Caleb Williams

[adam]

3 hours ago, DABEARSDABOMB said:

Meanwhile - in 3 NFL seasons - Justin Fields consistently makes routine throws look difficult.  We talk about his downfield passing attack - yet the Bears rank 27th in downfield passing advanced stats (despite having Moore).  And we can knock Mooney but Fields has consistently missed Mooney down the field.  Point blank - Fields has shown one thing - he is a mediocre to poor NFL passer, a hard working dude, and a stellar physical athlete at the position.  Unfortunately the poor NFL passer hinders everything else and you really can't win consistently without making massive strides.  Oh and by the way - this is the same knock he had coming out of college and why he fell in the draft (as teams worried how Fields couldn't show the progression progress in his final season at OSU).  

I equate it to the Point Guard that gets some rebounds and hits a few 3-pointers from time to time, but turns the ball over and only gets a few assists. 

[BearFan PHX]

1 hour ago, adam said:

I equate it to the Point Guard that gets some rebounds and hits a few 3-pointers from time to time, but turns the ball over and only gets a few assists. 

exactly. a point guard is improvising within a play, and a selfish one isnt distributing the ball enough.

[fudgeripple2000]

Respect in the locker room is big.

Fields has the respect of his locker room.  Both offense and defense.   As I watch mahomes melting down this season I think there are only a few people that can lead by yelling at players.  The only one that is still playing is Aaron Rodgers.  Manning could and Brady could.  Fields is a different kind of leader.  I watched Caleb melt down last year and I saw different games where he melted down this year.  One in particular he had painted his nails to say "F#%K UTAH."  He then lost that game.  Then fast forward to this year.  The pouting, the off the field comments, the blaming...  Do you want that as the quarter back?

I heard it said that there are three types of quarterback

The one you win because of

The one you win with

The one you win in spite of

Sure Caleb can be a quarterback we win because of.  But the risk is high.  Chicago is rough.  A player has to be resilient.  Caleb has not shown any signs that he is resilient.  

I also find it funny that his replacement in the bowl game yesterday against a ranked opponent had 23/33 372 yds and 6 tds.  Seems like a QB friendly system.

 

Fields is a guy we can win with and worse case scenario if we continue to build this roster he is someone we can win in spite of.

[BearFan PHX]

Just now, fudgeripple2000 said:

Respect in the locker room is big.

Fields has the respect of his locker room.  Both offense and defense.   As I watch mahomes melting down this season I think there are only a few people that can lead by yelling at players.  The only one that is still playing is Aaron Rodgers.  Manning could and Brady could.  Fields is a different kind of leader.  I watched Caleb melt down last year and I saw different games where he melted down this year.  One in particular he had painted his nails to say "F#%K UTAH."  He then lost that game.  Then fast forward to this year.  The pouting, the off the field comments, the blaming...  Do you want that as the quarter back?

I heard it said that there are three types of quarterback

The one you win because of

The one you win with

The one you win in spite of

Sure Caleb can be a quarterback we win because of.  But the risk is high.  Chicago is rough.  A player has to be resilient.  Caleb has not shown any signs that he is resilient.  

I also find it funny that his replacement in the bowl game yesterday against a ranked opponent had 23/33 372 yds and 6 tds.  Seems like a QB friendly system.

 

Fields is a guy we can win with and worse case scenario if we continue to build this roster he is someone we can win in spite of.

all good points, but they seem to me to point toward drafting a different QB (not named Williams) to replace Fields?

[fudgeripple2000]

22 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said:

all good points, but they seem to me to point toward drafting a different QB (not named Williams) to replace Fields?

Touche

I've watched full games of Maye, and the qb out of LSU.  Those are the only ones I imagine we would even consider and I have compared them with Fields.  Obviously I am an idiot armchair quarterback evaluator.  However, for the haul that the number one would get.  We could build an amazing roster with future assets.  With fields and a better O.C. I believe we are a playoff team.  Get a haul this year and next to add with free agents, we are a good playoff team.  

[BearFan PHX]

4 minutes ago, fudgeripple2000 said:

Touche

I've watched full games of Maye, and the qb out of LSU.  Those are the only ones I imagine we would even consider and I have compared them with Fields.  Obviously I am an idiot armchair quarterback evaluator.  However, for the haul that the number one would get.  We could build an amazing roster with future assets.  With fields and a better O.C. I believe we are a playoff team.  Get a haul this year and next to add with free agents, we are a good playoff team.  

