle unless you absolutely know you can make the throw because majority of the INTs come off balls to the MoF. I could be wrong, but it feels like that. Go back and watch the PIT game from his rookie year. The speed of the drop back, the timing, it was all there. If not for one of the more BS penalties of all-time, the Bears win that game (Marsh penalty after Correnti hip checked him).

[BearFan PHX]

21 minutes ago, adam said:

Part of Fields getting the ball out also has to do with the drop back. I think they messed him up with the opposite foot thing, but I could be wrong. It just feels like even when he is at his back foot, he is not ready to throw. I have also noticed him drifting, maybe he has done that all along, but I have noticed it more recently.

Another factor is play design. I don't know who designed the plays for the Bears offense, but a lot of them actually make things worse/harder. Outside of crazy long down and distances, there should be a short and intermediate target, and an outlet on every play. Depending on the formation, you might have multiple of some routes and even some deep ones. With that said, just based on physics, the shorter routes will come open first unless there is some type of crossing route that is designed to go all the way across the field. Preferably, you would also like the route concepts to come open right to left or left to right, or center and out to one side (normally with boot action). 

With Getsy, I don't see that enough. Watching the all-22, a high percentage of routes look like they are timed for the same timing. Meaning if the QB looks at #2, by the time he looks at #3, it's too late. 

I am not trying to absolve JF1, but there are issues with the offense that are not helping Justin at all.

I have a feeling that they are telling him not to throw over the middle unless you absolutely know you can make the throw because majority of the INTs come off balls to the MoF. I could be wrong, but it feels like that. Go back and watch the PIT game from his rookie year. The speed of the drop back, the timing, it was all there. If not for one of the more BS penalties of all-time, the Bears win that game (Marsh penalty after Correnti hip checked him).

I think all of this contributes as well for sure. I agree with all of it.

[ASHKUM BEAR]

4 hours ago, adam said:

Part of Fields getting the ball out also has to do with the drop back. I think they messed him up with the opposite foot thing, but I could be wrong. It just feels like even when he is at his back foot, he is not ready to throw. I have also noticed him drifting, maybe he has done that all along, but I have noticed it more recently.

Another factor is play design. I don't know who designed the plays for the Bears offense, but a lot of them actually make things worse/harder. Outside of crazy long down and distances, there should be a short and intermediate target, and an outlet on every play. Depending on the formation, you might have multiple of some routes and even some deep ones. With that said, just based on physics, the shorter routes will come open first unless there is some type of crossing route that is designed to go all the way across the field. Preferably, you would also like the route concepts to come open right to left or left to right, or center and out to one side (normally with boot action). 

With Getsy, I don't see that enough. Watching the all-22, a high percentage of routes look like they are timed for the same timing. Meaning if the QB looks at #2, by the time he looks at #3, it's too late. 

I am not trying to absolve JF1, but there are issues with the offense that are not helping Justin at all.

I have a feeling that they are telling him not to throw over the middle unless you absolutely know you can make the throw because majority of the INTs come off balls to the MoF. I could be wrong, but it feels like that. Go back and watch the PIT game from his rookie year. The speed of the drop back, the timing, it was all there. If not for one of the more BS penalties of all-time, the Bears win that game (Marsh penalty after Correnti hip checked him).

Against Minny, I wonder how the play calling changed after Jenkins injury. It seemed like Kmet and the RBs were not releasing as often as they did at the start. That took away the check down outlet imo.  With twice as much blitzing an offense usually sees, the pressure noticeably affected getting into a rhythm after that first series.  

I need to look up Getsy's media day interview from Thursday to see what he had to say about the game.  

[AZ54]

On 11/30/2023 at 8:40 AM, Stinger226 said:

QBs never play flawless games. this an example of a generational QB that doesnt always plays well. He has a great coach but his OL and weapons arent as great as they once were, so now he makes more average play. That is why I think building a team to support any QB is important. Had Mahomes been with the Bears these last 2 yrs, he would be very average. Fields has more bad than good ,but just lately you are just seeing some flash traits.  Lets face it, players and coaches are measured on wins. Let's see what the last 5 games show us. I want Flus gone but if he wins his last 5 games, he may still be here. If Fields shows you enough growth, Poles may decide to keep him . In the NFL , its about what have you done for me lately. 

