Stinger226 Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 On 1/28/2024 at 1:21 PM, BearFan PHX said: and no one knows, even scouts and Poles after they do all their investigations. What they can say is what hi possible ceiling might be, and assign some kind of percentage chance to his reaching it. Neither will be perfect, but together they can help decide whether trading the #1 pick for about 3 first rounders of value is a better or worse deal than taking the player and who they MIGHT become. We do know some things. We know exactly how Fields has been in the league to date. We know what a hypothetical generational QB is worth. We know historically what the likelihood of a QB drafted #1 is to become who they are projected to be. And all to say Im not 100% on Caleb either. Im still researching. But I want the Bears to identify the best QB prospect in this class, and take him in the draft where they think there is a high probability that he will still be available. I am certain that Fields is not the guy to win a superbowl. Some may say that anything is POSSIBLE, and under that logic, it is also POSSIBLE that Mitch Trubisky could lead us to a Superbowl, but since I dont think either are LIKELY, I doubt anyone is clamoring for us to sign Mitch. You gotta play the odds. Nothing is certain, but all outcomes are not even close to similarly likely. Your whole argument is based on Fields isn't good and can't get better. Poles may not have your opinion on Fields. He knows he still has to be a better passer but he may think with a better play caller and better weapons he can do that. He may think if his level is 10 th best QB in the league that he can win a SB with him. Several people have won SBs with non tier 1 QBs. SF may do that this year. He knows Mahomes type QBs are extremely rare. Andrew Luck, Joe Burrows, no one have proven to be that since Mahomes got drafted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearFan PHX Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 17 minutes ago, Stinger226 said: Your whole argument is based on Fields isn't good and can't get better. Poles may not have your opinion on Fields. He knows he still has to be a better passer but he may think with a better play caller and better weapons he can do that. He may think if his level is 10 th best QB in the league that he can win a SB with him. Several people have won SBs with non tier 1 QBs. SF may do that this year. He knows Mahomes type QBs are extremely rare. Andrew Luck, Joe Burrows, no one have proven to be that since Mahomes got drafted. yeah, thats the crux of it. Ive seen enough Fields, and Im done waiting for the light to come on for him. He had this year to show it and he just didnt. There are reasons or excuses why perhaps, but he hasnt done it. He had his chance. There is a reason that everyone except Mel Kiper (lol) says that he isnt worth more than a 2nd round pick. I dont think the league values him as a top 10 starter, or his future development to be that. To your point, who the non tier 1 QBs who won superbowls in the last 20 years, and then lets see if they are better than Fields? You gotta try for a Mahomes, but if you get a Josh Allen, you can work with that. But yes, in everything I say on here you can add something that says "I have made up my mind that Fields will never be the guy for us. I admit i cant predict the future, but this is my strong opinion and I believe there is more than enough evidence to make a strong case that it is extremely unlikely that Fields will be the guy in the admittedly unknowable future." That's just what i think. And I dont think it's close really, it seems blatantly obvious to me. And I think its obvious to the rest of the league too. If we get great trade offers for him, or hear teams talking about trying hard to get him, then that will be evidence that I was wrong about this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DABEARSDABOMB Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 This is a stellar hire. I love what they have been doing with offensive staff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stinger226 Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 8 hours ago, BearFan PHX said: yeah, thats the crux of it. Ive seen enough Fields, and Im done waiting for the light to come on for him. He had this year to show it and he just didnt. There are reasons or excuses why perhaps, but he hasnt done it. He had his chance. There is a reason that everyone except Mel Kiper (lol) says that he isnt worth more than a 2nd round pick. I dont think the league values him as a top 10 starter, or his future development to be that. To your point, who the non tier 1 QBs who won superbowls in the last 20 years, and then lets see if they are better than Fields? You gotta try for a Mahomes, but if you get a Josh Allen, you can work with that. But yes, in everything I say on here you can add something that says "I have made up my mind that Fields will never be the guy for us. I admit i cant predict the future, but this is my strong opinion and I believe there is more than enough evidence to make a strong case that it is extremely unlikely that Fields will be the guy in the admittedly unknowable future." That's just what i think. And I dont think it's close really, it seems blatantly obvious to me. And I think its obvious to the rest of the league too. If we get great trade offers for him, or hear teams talking about trying hard to get him, then that will be evidence that I was wrong about this. If it's obvious to the rest of the league, how are we going to get a great trade offer? I'm not disagreeing with you entirely, I'm suggesting that Poles may not have your opinion and values a bunch of draft capital And roll one more year with Justin. Also could draft a QB prospect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam Posted February 1 Author Report Share Posted February 1 Now Jason Houghtaling (love the name) from the Titans as the Assistant OL Coach. He was the Titans OL Coach. This coaching staff is stacked, super impressed. Apparently the league or coaches don't think that Flus is a lame duck (or they do and know they will be promoted once he is fired lol). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam Posted February 1 Author Report Share Posted February 1 So the Bears essentially have 2x OCs (have called plays before), and multiple position coaches and assistants that have been the primary position coach before. In the past, the Bears would have to hire a parking lot attendant to be a position coach, and a position coach to be a Coordinator. Not this year. Even on the defensive side, Washington, the new DC, has already been a DC and Asst HC before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stinger226 Posted February 1 Report Share Posted February 1 On paper the acquisitions are impressive. The fist hires they made were being as rookie GM and Coach. Now they are systemically putting a plus group of coaches together. That tells us this is a good situation to come to and that Flus is obviously not a lame duck coach. With the new OL hire does that mean Arron Brewer might be considered as a new center? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASHKUM BEAR Posted February 1 Report Share Posted February 1 13 minutes ago, adam said: So the Bears essentially have 2x OCs (have called plays before), and multiple position coaches and assistants that have been the primary position coach before. In the past, the Bears would have to hire a parking lot attendant to be a position coach, and a position coach to be a Coordinator. Not this year. Even on the defensive side, Washington, the new DC, has already been a DC and Asst HC before. It is amazing at the improved coaching the Bears have obtained. It also is damning that this wasn't assembled from the beginning. Would it have made a difference in JF or our record is unknown, but these coaches are coming because they see this team is close and has talent to get there. A huge offseason and the addition of these coaches should help this team get over the hump. If they take Caleb, can they make him successful like Stroud? That will be the thought process of fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mongo3451 Posted February 1 Report Share Posted February 1 7 minutes ago, ASHKUM BEAR said: It is amazing at the improved coaching the Bears have obtained. It also is damning that this wasn't assembled from the beginning. Would it have made a difference in JF or our record is unknown, but these coaches are coming because they see this team is close and has talent to get there. A huge offseason and the addition of these coaches should help this team get over the hump. If they take Caleb, can they make him successful like Stroud? That will be the thought process of fans. I don't see it that way. Nobody wants to come coach for a complete rebuild. Getsy paid a price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam Posted February 1 Author Report Share Posted February 1 1 minute ago, Mongo3451 said: I don't see it that way. Nobody wants to come coach for a complete rebuild. Getsy paid a price. Yep, compared to WAS who basically missed out on all the coaching hires, had OCs turn down the job and stay with their current teams. It makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stinger226 Posted February 1 Report Share Posted February 1 I think we got lucky with so many coaches being fired and good coaches becoming available. Poles and Flus did a great job ( on paper) of adding talent to the coaching staff. The coaches from Seattle, not expected, the coaches from Tennessee, not expected and Tom Brown from Carolina. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASHKUM BEAR Posted February 1 Report Share Posted February 1 19 minutes ago, Mongo3451 said: I don't see it that way. Nobody wants to come coach for a complete rebuild. Getsy paid a price. Right, Getsy was a QB coach who had one of the greatest to coach. He needs some years at OC under a good offensive HC to help him elevate his ability. We got him raw and he didnt rise to the occasion with the pieces he had. If he came to a team with Herbert, he could have been a HC candidate. Flus couldn't lure these hires from the beginning as you stated the Bears were looking to tear down and rebuild from the bottom. Now they are looking good with a talented young roster and the draft pick to select a projected great prospect. I am only pointing out that if the Bears started with better coaching, which would include Flus, would the Bears be better now along with JF. They never target the best to start and it shows. I like this group they have today and it should show with a winning record. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskan Grizzly Posted February 1 Report Share Posted February 1 4 hours ago, ASHKUM BEAR said: Right, Getsy was a QB coach who had one of the greatest to coach. He needs some years at OC under a good offensive HC to help him elevate his ability. Nathanial Hackett was another indicator of that. Failed in Denver after one year and is struggling in NJ without Rodgers playing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearFan PHX Posted February 1 Report Share Posted February 1 5 hours ago, adam said: Now Jason Houghtaling (love the name) from the Titans as the Assistant OL Coach. He was the Titans OL Coach. This coaching staff is stacked, super impressed. Apparently the league or coaches don't think that Flus is a lame duck (or they do and know they will be promoted once he is fired lol). I cant imagine theyre coming here to risk it all on Justin Fields, so this is a strong indication that we are drafting a rookie QB. Now which one? It does look like they're loading up for promotion (or for Waldron to get a HC job) If Eberflus is just the face of the organization, and he lets his coaches do their jobs, and doesnt try to constrain them into being too safe, he could be a successful executive coach. I still worry about his situational errors, like when to go on 4th down and when to take a FG, but i do think they could be successful around Eberflus. Some of these guys look like they might be difference makers. I dont think Eberflus gives you any particular positive edge in winning, but i think we can be successful around him. But if Waldron unlocks the rookie QB, and gets HC offers, Id rather make him our HC than to keep Eberflus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DABEARSDABOMB Posted February 1 Report Share Posted February 1 1 hour ago, Alaskan Grizzly said: Nathanial Hackett was another indicator of that. Failed in Denver after one year and is struggling in NJ without Rodgers playing. It is pretty clear and we are seeing it with more and more reports coming out of NY - the system Hackett and Getzy and them run is really really designed around Rodgers. It is super complicated and really not young QB friendly. With that said - it is working in Green Bay - so maybe that is a testament to Love or its a testament to LaFleur knowing how to teach the structure, etc. It might also be just the fact that Love sat for a few years in that system so he was to a point where he could play in structure and succeed. But yeah - the Bears have definitely upgraded the staff on paper. I also like that they all come from similar trees and Waldron has worked with them all or at least most of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskan Grizzly Posted February 1 Report Share Posted February 1 1 hour ago, DABEARSDABOMB said: With that said - it is working in Green Bay - so maybe that is a testament to Love or its a testament to LaFleur knowing how to teach the structure, etc. Probably a combination of both. As you said before the version of the Hackett/Getsy offense is more complicated for the rookie (younger QBs) aka Fields who was in year one of learning it last year. Love has not only had the benefit of watching Aaron Rodgers play but he also had three years to do it. Now the question will be, similar to how CJ Stroud came out of the gate hot, will Love also be able to maintain it? 1 hour ago, DABEARSDABOMB said: LaFleur knowing how to teach the structure, etc This I think is the key. For Love in GB and with Waldron for 'whomever' it ends up being in Chicago. Waldron, like LaFleur comes from a more reputable 'coaching tree' with the commonality being Kyle Shannahan - Sean McVay. Evidently from an article I read (link below) Waldron not only worked with McVay but when he started out he was in the NE system (up to TE coach) while Belichick was still there before moving to Washington where he joined McVay. When McVay left Waldron followed him to LA. From there we know about his moving to Seattle to work with Pete Carroll. Waldron seems to have more bonafides (at least on paper) and in some product with the rebirth of Geno Smith. https://beargoggleson.com/posts/shane-waldron-checks-all-the-important-boxes-for-chicago-bears/3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearFan PHX Posted February 1 Report Share Posted February 1 1 hour ago, DABEARSDABOMB said: It is pretty clear and we are seeing it with more and more reports coming out of NY - the system Hackett and Getzy and them run is really really designed around Rodgers. It is super complicated and really not young QB friendly. With that said - it is working in Green Bay - so maybe that is a testament to Love or its a testament to LaFleur knowing how to teach the structure, etc. It might also be just the fact that Love sat for a few years in that system so he was to a point where he could play in structure and succeed. Green Bay has cracked the secret sauce, or has just been caught in the momentum of good QB play, that it has worked out that all their QBs sit for a while and learn from someone whos been in the system for a while. There's no substitute for being able to learn from a QB like Favre or Rodgers and see how they execute the same plays you're gonna run over the course of several years. Consistency is really important, but of course it needs to be consistency with something thats good, and not just continuity with some crap LOL I hope the "Waldron tree" takes root in Chicago and we go through several generations of coaches that come out of it, through our system. That would certainly help with QB development no matter who it is in the future. 