Our OL sucked last year

[Stinger226]

I'm an optimist and  viewed the OL as getting  better. With the injuries involved, it was terrible . Swiftly gives the stats for the line in his video. 

We were tied for 5 th (50) in the league in giving up sacks. Had we not had a mobile QB, that total could have been much worse.

We were 26 th in the league in PBC, ( pass blocking efficiency).

We had the worst PAK in the league, 60.4% of the time Fields was under pressure on passing plays. We had a mobile QB , I can't imagine what that would have been with a typical pocket passer.

We were 6th in the league in false starts 24.

We were tied for 4th in holding penalties. 19.  

All those stats show how bad we were in the passing game last year.

Braxton Jones  missed 6 games with injury.

Jenkins missed 5 games with injury.

Our center position was worst in the league with Whitehair, Feeney, and Patrick.

Nate Davis missed 6 games .

Darnell Wright played the whole season and had a typical rookie year.

I think Poles will attack fixing the OL this off-season. We will bring in a center in FAgency and draft one. I think he drafts a Guard high to compete with our starters. I think he drafts an  OT to compete and be the swing OT. We need to upgrade our depth as well as starters.

 

 

[Stinger226]

Here's another video showing stats on how bad our line was.

 

[jason]

Concur. I just don’t know how people actually watched the games last year and come to a different conclusion.

Ruined Cutler.

Ruined Trubisky.

Ruining Fields.

When will this franchise prioritize the OL in order to protect the franchise’s number one asset?

[DABEARSDABOMB]

3 hours ago, Stinger226 said:

I'm an optimist and  viewed the OL as getting  better. With the injuries involved, it was terrible . Swiftly gives the stats for the line in his video. 

We were tied for 5 th (50) in the league in giving up sacks. Had we not had a mobile QB, that total could have been much worse.

We were 26 th in the league in PBC, ( pass blocking efficiency).

We had the worst PAK in the league, 60.4% of the time Fields was under pressure on passing plays. We had a mobile QB , I can't imagine what that would have been with a typical pocket passer.

We were 6th in the league in false starts 24.

We were tied for 4th in holding penalties. 19.  

All those stats show how bad we were in the passing game last year.

Braxton Jones  missed 6 games with injury.

Jenkins missed 5 games with injury.

Our center position was worst in the league with Whitehair, Feeney, and Patrick.

Nate Davis missed 6 games .

Darnell Wright played the whole season and had a typical rookie year.

I think Poles will attack fixing the OL this off-season. We will bring in a center in FAgency and draft one. I think he drafts a Guard high to compete with our starters. I think he drafts an  OT to compete and be the swing OT. We need to upgrade our depth as well as starters.

 

 

This fits fact I think we take an ot at 9. Book end your top qb with first round ots, Jenkins, Davis and a free agent center (plus try to hit some more oline men in draft). 

[Stinger226]

3 hours ago, DABEARSDABOMB said:

This fits fact I think we take an ot at 9. Book end your top qb with first round ots, Jenkins, Davis and a free agent center (plus try to hit some more oline men in draft). 

If we take a OT, Braxton can compete at OG. It builds depth at the least. Bring 3 OL in and let them fight it out for starting jobs. We need at least 8.

[ASHKUM BEAR]

1 hour ago, Stinger226 said:

If we take a OT, Braxton can compete at OG. It builds depth at the least. Bring 3 OL in and let them fight it out for starting jobs. We need at least 8.

I don't see Braxton able to play inside, his biggest struggle is against power/bull rush.  He can pull and move well, but loses ground on straight up pressure.  Going into year 3, he needs to overcome that.

[BearFan PHX]

7 hours ago, ASHKUM BEAR said:

I don't see Braxton able to play inside, his biggest struggle is against power/bull rush.  He can pull and move well, but loses ground on straight up pressure.  Going into year 3, he needs to overcome that.

this is good analysis, it's what I see too.