I actually want Flus to stay.  I like what he's done with the D and with the team overall.  I'd like him to improve on some things just like everyone else.  The flipside is that it can be very hard finding the leadership in a HC to guide a young team through very tough times.   When he was hired the Bears coordinators jobs weren't exactly a prime job opening among league options.  He took a long time searching for the DC and seemingly finally settled back on "best option" Alan Williams but I never sense that Williams was high on his wishlist.  He went after Luke Getsy pretty aggressively. 

Last year the offense was stuck in the weeds until we had a mini-bye and Eberflus stepped in and changed some things.   I think Getsy just isn't creative enough with the routes for the defense we face each week and it leads to stagnation.  This year the D was stuck in the weeds until Williams was booted and Flus took over.  It's been all upward since then.  That also pulled Flus further away from the offense.  

In summary, looking back over the last 1.7 seasons Flus has been able to make corrections with his roster/staff that improve the performance of the team so I think he gets it.  He also has demonstrated the leadership in keeping the team together and focused.   I don't think he has/had the right coordinators.   He'll be looking for a DC this offseason and that will be a more coveted job this offseason among candidates.  I hope he'll be looking for an OC too.  Like the D there are a lot of good pieces in place now for any talented upstart to build their resume with.  

[Stinger226]

1 hour ago, AZ54 said:

I actually want Flus to stay.  I like what he's done with the D and with the team overall.  I'd like him to improve on some things just like everyone else.  The flipside is that it can be very hard finding the leadership in a HC to guide a young team through very tough times.   When he was hired the Bears coordinators jobs weren't exactly a prime job opening among league options.  He took a long time searching for the DC and seemingly finally settled back on "best option" Alan Williams but I never sense that Williams was high on his wishlist.  He went after Luke Getsy pretty aggressively. 

Last year the offense was stuck in the weeds until we had a mini-bye and Eberflus stepped in and changed some things.   I think Getsy just isn't creative enough with the routes for the defense we face each week and it leads to stagnation.  This year the D was stuck in the weeds until Williams was booted and Flus took over.  It's been all upward since then.  That also pulled Flus further away from the offense.  

In summary, looking back over the last 1.7 seasons Flus has been able to make corrections with his roster/staff that improve the performance of the team so I think he gets it.  He also has demonstrated the leadership in keeping the team together and focused.   I don't think he has/had the right coordinators.   He'll be looking for a DC this offseason and that will be a more coveted job this offseason among candidates.  I hope he'll be looking for an OC too.  Like the D there are a lot of good pieces in place now for any talented upstart to build their resume with.  

I question his conservative play sometimes on O .Not sure If Getsy has full control of play calling or if he gets involved. With all the losses, his team hasn't quit. Imagine being worse in the league in run defense to be first in one year, that's amazing. I think if he wins 3 or more games, he will end up staying.

[AZ54]

21 hours ago, BearFan PHX said:

Also you seemed to discount my post for the length, but to be fair, he asked me to prove what I was saying. If its too long to read, i get that, but its not a rebuttal its just a refuse to engage, which is fair.
 

I don't know about refusal to engage.  Helping my wife fight cancer is my priority.  My in-depth review time is mostly spent reading medical research papers.  I've been able to watch all games via some streaming "links" I came across but not with my usual cadre of family around.  I scan and post here as I can to keep in touch. 

If you want, I'm willing to debate this..  You said Scott was just 2yd beyond the sticks and wide open.  I count the hashes differently and see 6 but called it 5yds.   

I still say if Getsy called that deep of a route, for the "first-read" option, against that pass rush when he only needed 7yd then that's a OC issue not a QB problem.   

If it was supposed to be a 7yd route to get the 1st down; then I don't care if it's backyard football the moment a WR screws up and keeps running past the break point I'm coming off him and looking elsewhere.  As a QB I wouldn't know what you're going to do next and against this pass rush I don't have time to wait and find out.  

I generally don't like focusing on just a few plays in a game and prefer to look at things in aggregate.  Early in the season my assessment was that Fields was often frozen and indecisive and I said so.  by the way, that's exactly what you saw in the Mahomes' film study with Kurt Warner.  That's the best of the best so I have no clue how QBs get into that headspace.  I also said it was time for me to start watching college QBs for the draft. 

Fields started improving around week 5/6 before the injury.  Against Detroit and Minn he is clearly moving through his progressions more quickly.  He's buying time in/around the pocket more often to buy time for receivers to get open.   

