Alaskan Grizzly Posted March 20 Report Share Posted March 20 1 hour ago, BearFan PHX said: But then again, Caleb had a crappy surrounding cast and did a lot of things on the field that Justin never did in Chicago. College to NFL = Apples to Oranges 1 hour ago, BearFan PHX said: I think you're reading too much sportwriter narrative here. Caleb has dozens and dozens of plays on tape playing in structure. People may think he looks for home runs too much, but that doesnt mean he doesnt play successfully in structure regularly. Speaking of "structure" Williams is a product of Lincoln Riley's offense who also produced fellow Heisman winners Baker Mayfield and Kyler Murray. And when Williams chose to sit out the Holiday Bowl last year saw backup Miller Moss throw for 372 yards and 6TDs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearFan PHX Posted March 20 Report Share Posted March 20 18 minutes ago, Alaskan Grizzly said: College to NFL = Apples to Oranges you had just said "better surrounding cast, better results" so I said Caleb balled out in College without a surrounding cast. Of tcourse youre right that the better the team, the better the results, but in predicting Justin, who the NFL deemed to be the 4th QB taken, was harder because he had been surrounded by talent, whereas Caleb is doing it without talent. Also, Caleb will be coming into a situation surrounded by talent as well. 20 minutes ago, Alaskan Grizzly said: Speaking of "structure" Williams is a product of Lincoln Riley's offense who also produced fellow Heisman winners Baker Mayfield and Kyler Murray. And when Williams chose to sit out the Holiday Bowl last year saw backup Miller Moss throw for 372 yards and 6TDs. No one projected Mayfield or Murray (or Fields) the way they are projecting Williams. It's just a projection, but it's based on how he plays the position. I think the biggest divide in people talking about QBs is that some respond to physical traits (which are necessary) and others, like me, respond to being football players and playing the position of QB mentally. For example, I would rather have JJ McCarthy than Jayden Daniels. Daniels is the better athlete by far in every way, and so his ceiling is very high, but his floor is also pretty low. He will have to develop a way of thinking he hasnt shown to get there in the NFL. McCarthy has a higher floor. He might have a lower ceiling too athletically, but he knows how to play the position, moving safeties, making reads etc, so he is more of a QB to me. The best is to have both. Williams is a very good athlete. Maybe not quite the athlete that Fields is, but just a tick under that. Certainly not as big. But he has such advanced mental skills and instincts. The way he keeps the pocket going by moving around his linemen and resetting their blocks for them. The way he read defenses and makes choices. ANd his heroball when it all breaks down. He has physical tools, but a lot of players do. Its the mental part of Williams that sets him apart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stinger226 Posted March 20 Report Share Posted March 20 10 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said: you had just said "better surrounding cast, better results" so I said Caleb balled out in College without a surrounding cast. Of tcourse youre right that the better the team, the better the results, but in predicting Justin, who the NFL deemed to be the 4th QB taken, was harder because he had been surrounded by talent, whereas Caleb is doing it without talent. Also, Caleb will be coming into a situation surrounded by talent as well. No one projected Mayfield or Murray (or Fields) the way they are projecting Williams. It's just a projection, but it's based on how he plays the position. I think the biggest divide in people talking about QBs is that some respond to physical traits (which are necessary) and others, like me, respond to being football players and playing the position of QB mentally. For example, I would rather have JJ McCarthy than Jayden Daniels. Daniels is the better athlete by far in every way, and so his ceiling is very high, but his floor is also pretty low. He will have to develop a way of thinking he hasnt shown to get there in the NFL. McCarthy has a higher floor. He might have a lower ceiling too athletically, but he knows how to play the position, moving safeties, making reads etc, so he is more of a QB to me. The best is to have both. Williams is a very good athlete. Maybe not quite the athlete that Fields is, but just a tick under that. Certainly not as big. But he has such advanced mental skills and instincts. The way he keeps the pocket going by moving around his linemen and resetting their blocks for them. The way he read defenses and makes choices. ANd his heroball when it all breaks down. He has physical tools, but a lot of players do. Its the mental part of Williams that sets him apart. I agree the mentality matters a lot but you can't compare college players to pro players. In college maybe 10% of the players they play against will make the pros. It's a lot harder to succeed in the NFL. In College lots of QBs end up with great stats and can't play in the NFL. Is there any scenario where Caleb sits for a year or at least 10 games before starting? Jordan Love played better than expected after sitting. Patrick did the same thing. Does Poles look long term and is patience with his development and sit him for a designated time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearFan PHX Posted March 20 Report Share Posted March 20 29 minutes ago, Stinger226 said: I agree the mentality matters a lot but you can't compare college players to pro players. In college maybe 10% of the players they play against will make the pros. It's a lot harder to succeed in the NFL. In College lots of QBs end up with great stats and can't play in the NFL. Is there any scenario where Caleb sits for a year or at least 10 games before starting? Jordan Love played better than expected after sitting. Patrick did the same thing. Does Poles look long term and is patience with his development