[Stinger226]

9 hours ago, ASHKUM BEAR said:

I don't see Braxton able to play inside, his biggest struggle is against power/bull rush.  He can pull and move well, but loses ground on straight up pressure.  Going into year 3, he needs to overcome that.

Don't you think that has to do lower body strength and he's working on that? He improved from year one to two in that area. On the outside you're moving back as you engage where on the inside you're in a box when you make contact. He has long arms which would be more useful inside.

 

[Mongo3451]

2 hours ago, Stinger226 said:

Don't you think that has to do lower body strength and he's working on that? He improved from year one to two in that area. On the outside you're moving back as you engage where on the inside you're in a box when you make contact. He has long arms which would be more useful inside.

 

It has less to do with lower body strength than it does footwork and hand fighting.  If you let a DL get into your body, it's over.  Overall mass and strength helps a ton, but guys make it in the NFL on technique.

[ASHKUM BEAR]

1 hour ago, Mongo3451 said:

It has less to do with lower body strength than it does footwork and hand fighting.  If you let a DL get into your body, it's over.  Overall mass and strength helps a ton, but guys make it in the NFL on technique.

I played guard, was short, strong, and fast.  Was a great pulling guard but understood leverage with being short.  6'4 guys with 40-50# on me had trouble because I knew how to get my hands under their shoulder pads and stand them up on their toes.  It was fun a time.  Braxton needs to learn technique and also get stronger. Playing LT is the toughest because you are facing the best who have multiple techniques.  Teams know his struggles and that is usually how they attack knowing JF will feel the pressure and bail. I know Braxton is eager to improve and imagine he will work on this more this offseason. If the Bears don't feel he will make improvements, they might insurance later in the draft.  This will be his prove it year and if he doesn't, look for them to go LT high next year.

[Mongo3451]

38 minutes ago, ASHKUM BEAR said:

I played guard, was short, strong, and fast.  Was a great pulling guard but understood leverage with being short.  6'4 guys with 40-50# on me had trouble because I knew how to get my hands under their shoulder pads and stand them up on their toes.  It was fun a time.  Braxton needs to learn technique and also get stronger. Playing LT is the toughest because you are facing the best who have multiple techniques.  Teams know his struggles and that is usually how they attack knowing JF will feel the pressure and bail. I know Braxton is eager to improve and imagine he will work on this more this offseason. If the Bears don't feel he will make improvements, they might insurance later in the draft.  This will be his prove it year and if he doesn't, look for them to go LT high next year.

Braxton is number three on the needs to improve list.  Center and RG were sub par last last year.  IMO, the center is the key to it all.  We easily led the league in pressures up the middle.  The more I think about it, the more I want to sign the best fee agent center we can find.  After that, draft a stud OG and swing.

[Stinger226]

22 minutes ago, Mongo3451 said:

Braxton is number three on the needs to improve list.  Center and RG were sub par last last year.  IMO, the center is the key to it all.  We easily led the league in pressures up the middle.  The more I think about it, the more I want to sign the best fee agent center we can find.  After that, draft a stud OG and swing.

Definitely not bringing in a OG or OT in free agency so we have to draft them and still will draft a OC. We gave up the worst pressure in the league at the center position, absolutely the most important add on the OL.

[BearFan PHX]

16 hours ago, Mongo3451 said:

Braxton is number three on the needs to improve list.  Center and RG were sub par last last year.  IMO, the center is the key to it all.  We easily led the league in pressures up the middle.  The more I think about it, the more I want to sign the best fee agent center we can find.  After that, draft a stud OG and swing.

for sure. a real center will help a ton.

I do think Davis has talent and ability, and I dont know why he was so inconsistent last year. And of course Jenkins has injury issues. A 3rd OG will help a lot.

I dont think a swing OT is the answer though. I mean, we need one, but I think you either take a guy in the first couple rounds to play OT and Jones becomes the swing, or you roll with Jones one more year and have a swing under him who is less likely to be a starter. Maybe thats what you meant anyway

But I think if youre gonna replace Jones, it has to be with someone excellent. Possibly a name OT with that #9 pick.