I never said it's all good with Fields.  As you showed he over-ran a Kmet block on the rollout forcing himself into a bad spot where he missed the wide open DJ Moore.  There are other examples too.  Yet I see some of that stuff in every game with every QB (again as shown w/ Mahomes).  On balance I don't see Fields as lost in the defensive reads like he was in the first 4 weeks. 

You have made your decision on Fields, which is fine.  You put a lot of effort into getting others to agree with you.  Also your prerogative.  I'm watching and waiting to see how he closes out the season.  I've also come back from watching those college games and concluded there is no Andrew Luck in this class.  I don't think that makes me an apologist for Fields.  I feel I'm simply looking at what gets this team the best chance to win long term.  I don't see any of the top 4 college QBs giving us a better chance than what I see with Fields lately. 

Aside from the best QB option there is the opportunity cost of using another high pick on a QB instead of drafting a Pro Bowl WR or LT (my top options at the moment).  Lots of folks talk about the opportunity cost of the cap hit and that's valid.  Since I don't see any better option in the draft if Fields continues as he's done the last couple games then I would like to see him with DJ Moore on one side and MHJr on the other.  Even if we draft MHJr at #1 overall.  (p.s that doesn't mean I wouldn't grab one of the top 4 QBs in Rd 2 to hedge my bet.  If I can get that pick the opportunity cost in Rd 2 is much lower)  

Last year Poles played his hand early and went for the big haul.  I'm going to bet this year he holds his cards until draft day.  This year everyone knows he might be willing to drop back to 9 again for the big haul.  Or he could draft the top QB.  If he sticks with Fields that could be enough to push the team at #2 or #3 to move up for their QB.  I don't want to drop lower than 3rd overall...yet but that could be enough to garner a 2nd Rd pick.    

 

[Pixote]

1 hour ago, AZ54 said:

I don't know about refusal to engage.  Helping my wife fight cancer is my priority. 

I am so sorry to hear that your wife is fighting cancer. My thoughts and prayers are with your family as you try to handle this terrible burden. 

[BearFan PHX]

3 hours ago, AZ54 said:

I don't know about refusal to engage.  Helping my wife fight cancer is my priority.

Of course I wish her a fast and complete recovery. That's a very bad hand, and I hope the very best for both of you.

As to the route, if it was 5 yard over so be it, but he was wide open for the first down and Fields didnt pull the trigger and found a riskier later option.

All Im saying is

1) Fields doesnt pull the trigger in rhythm when then the receivers make their breaks so the play ends up a broken play all too often

2) Once the play is broken Fields is a superhero that makes plays almost no other QB can make, maybe no other

I wouldnt base an offense on that, but I see the genius. It's fair to disagree about that, that's opinion.

But simply the fact that he doesnt throw to the receivers in tempo in his progressions is true. Whether thats OK or not is opinion, and good people can and do disagree about that?

[adam]

 

7 hours ago, AZ54 said:

I don't know about refusal to engage.  Helping my wife fight cancer is my priority.  My in-depth review time is mostly spent reading medical research papers.  I've been able to watch all games via some streaming "links" I came across but not with my usual cadre of family around.  I scan and post here as I can to keep in touch. 

Oh man, very sorry to hear that. Sending prayers to you, your wife and your entire family. That is not easy. I hope she wins that battle and comes out cancer free. 

[adam]

4 hours ago, BearFan PHX said:

All Im saying is

1) Fields doesnt pull the trigger in rhythm when then the receivers make their breaks so the play ends up a broken play all too often

2) Once the play is broken Fields is a superhero that makes plays almost no other QB can make, maybe no other

I wouldnt base an offense on that, but I see the genius. It's fair to disagree about that, that's opinion.

But simply the fact that he doesnt throw to the receivers in tempo in his progressions is true. Whether thats OK or not is opinion, and good people can and do disagree about that?

That is Fields' fatal flaw right now. I think his internal clock is messed up from all the sacks and hits he has taken. He bails on plays a split second early, and if you think about it, it makes sense. He might see the guy open, but feels by the time he winds up to throw, he is gonna get hit, so it is easier or faster for him to tuck and run. 

 

Off topic question, how many opening drive TDs have the Bears scored this year? Think of a number right now, then scroll down.

v

v

v

v

v

v

v

If you scrolled down, the answer is in the quote.

v

v

v

v

Quote

For some reason, I thought it was a lot more.