Ive been looking at Daniels and Penix too. I'm nowhere near ready to put a marker down on any of them, but I do believe that we need a QB and Fields will never be the player to take us to the promised land. And yes I am an idiot couch QB evaluator too

But yeah, they all have warts and worries, and I'm not particularly sold on Williams at all at this point either.

I also think that if the plan is to build a team around a QB who is less than a franchise star (you called that win in spite of?) then it makes sense to trade Fields because the decision on his 5th year option for the 2025 season is due in may of 2024 right after the draft. And then youre locked into paying him $25Mil a year in 2025. Right now we are still flush with cap space but that's gonna dry up very soon after this season, and some of the younger players start to come due.

So for me, you kinda have to decide in or out on Fields now, and if hes just someone to build around and not the man, then a rookie deal probably fits with that way of thinking better?

[DABEARSDABOMB]

52 minutes ago, fudgeripple2000 said:

Respect in the locker room is big.

Fields has the respect of his locker room.  Both offense and defense.   As I watch mahomes melting down this season I think there are only a few people that can lead by yelling at players.  The only one that is still playing is Aaron Rodgers.  Manning could and Brady could.  Fields is a different kind of leader.  I watched Caleb melt down last year and I saw different games where he melted down this year.  One in particular he had painted his nails to say "F#%K UTAH."  He then lost that game.  Then fast forward to this year.  The pouting, the off the field comments, the blaming...  Do you want that as the quarter back?

I heard it said that there are three types of quarterback

The one you win because of

The one you win with

The one you win in spite of

Sure Caleb can be a quarterback we win because of.  But the risk is high.  Chicago is rough.  A player has to be resilient.  Caleb has not shown any signs that he is resilient.  

I also find it funny that his replacement in the bowl game yesterday against a ranked opponent had 23/33 372 yds and 6 tds.  Seems like a QB friendly system.

 

Fields is a guy we can win with and worse case scenario if we continue to build this roster he is someone we can win in spite of.

So Fields record is awful - is he really one you win with? I do agree the lockeroom likes him - I also imagine at least a few players know what they say but they respect him enough not to actually say it. 

[BearFan PHX]

If a rookie comes in and starts balling the locker room is gonna love him too.

[DABEARSDABOMB]

I also don’t remember anyone ripping on Mitch either? I usually think if the offense is ripping the qb that means they are pretty bad from a culture / fit perspective. Think Zach Wilson last year or they just haven’t been awful or have minimal standing in org so easy to kind of bag on them. 
 

Mitch had lockeroom support and he stinks. Mitch like Justin worked hard and were extremely likable…I also think players respect Fields toughness and athleticism which means less likely anyone says something bad. Doesn’t mean he’s good though. 

[Mongo3451]

End of day; if you win, you are loved.

[Stinger226]

( So Fields record is awful - is he really one you win with? I do agree the lockeroom likes him - I also imagine at least a few players know what they say but they respect him enough not to actually say it.)

 

You can only go by what you know, several players have his back, Moore, Johnson, Kmet, Brisker ,all in interviews totally suported him .Those are team leaders. Hard to think a sect of the team doesnt support him and are just remaiming quiet. They have just went 4-2 in our last 6 games, that is an atmosphere of optimism, not chaos. 

[Alaskan Grizzly]

10 hours ago, DABEARSDABOMB said:

Why we as Bears fans like to make excuses for Fields and not hold him accountable is beyond me.  But reality is - this is a guy who outside of a few games has consistently looked like a poor passing NFL QB with elite athleticism.  If it weren't for the elite athleticism he would have been benched a year ago and been talked about like Zach Wilson (who is a historic bust).  Him and Lance are why I would never go early on a small school QB.  

You’re totally dismissing who Caleb Williams has beaten (San Jose State, Nevada, Az State) and lost to (Wash, Oregon, UCLA and Utah).  In fact in his last 5 games his record is 1-4.  And he skipped out of the aforementioned bowl game. Sure he looks “calm” under fire, who has he played against when he allegedly looks calm?  Compare that to Justin’s collegiate record and tell me who the better prospect is based on that alone. 

[adam]

4 hours ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

You’re totally dismissing who Caleb Williams has beaten (San Jose State, Nevada, Az State) and lost to (Wash, Oregon, UCLA and Utah).  In fact in his last 5 games his record is 1-4.  And he skipped out of the aforementioned bowl game. Sure he looks “calm” under fire, who has he played against when he allegedly looks calm?  Compare that to Justin’s collegiate record and tell me who the better prospect is based on that alone. 

Everything should be taken into consideration during an evaluation. I think you are increasing risk if you just immediately discount anything, whether it is good or bad. 