[Mongo3451]

57 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said:

for sure. a real center will help a ton.

I do think Davis has talent and ability, and I dont know why he was so inconsistent last year. And of course Jenkins has injury issues. A 3rd OG will help a lot.

I dont think a swing OT is the answer though. I mean, we need one, but I think you either take a guy in the first couple rounds to play OT and Jones becomes the swing, or you roll with Jones one more year and have a swing under him who is less likely to be a starter. Maybe thats what you meant anyway

But I think if youre gonna replace Jones, it has to be with someone excellent. Possibly a name OT with that #9 pick.

I was thinking of keeping Braxton.  He has improved each year.  As far as draft capitol is concerned, I'd rather see a couple receiving weapons, edge, 3T and safety come into play before replacing our LT.

[BearFan PHX]

1 hour ago, Mongo3451 said:

I was thinking of keeping Braxton.  He has improved each year.  As far as draft capitol is concerned, I'd rather see a couple receiving weapons, edge, 3T and safety come into play before replacing our LT.

In the short term youre right. LT is less of a hole than WR, Edge and DT.

But for me, I think it's more important to be sure that when you marry a player for 4+ years, that they're going to be really good at their position. From that point of view, if the right LOT falls to you at #9, and you have them rated over the available WRs, then you take the OT, even though WR is a bigger need today.

This is why GMs usually sign free agents to fill every actual hole on the roster before the draft. Of course those free agents arent usually quality players, unless you spend big $ on them. So they are guys you hope will be rotational players and depth. but having them allows you to take the best player available without having to serve a roster hole by reaching or trading down.

And of course BPA isnt absolute. If you have a great player already on the roster at that position you dont take another one. Kansas City isn't taking Jayden Daniels even if he falls to them. But if you widen out the definition of need to include players you have that are good but not great, like Braxton(?), then you see what Im talking about?

On the other hand, if you think Braxton is just about to take a huge step, and you think he's going to be dominant at his OT position, then you might put him on the "great" list and not a position of "need" even under my expanded definition.

I think Poles is going to bring in more players on the OL than we might expect this year.

And for sure, we need WRs and DL too, so depending on who falls, pick #9 could well go to a WR or DL too. I just wouldnt rule out a LOT at #9.

[Mongo3451]

40 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said:

And for sure, we need WRs and DL too, so depending on who falls, pick #9 could well go to a WR or DL too. I just wouldnt rule out a LOT at #9.

Poles definitely needs to shore up the OL.  It's my only knock on him from last draft.  I wanted him to draft an OG or C with a high pick and he got neither.  I'm still there if he doesn't get one in early FA.  But, I will rule out LT at number 9. There will be a top edge player or WR available.

Speaking of free agency.  I truly believe that will be the tell all.  Because if we are trading the number one, we won't need so many bodies in free agency.  I expect if Poles makes a trade for the one, it will be early, like last year.  Then, if we keep the one, I believe we trade the nine.

 

[BearFan PHX]

43 minutes ago, Mongo3451 said:

Speaking of free agency.  I truly believe that will be the tell all.  Because if we are trading the number one, we won't need so many bodies in free agency.

 

For sure. We will be grabbing a center and FS in free agency 100%

I dont think Poles is trading the #1 pick. I think he will take a QB there, and trade Fields. But I cant predict whether Poles will make what I think would be an error. And you're right, if we dont sign free agents, a trade may be in the works.

But we have a lot of cap space, so i think we will be signing free agents no matter what the plan is, so even if he is trading #1 (please god no lol) he will still be signing free agents.

I think we are at the point in roster building where we need great players, not just more numbers. If you want to trade #9 down to like #20ish so you can get JPJ without overdrafting him, then cool. I get that. But it's because JPJ is great, not because the 3rd rounder youre also gonna pick up is a sure thing to set the world on fire.