 

The Bears as a team have only scored a TD on 4 of 12 opening drives. 3 by Fields and 1 by Bagent.

In those 4 games, they are 1-3.

7 drives resulted in punts, and 1 was a missed 48-yd FG by Santos.

Interestingly enough, they only had one 3-and-out (Bagent against LVR, his first drive as a starter). Of the other 6 drives that resulted in punts, the Bears had 6 plays, 5 plays, 6 plays, 7 plays, 5 plays, and 5 plays respectively for a combined total of 125 yards (21 yds per drive). 

They punted from the 50 on a 4th and 1 against DEN and lost that game.

There were two drives that started within the 15 yd line (from own 12 and own 3). They punted both times and the plays were super conservative. 

 

[Stinger226]

5 hours ago, BearFan PHX said:

Of course I wish her a fast and complete recovery. That's a very bad hand, and I hope the very best for both of you.

As to the route, if it was 5 yard over so be it, but he was wide open for the first down and Fields didnt pull the trigger and found a riskier later option.

All Im saying is

1) Fields doesnt pull the trigger in rhythm when then the receivers make their breaks so the play ends up a broken play all too often

2) Once the play is broken Fields is a superhero that makes plays almost no other QB can make, maybe no other

I wouldnt base an offense on that, but I see the genius. It's fair to disagree about that, that's opinion.

But simply the fact that he doesnt throw to the receivers in tempo in his progressions is true. Whether thats OK or not is opinion, and good people can and do disagree about that?

When he threw 16 completions in a row, I didn't realize those were all broken plays. I get he lacks consistency but to say he can't do something is a little far fetched.

[DABEARSDABOMB]

12 hours ago, AZ54 said:

I don't know about refusal to engage.  Helping my wife fight cancer is my priority.  My in-depth review time is mostly spent reading medical research papers.  I've been able to watch all games via some streaming "links" I came across but not with my usual cadre of family around.  I scan and post here as I can to keep in touch. 

If you want, I'm willing to debate this..  You said Scott was just 2yd beyond the sticks and wide open.  I count the hashes differently and see 6 but called it 5yds.   

I still say if Getsy called that deep of a route, for the "first-read" option, against that pass rush when he only needed 7yd then that's a OC issue not a QB problem.   

If it was supposed to be a 7yd route to get the 1st down; then I don't care if it's backyard football the moment a WR screws up and keeps running past the break point I'm coming off him and looking elsewhere.  As a QB I wouldn't know what you're going to do next and against this pass rush I don't have time to wait and find out.  

I generally don't like focusing on just a few plays in a game and prefer to look at things in aggregate.  Early in the season my assessment was that Fields was often frozen and indecisive and I said so.  by the way, that's exactly what you saw in the Mahomes' film study with Kurt Warner.  That's the best of the best so I have no clue how QBs get into that headspace.  I also said it was time for me to start watching college QBs for the draft. 

Fields started improving around week 5/6 before the injury.  Against Detroit and Minn he is clearly moving through his progressions more quickly.  He's buying time in/around the pocket more often to buy time for receivers to get open.   

I never said it's all good with Fields.  As you showed he over-ran a Kmet block on the rollout forcing himself into a bad spot where he missed the wide open DJ Moore.  There are other examples too.  Yet I see some of that stuff in every game with every QB (again as shown w/ Mahomes).  On balance I don't see Fields as lost in the defensive reads like he was in the first 4 weeks. 

You have made your decision on Fields, which is fine.  You put a lot of effort into getting others to agree with you.  Also your prerogative.  I'm watching and waiting to see how he closes out the season.  I've also come back from watching those college games and concluded there is no Andrew Luck in this class.  I don't think that makes me an apologist for Fields.  I feel I'm simply looking at what gets this team the best chance to win long term.  I don't see any of the top 4 college QBs giving us a better chance than what I see with Fields lately. 

Aside from the best QB option there is the opportunity cost of using another high pick on a QB instead of drafting a Pro Bowl WR or LT (my top options at the moment).  Lots of folks talk about the opportunity cost of the cap hit and that's valid.  Since I don't see any better option in the draft if Fields continues as he's done the last couple games then I would like to see him with DJ Moore on one side and MHJr on the other.  Even if we draft MHJr at #1 overall.  (p.s that doesn't mean I wouldn't grab one of the top 4 QBs in Rd 2 to hedge my bet.  If I can get that pick the opportunity cost in Rd 2 is much lower)  

Last year Poles played his hand early and went for the big haul.  I'm going to bet this year he holds his cards until draft day.  This year everyone knows he might be willing to drop back to 9 again for the big haul.  Or he could draft the top QB.  If he sticks with Fields that could be enough to push the team at #2 or #3 to move up for their QB.  I don't want to drop lower than 3rd overall...yet but that could be enough to garner a 2nd Rd pick.    