20 minutes ago, Alaskan Grizzly said: Waldron, like LaFleur comes from a more reputable 'coaching tree' with the commonality being Kyle Shannahan - Sean McVay. Evidently from an article I read (link below) Waldron not only worked with McVay but when he started out he was in the NE system (up to TE coach) while Belichick was still there before moving to Washington where he joined McVay. When McVay left Waldron followed him to LA. From there we know about his moving to Seattle to work with Pete Carroll. Waldron seems to have more bonafides (at least on paper) and in some product with the rebirth of Geno Smith. https://beargoggleson.com/posts/shane-waldron-checks-all-the-important-boxes-for-chicago-bears/3 A freakin men. This sure does look like the start of something great. It's very exciting, and it looks logically built. Maybe this is how Poles builds a staff, and not say, by meeting a guy who is force fed to him 3 days earlier that he kinda has to accept to get the job? If Waldron does well with whoever the Bears QB is next year, who here would rather keep Eberflus and let Waldron go to be a HC somewhere else, rather than replacing Eberflus with Waldron? And Im gonna say - if that happens, then that will remove my only black mark on Poles' record, and I will consider him to be a cool customer indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskan Grizzly Posted February 1 Report Share Posted February 1 43 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said: If Waldron does well with whoever the Bears QB is next year, who here would rather keep Eberflus and let Waldron go to be a HC somewhere else, rather than replacing Eberflus with Waldron? Since we're dealing in hypotheticals, Waldron installed a few of his 'own guys' by bringing over Chad Morton (RB coach) and Kerry Joseph (QB coach). I would think that of the two, Joseph might be in line more for the OC position if either of what you suggest were to occur (Waldron becomes Bears HC or goes somewhere else). ?♂️ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearFan PHX Posted February 2 Report Share Posted February 2 1 hour ago, Alaskan Grizzly said: Since we're dealing in hypotheticals, Waldron installed a few of his 'own guys' by bringing over Chad Morton (RB coach) and Kerry Joseph (QB coach). I would think that of the two, Joseph might be in line more for the OC position if either of what you suggest were to occur (Waldron becomes Bears HC or goes somewhere else). ?♂️ right, I totally agree. So at that point, would you rather keep Waldron as HC, and maintain offensive cohesion all the way to the top with that, or keep Eberflus, because it was his job first, and it isnt really fair to fire him, keep cohesion with the defense, and lose Waldron to another team? All hypothetically that Waldron had made whoever the QB is look great, and was getting offers for HC on other teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskan Grizzly Posted February 2 Report Share Posted February 2 3 hours ago, BearFan PHX said: right, I totally agree. So at that point, would you rather keep Waldron as HC, and maintain offensive cohesion all the way to the top with that, or keep Eberflus, because it was his job first, and it isnt really fair to fire him, keep cohesion with the defense, and lose Waldron to another team? All hypothetically that Waldron had made whoever the QB is look great, and was getting offers for HC on other teams. Think this has been discussed already....BUT....if the team is doing so good that Waldron is being looked at for HC jobs elsewhere then it would be pretty darn difficult to boot the current HC (again in theory the team is doing so well it would seem silly to do so). I don't know that there would be anymore cohesion on the defensive side with Eberflus mostly due to the fact that he and Washington don't appear to have worked together elsewhere. Flus' previous DC Williams was hand-picked (if I remember correctly) because they worked together in Indy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearFan PHX Posted February 2 Report Share Posted February 2 18 minutes ago, Alaskan Grizzly said: Think this has been discussed already....BUT....if the team is doing so good that Waldron is being looked at for HC jobs elsewhere then it would be pretty darn difficult to boot the current HC (again in theory the team is doing so well it would seem silly to do so). I don't know that there would be anymore cohesion on the defensive side with Eberflus mostly due to the fact that he and Washington don't appear to have worked together elsewhere. Flus' previous DC Williams was hand-picked (if I remember correctly) because they worked together in Indy. yeah its a weird play for sure, but I dont think Eberflus really adds much on defense. There no innovation, hes not even particularly aggressive. The roster is great, and most of the defensive glory we attribute to Eberflus is probably better attributed to Sweat and Poles. I dont want to lose Waldron in 2025 (after unlocking a QB) just so we dont do something weird to Flus. Anyway, like I said, these are my exceedingly silly scenarios that only make sense to talk about in February when we have nothing else LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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