In those 5 games, Williams put up 322 yds/g, 12 Total TDs, 1 INT, while the offense averaged 34 pts a game and they still went 1-4. 

[Stinger226]

1 hour ago, adam said:

Everything should be taken into consideration during an evaluation. I think you are increasing risk if you just immediately discount anything, whether it is good or bad. 

In those 5 games, Williams put up 322 yds/g, 12 Total TDs, 1 INT, while the offense averaged 34 pts a game and they still went 1-4. 

People like to evaluiate by stats but if you go with your eyes, he play looks like Fields. He plays out of the box all the time, holds the ball a long time and fumbles a lot.

[Stinger226]

I check this website out freqently ( Ourlads) , its run by former  NFL scouts. Their top 32 players has Daniels at 1) Williams at 7) and Maye at 23.

Because of the value of QBs, those 3 will be top 10 picks, if not top 5. I like to look at former scouts sites for obvious reasons. Draft Countdown and GBND report are a few of the other ones. Could we take Daniels at #1?

[adam]

23 minutes ago, Stinger226 said:

I check this website out freqently ( Ourlads) , its run by former  NFL scouts. Their top 32 players has Daniels at 1) Williams at 7) and Maye at 23.

Because of the value of QBs, those 3 will be top 10 picks, if not top 5. I like to look at former scouts sites for obvious reasons. Draft Countdown and GBND report are a few of the other ones. Could we take Daniels at #1?

I guess it depends on what page you are looking at. In their Quarterbacks 2024 Draft Preview, they have Williams #1, Daniels #2: https://www.ourlads.com/story/default/2024-Draft-Preview-Quarterbacks/11509/dh/

 

[Alaskan Grizzly]

3 hours ago, adam said:

In those 5 games, Williams put up 322 yds/g, 12 Total TDs, 1 INT, while the offense averaged 34 pts a game and they still went 1-4. 

In the game against Denver Fields had 335 yards, 4 TDs and 1 INT in a loss.   
 

What happened to being able to carry a team on their back and will them to a win?  ??‍♂️

[ChileBear]

1 hour ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

In the game against Denver Fields had 335 yards, 4 TDs and 1 INT in a loss.   
 

What happened to being able to carry a team on their back and will them to a win?  ??‍♂️

I think we lost that game.

 

[fudgeripple2000]

17 hours ago, Stinger226 said:

( So Fields record is awful - is he really one you win with? I do agree the lockeroom likes him - I also imagine at least a few players know what they say but they respect him enough not to actually say it.)

 

You can only go by what you know, several players have his back, Moore, Johnson, Kmet, Brisker ,all in interviews totally suported him .Those are team leaders. Hard to think a sect of the team doesnt support him and are just remaiming quiet. They have just went 4-2 in our last 6 games, that is an atmosphere of optimism, not chaos. 

Agree, I don't count last year.  It was obviously a tank year.  I imagine that most on this board has played sports and or coached.  I've done both as I am sure most have.  I have also been employed as a strength coach at the university level.  The idea that players will love you when you win is so fragile.  Again, I am an idiot as all of us are.  But I have seen and listened to players behind the scenes.  How you win is important.  Will Williams on the roster foster wins as a team or will he be a look at me dude.  Look at how team mates of wilson (a winner) felt about him.  The chicago fan base will love him if they win.  But if he is a look at me dude his mantle will get heavier.  If you want to know how Williams reacts when the Mantle is heavier just re watch his games from the Utah game last year and his games this year.  If a player can't handle the mantle then we will be right back here in a few years.

[BearFan PHX]

9 minutes ago, fudgeripple2000 said:

Agree, I don't count last year.  It was obviously a tank year.  I imagine that most on this board has played sports and or coached.  I've done both as I am sure most have.  I have also been employed as a strength coach at the university level.  The idea that players will love you when you win is so fragile.  Again, I am an idiot as all of us are.  But I have seen and listened to players behind the scenes.  How you win is important.  Will Williams on the roster foster wins as a team or will he be a look at me dude.  Look at how team mates of wilson (a winner) felt about him.  The chicago fan base will love him if they win.  But if he is a look at me dude his mantle will get heavier.  If you want to know how Williams reacts when the Mantle is heavier just re watch his games from the Utah game last year and his games this year.  If a player can't handle the mantle then we will be right back here in a few years.

from another couch idiot (me) - well said.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

19 minutes ago, fudgeripple2000 said:

If a player can't handle the mantle then we will be right back here in a few years

I believe what you’re referring to are some of the intangibles that don’t show up in the box score. If the locker room (including the GM) are seeing more than we are then I’m pretty sure the decision has already been made what will happen next year. Those of us talking about what we think is best and the so called “experts” really won’t matter at the end of the day. 