 

Excellent post and I agree with your assessment on Poles holding until draft day. 
 

Way more importantly - thoughts and prayers to you and your wife and she fights cancer. freak cancer! 

[Mongo3451]

6 hours ago, Stinger226 said:

When he threw 16 completions in a row, I didn't realize those were all broken plays. I get he lacks consistency but to say he can't do something is a little far fetched.

He didn't say he couldn't do it.  It's that he generally doesn't.  Or offense is designed for YAC and we honestly don't do that well, due to Justin being late.  We often see our receivers fighting for extra yards, due to late delivery.

[Mongo3451]

12 hours ago, BearFan PHX said:

1) Fields doesnt pull the trigger in rhythm when then the receivers make their breaks so the play ends up a broken play all too often

2) Once the play is broken Fields is a superhero that makes plays almost no other QB can make, maybe no other

I wouldnt base an offense on that, but I see the genius. It's fair to disagree about that, that's opinion.

IMO, one and two are spot on.  I often talk with my dad about the Bears and the ups and downs of it all.  What always galvanized me, is that he and I see the game exactly the same.  It's kinda freaky.

To your point of basing an offense, rings the loudest bell.  Pops and I are of the opinion, that offensive football is a symphony.  It must have a tempo set by the conductor, which is Justin.  In football, being on time is the most critical component of every offense.  Snap count, ball fake, line assignments and routes must be at a precise place and time.  For the main piece of the puzzle to be out of sync, that has to be a nightmare for an OC.  The clock is ticking.

[BearFan PHX]

6 hours ago, Stinger226 said:

When he threw 16 completions in a row, I didn't realize those were all broken plays.

 

10 minutes ago, Mongo3451 said:

He didn't say he couldn't do it.  It's that he generally doesn't.  Or offense is designed for YAC and we honestly don't do that well, due to Justin being late.  We often see our receivers fighting for extra yards, due to late delivery.

thank you, and despite his claiming that he is never personal, his comments (like this one above) are FULL of sarcasm.

At this point to say that Fields doesn't have a problem holding on to the ball is just silly. Id entertain diagramming those 16 plays, but since I put in 90 minutes doing it once before and no one bothered to specifically rebut the work, other than AZ pointing out that Scott was 5 yards past the line to gain rather than 2, I will skip even trying.

And to AZ's point, Scott was running at an angle, and when he was open and Fields ready to throw, he wasnt 5 yards past the sticks, that was only a beat later after Fields had already turned away from him.

But either way, if a QB cant pull the trigger on a guy who is wide open for a 12 yard pass for a first down (7 yards to the sticks, plus AZ's 5 to be generous) then he isnt an NFL QB.

[BearFan PHX]

5 minutes ago, Mongo3451 said:

IMO, one and two are spot on.  I often talk with my dad about the Bears and the ups and downs of it all.  What always galvanized me, is that he and I see the game exactly the same.  It's kinda freaky.

To your point of basing an offense, rings the loudest bell.  Pops and I are of the opinion, that offensive football is a symphony.  It must have a tempo set by the conductor, which is Justin.  In football, being on time is the most critical component of every offense.  Snap count, ball fake, line assignments and routes must be at a precise place and time.  For the main piece of the puzzle to be out of sync, that has to be a nightmare for an OC.  The clock is ticking.

AMEN. My Dad and I have the same thing too. We watch the games separately and call each other 3 or 4 times during the game, and we always reference the same plays and see them the same way.

I have said repeatedly that JF may be the best broken play QB ever. But it doesnt translate into points or wins for the most part. It's not an offense.

Thank you Mongo. Sometimes I feel like I am in crazyland here, and the "hate" at this point i feel from most of the group is palpable. Its not the first time in my life that ive gone against popular opinion, and int he past Ive been rejected for it, and proven right afterwards, and funny enough, no one ever remembers me as having been right when that happens, just that I wasnt "with the crowd" - and im fine with it. I couldnt ever lie in order to get along with the mob.