and sit him for a designated time? right now, to win one game a month from now, I'd rather have Caleb as my QB than Justin. See, you can compare them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskan Grizzly Posted March 20 Report Share Posted March 20 Meanwhile you may have seen this but RGIII, apparently upset how Fields was treated by Chicago, is encouraging Williams to "pull an Eli" and demand to be traded to Washington. Let's just say many others have feelings about this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stinger226 Posted March 20 Report Share Posted March 20 Here's a video everyone needs to watch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearFan PHX Posted March 20 Report Share Posted March 20 Here's Chase Daniels today, finally on the Williams train. he says everything I've been saying about him, and this film absolutely rebuts the idea that Caleb holds the ball too long, or doesnt make fast reads or work his progressions. You see film like this and you KNOW what youve got. And as an added bonus, he actually meshes on RPO plays, not just lean a little toward the RB. It's all so polished. THIS is why they say he is special, generational, whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stinger226 Posted March 20 Report Share Posted March 20 Just now, BearFan PHX said: Here's Chase Daniels today, finally on the Williams train. he says everything I've been saying about him, and this film absolutely rebuts the idea that Caleb holds the ball too long, or doesnt make fast reads or work his progressions. You see film like this and you KNOW what youve got. And as an added bonus, he actually meshes on RPO plays, not just lean a little toward the RB. It's all so polished. THIS is why they say he is special, generational, whatever. Thanks for posting it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mongo3451 Posted March 20 Report Share Posted March 20 Just now, BearFan PHX said: Here's Chase Daniels today, finally on the Williams train. he says everything I've been saying about him, and this film absolutely rebuts the idea that Caleb holds the ball too long, or doesnt make fast reads or work his progressions. You see film like this and you KNOW what youve got. And as an added bonus, he actually meshes on RPO plays, not just lean a little toward the RB. It's all so polished. THIS is why they say he is special, generational, whatever. You can tell Rodgers is his idol by the way he releases the ball. Good breakdown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stinger226 Posted March 20 Report Share Posted March 20 2 minutes ago, Mongo3451 said: You can tell Rodgers is his idol by the way he releases the ball. Good breakdown I think what he does like Rodgers is movement in the pocket to avoid pressure. He has some good traits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearFan PHX Posted March 20 Report Share Posted March 20 7 minutes ago, Mongo3451 said: You can tell Rodgers is his idol by the way he releases the ball. Good breakdown and the way he makes circles in the pocket, to not only evade rushers, but reattach his blocker to the free defender. It's really incredible. Very few QBs at any level have been able to do this. It does look just like Rodgers. To me the actual release looks like Marino. And the reading and processing, understanding, moving safeties - he gets it. The narratives on him that came from TTT stats are just obviously not true. This is a VERY exciting time for the Bears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearFan PHX Posted March 20 Report Share Posted March 20 we are 12 games back of GB in the all time rivalry. 95 - 107. Caleb needs to get us back on top of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearFan PHX Posted March 20 Report Share Posted March 20 11 minutes ago, Stinger226 said: Thanks for posting it. ^5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stinger226 Posted March 20 Report Share Posted March 20 5 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said: Here's Chase Daniels today, finally on the Williams train. he says everything I've been saying about him, and this film absolutely rebuts the idea that Caleb holds the ball too long, or doesnt make fast reads or work his progressions. You see film like this and you KNOW what youve got. And as an added bonus, he actually meshes on RPO plays, not just lean a little toward the RB. It's all so polished. THIS is why they say he is special, generational, whatever. It doesn't refute the criticism that he holds the ball to long. These are selected plays that show off his talent. 60 plays this year that he held the ball over 6 seconds, that is not an opinion he did that. He holds the ball to long when he gets pressure, and tries to make big plays. When other people say he holds the ball to long, it doesn't mean he does it all the time. It's a general comment. As talented as he is , he's not perfect. This video more than any I seen shows off he special talent. I remember when I showed a Chase Daniels video that praised a game of Justin's and you told me he didn't know anything just because he was an ex QB. Now that he says something you like, you praise him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stinger226 Posted March 20 Report Share Posted March 20 10 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said: and the way he makes circles in the pocket, to not only evade rushers, but reattach his blocker to the free defender. It's really incredible. Very few QBs at any level have been able to do this. It does look just like Rodgers. To me the actual release looks like Marino. And the reading and processing, understanding, moving safeties - he gets it. The narratives on him that came from TTT stats are just obviously not true. This is a VERY exciting time for the Bears. I will give you credit for making some points about Caleb that Chase actually shows breaking down tape instead of just saying it. Maybe you can do that type of stuff to backup your opinions. It's easy to see it and has sold me more on Caleb than all information before this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearFan PHX Posted March 20 Report Share Posted March 20 6 minutes ago, Stinger226 said: It doesn't refute the criticism that he holds the ball to long. These are selected plays that show off his talent. 