[BearFan PHX]

16 minutes ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

I believe what you’re referring to are some of the intangibles that don’t show up in the box score. If the locker room (including the GM) are seeing more than we are then I’m pretty sure the decision has already been made what will happen next year. Those of us talking about what we think is best and the so called “experts” really won’t matter at the end of the day. 

well first off youre right of course that nothing any of us says will make a difference! Still its fun to debate it and think about the different scenarios.

I also agree that Poles knows what he thinks. But if we're getting a new coach, their opinion will play into this too. So he cant 100% know what hes going to do. But if he wasnt 90% sure already, he'd be a terrible GM for sure.

And locker room is definitely a part of it. But so are skills, development, all kinds of stuff.

I want a new coach and a new QB
and I want our GM to hit home runs on both decisions.
I want to go from bottom third to top 5 teams and be feared.
I'd also like to find a billion dollars in a suitcase by the side of the road.
Or maybe better a rich uncle.
Thinking of inheritance taxes, let's make it 2 billion LOL

[Stinger226]

1 hour ago, fudgeripple2000 said:

Agree, I don't count last year.  It was obviously a tank year.  I imagine that most on this board has played sports and or coached.  I've done both as I am sure most have.  I have also been employed as a strength coach at the university level.  The idea that players will love you when you win is so fragile.  Again, I am an idiot as all of us are.  But I have seen and listened to players behind the scenes.  How you win is important.  Will Williams on the roster foster wins as a team or will he be a look at me dude.  Look at how team mates of wilson (a winner) felt about him.  The chicago fan base will love him if they win.  But if he is a look at me dude his mantle will get heavier.  If you want to know how Williams reacts when the Mantle is heavier just re watch his games from the Utah game last year and his games this year.  If a player can't handle the mantle then we will be right back here in a few years.

I played football and ripped my knee in my first yr in college, so that was that.  What I was refering to was, people have supported him, that's on tape, but to assume there are a group that doesnt like him, that's a little over the skis. If you're winning its just a better atmosphere, losing never creats happiness. I think Justin is a hard worker and has a toughness about him that gets respect from fellow players. Im sure 100% of the roster doesnt like him but he doesnt seem to be a ego tripper, doubt he makes trouble in the locker room.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

1 hour ago, BearFan PHX said:

I also agree that Poles knows what he thinks. But if we're getting a new coach, their opinion will play into this too. So he cant 100% know what hes going to do. But if he wasnt 90% sure already, he'd be a terrible GM for sure.

I saw someone else post that Eberflus said he wasn’t sure whether Fields would be the starter next year. Haven’t been able to find that but that could be a telling indicator of things to come…if it were true. 

[BearFan PHX]

8 minutes ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

I saw someone else post that Eberflus said he wasn’t sure whether Fields would be the starter next year. Haven’t been able to find that but that could be a telling indicator of things to come…if it were true. 

I dont think anyone has been told anything definitively?

It seems like in every business everyone is hired until they're fired. You surely dont tell any employee that they are going to be fired until you actually drop the axe.

I suppose it's possible that Poles has told Eberflus that he's back already, but that would be kind of foolish since you never know what the future holds and you dont HAVE to say anything even if Poles is internally 95% that Flus is coming back.

I think whenever that kind of question comes up, and probably they are both smart enough to avoid talking about it, the answer is "after the season we do our season review of every player and coach." and that takes the topic off of the table.

So Flus is right, he doesnt know if Fields will be the starter, because no one "knows" anything yet, including Poles. I mean Poles might be thinking he is 100% on keeping or trading Fields, but if he has a new coach, that guy will have an opinion you gotta weigh too.

You all know I'm in the trade Fields camp. But If I was GM, and somehow I ended up hiring Jim Harbaugh, or Andy Reid by some scenario etc, and they told me they disagreed with me 100%, I'd be a fool not to listen and figure out the best way to accommodate my incoming genius coach. And that'd be true if I was all in on Fields and they wanted him out too.

I think Eberflus and Fields dont "know" anything directly, but probably get best professional guess advice from their agents, who are also smart enough not to be definitive one way or the other, and probably discuss scenarios rather than certain outcomes?

But they might well be telling them "theres a good chance youre back" or "theres a good chance you arent" and that's all about reading Ryan Poles and Kevin Warren, and I wouldnt want to hazard a guess personally. I know what Id do, so I might be tempted to say "theyre smart, theyd do what Id do because i think Im right" but they might also do what it hink is wrong, so what the hell do I know about what Poles thinks?! LOL