In this case, the emperor is stark naked and it's incredible to me to see the twisting and changing of stories that goes on to hide it. So it is very helpful to see at least someone else sees it too. Thank you!

[ASHKUM BEAR]

45 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said:

AMEN. My Dad and I have the same thing too. We watch the games separately and call each other 3 or 4 times during the game, and we always reference the same plays and see them the same way.

I have said repeatedly that JF may be the best broken play QB ever. But it doesnt translate into points or wins for the most part. It's not an offense.

Thank you Mongo. Sometimes I feel like I am in crazyland here, and the "hate" at this point i feel from most of the group is palpable. Its not the first time in my life that ive gone against popular opinion, and int he past Ive been rejected for it, and proven right afterwards, and funny enough, no one ever remembers me as having been right when that happens, just that I wasnt "with the crowd" - and im fine with it. I couldnt ever lie in order to get along with the mob.

In this case, the emperor is stark naked and it's incredible to me to see the twisting and changing of stories that goes on to hide it. So it is very helpful to see at least someone else sees it too. Thank you!

I don't think anyone hates you.  We know your opinion and see the same stuff but we want JF to develop (not saying you don't).  Maybe he never will.  Next April we will find out what the regime thinks. No need for anyone to say who is right or wrong, we all see the same plays and want the same outcome in the end.  Fans have hated every QB we had in my life and if it wasn't for being a punk ppl loved, McMahon was scrutinized for not being the best. 

[Mongo3451]

56 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said:

Thank you Mongo. Sometimes I feel like I am in crazyland here, and the "hate" at this point i feel from most of the group is palpable.

Nobody hates you.  Remember when grizz was one of the first ones off the Trubisky train.  He took a ton of crap.  I got him a couple times.  In the end, he was the one holding the scepter.  Some folks have more patience, while some see enough.  As of now, I'm 75% out on Fields and hoping the light turns on.

 

[BearFan PHX]

Well I guess some have said they think I want Fields not to succeed so I can be right. Others have been sarcastic etc.

But like I said, none of that will pressure me to change my mind on what my own eyes see on the all 22.

But mostly, I just wanted to point out the difference between facts (Justin usually holds the ball too long until the play is broken and he has to do something heroic) and opinions (we should keep or trade Justin) - for me, I freely admit that what to do with the info is opinion, but to think that Fields doesnt usually hold the ball too long until the play breaks is just factually wrong.

When I watch the game, and cant always see receivers downfield, it looks like Justin is busting his ass out there to make things happen, and doing incredible things. I totally get that. But when you look at the all 22, a different story emerges.

But mostly what is infuriating is the illogical excuses that get made. They drive me crazy. Tell me Im wrong, fine. Prove it with some film or picture or something.

I can tell you easily that i WISH JF would make fast reads - he has so many other skills that would make him unstoppable. But he hasnt progressed in this part of his game, he was actually better at it last year.

But mostly, this isnt about my attitude, or what i want or dont want - none of that makes Fields hold the ball. I dont have supernatural powers or lucky socks or anything like that. I just see what I see, and I continue to be astonished that some other just dont see it!

Now, as Ive said many times before, if you DO see it, but think that Fields heroic efforts are enough to win, then I cant say thats wrong. That is an opinion, and we are all entitled to ours. I cant predict the future, no one can.

But for Gods sake, saying that Fields doesnt hold the ball too long, and doesnt have a problem pulling the trigger is just a fantasy. It couldnt be clearer at this point.

[BearFan PHX]

1 hour ago, ASHKUM BEAR said:

I don't think anyone hates you.  We know your opinion and see the same stuff but we want JF to develop (not saying you don't).  Maybe he never will.  Next April we will find out what the regime thinks. No need for anyone to say who is right or wrong, we all see the same plays and want the same outcome in the end.  Fans have hated every QB we had in my life and if it wasn't for being a punk ppl loved, McMahon was scrutinized for not being the best. 

 

51 minutes ago, Mongo3451 said:

Nobody hates you.  Remember when grizz was one of the first ones off the Trubisky train.  He took a ton of crap.  I got him a couple times.  In the end, he was the one holding the scepter.  Some folks have more patience, while some see enough.  As of now, I'm 75% out on Fields and hoping the light turns on.

 

by the way, thank you both for this. Both posts are extremely reasonable. If it helps I wasnt feeling the "hate" from either of you guys.