60 plays this year that he held the ball over 6 seconds, that is not an opinion he did that. He holds the ball to long when he gets pressure, and tries to make big plays. When other people say he holds the ball to long, it doesn't mean he does it all the time. It's a general comment. As talented as he is , he's not perfect. This video more than any I seen shows off he special talent. I remember when I showed a Chase Daniels video that praised a game of Justin's and you told me he didn't know anything just because he was an ex QB. Now that he says something you like, you praise him. no, I said that just because he is an ex QB doesnt mean he is right. That doesnt mean I think he is always wrong either. I think the tape speaks for itself. Caleb is processing and getting the ball out fast and right. I think this is every pass from the game too, or close to it. Not cherry picked. But I am not saying Caleb is good because Daniels says so. I am saying he is good because of the tape, and here is Daniels (who I know some here WILL listen to) highlighting how great I can see Caleb playing with my own eyes. Does that make sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DABEARSDABOMB Posted March 20 Report Share Posted March 20 For the record - we all know I’m a Caleb or bust guy, but so I have my errors all documented, JJ is my next favorite qb prospect, but if you draft JJ he has to sit a year. No rushing him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stinger226 Posted March 20 Report Share Posted March 20 4 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said: no, I said that just because he is an ex QB doesnt mean he is right. That doesnt mean I think he is always wrong either. I think the tape speaks for itself. Caleb is processing and getting the ball out fast and right. I think this is every pass from the game too, or close to it. Not cherry picked. But I am not saying Caleb is good because Daniels says so. I am saying he is good because of the tape, and here is Daniels (who I know some here WILL listen to) highlighting how great I can see Caleb playing with my own eyes. Does that make sense? I posted the video as soon i seen it, after he made some good points, you will never see me push back on Caleb again. Chase shows it to you, that is much easier to absorb his special talent instead of with comments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearFan PHX Posted March 20 Report Share Posted March 20 8 minutes ago, DABEARSDABOMB said: For the record - we all know I’m a Caleb or bust guy, but so I have my errors all documented, JJ is my next favorite qb prospect, but if you draft JJ he has to sit a year. No rushing him. JJ is a winner, and mentally sharp as a QB for sure. I have him #3 behind Maye, but Im not sure Im right about that. JJ is definitely underrated while Jayden Daniels is overrated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearFan PHX Posted March 20 Report Share Posted March 20 4 minutes ago, Stinger226 said: I posted the video as soon i seen it, after he made some good points, you will never see me push back on Caleb again. Chase shows it to you, that is much easier to absorb his special talent instead of with comments. I get that. Every year I see more when I watch tape. Going all the way back to knowing nothing, and being amazed at what John Madden would explain in games. Football education has come a long way, and football strategy continues to evolve too so every year there is new stuff to learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DABEARSDABOMB Posted March 20 Report Share Posted March 20 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskan Grizzly Posted March 20 Report Share Posted March 20 Interesting perspective. Sam Darnold now at 26 vs when he entered the league at 20. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daventry Posted March 20 Report Share Posted March 20 6 hours ago, Alaskan Grizzly said: Meanwhile you may have seen this but RGIII, apparently upset how Fields was treated by Chicago, is encouraging Williams to "pull an Eli" and demand to be traded to Washington. Let's just say many others have feelings about this. I am really surprised at the stance you seem to be taking, anti-everything the Bears do and what most think is the correct path. Enjoy being a rebel? Just for the sake of it? I am really looking forward to getting the draft done and football starting. It’s already clear what the league thought of Fields and soon we will know who the Bears have used their number one pick for. I am very excited and optimistic, for the first time in a long time I think we can win games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskan Grizzly Posted March 20 Report Share Posted March 20 5 hours ago, Daventry said: am really surprised at the stance you seem to be taking, anti-everything the Bears do and what most think is the correct path. Enjoy being a rebel? Just for the sake of it? Sure I like a good healthy debate from time to time but actually I posted this because I was disappointed with RG3 taking this stance. Although he has an interesting perspective (having won the Heisman and nearly being chosen #1 overall) I didn’t really think he should’ve come out to suggest Caleb choose this option. But to your point, offering a counterpoint from time to time is ok here right? As long as it focuses on Bears football and not personal attacks? ~signed Goat’s A$$ Antagonist ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mongo3451 Posted March 20 Report Share Posted March 20 6 minutes ago, Alaskan Grizzly said: I didn’t really think he should’ve come out to suggest Caleb choose this option. I agree. It was an unprofessional, dick move. Totally classless and uninformed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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