I surely wish we had 5 first rounders this year, and could load up the OL, but adding a few more 3rd and 4th rounders isnt gonna be the same thing. We won that gamble and have Braxton Jones as a result. Hes a 5th(?) rounder that has grown a lot into his position. But if we are talking about replacing him with a clear upgrade, thats gonna be a round 1 or round 2 player. and at LOT, its probably round one or you dont do it.

WR is a glaring need. We absolutely need top talent to pair with Moore for whoever the QB is next year. There is every good reason to take WR at #9 too. Ditto DL. But trading down to get a bunch of lower picks isnt going to really fill the larder. That was who the Bears used to be. Now we have a lot of talent on the roster, and so even as we need a bunch of players, they need to be GOOD players, and i think that means taking them higher int he draft than what used to make sense for us when we were more depleted on the roster.

[adam]

The grading systems are so tough, especially if you are looking back at the totality of the season, and not on a snap by snap basis.

What is hard to provide context to: if one OL fails on a play and it counts as a hurry/hit/sack, it obviously impacts his grade AND the play. If two or more OL fail on a play and it only sometimes counts as a hurry/hit/sack, the grading gets out of whack.

If you use PFF, Fields was the most pressured QB in the NFL last year at 48.9%, no other QB with over 400 drop backs was over 45%. Zach Wilson was 2nd at 43.1%. 

Now you have to apply some context to that as well. Fields holds the ball longer than normal, causing some of that pressure, and some was also related to play design. 

 

At the end of the day, both sides can be right. Fields has some self-induced pressures AND the OLine needs to improve, especially at Center.

[BearFan PHX]

21 minutes ago, adam said:

The grading systems are so tough, especially if you are looking back at the totality of the season, and not on a snap by snap basis.

What is hard to provide context to: if one OL fails on a play and it counts as a hurry/hit/sack, it obviously impacts his grade AND the play. If two or more OL fail on a play and it only sometimes counts as a hurry/hit/sack, the grading gets out of whack.

If you use PFF, Fields was the most pressured QB in the NFL last year at 48.9%, no other QB with over 400 drop backs was over 45%. Zach Wilson was 2nd at 43.1%. 

Now you have to apply some context to that as well. Fields holds the ball longer than normal, causing some of that pressure, and some was also related to play design. 

 

At the end of the day, both sides can be right. Fields has some self-induced pressures AND the OLine needs to improve, especially at Center.

In the second half of the season especially, we were being destroyed up the middle. When pressure comes from outside, a QB should be able to step up into the pocket and deliver a ball. When it comes up the middle the throw is going to be contested and the QB is going to get hit, maybe even as he is throwing. The flip side of this is why having a disruptive 3T can make a defensive front go.

This is all stuff everyone here already knows, and all of us know that we need a new center too. It's a no brainer. We all agree on this one!

And since we're building the line for this opening competitive window, a foundational type player would be great at that position. There are a few free agents that fit that description including a couple who are young too, and at least one real candidate in the draft expected to go in the bottom third of the first round.

My gut is to think we are getting a presumed multi year starter in free agency or a trade. We will want to have that nailed down before the draft, and starting a rookie center isnt always the best idea with a 1) rookie QB or 2) struggling vet QB that needs to show something now

On the other hand, I wouldnt expect that starting rookies in the secondary is a very wise move either, and yet we have done it a lot with success under Eberflus and Poles. And they put a 5th round OT into the fire at left tackle right away too, and started Wright at RT immediately last year too. So if this administration does that, maybe they can start a JPJ too.

On possible strategy would be to sign a free agent center that can play guard too, and then draft JPJ (trade down pick #9 or use picks from a Fields trade - JPJ should go around pick #20) with the idea that JPJ can win the job in camp, or during the season, and when that happens, the free agent competes with Jenkins and Davis for playing time. I can also see us bringing in a free agent guard and drafting one lower in the draft too. I think Poles will create a lot of competition in the OL room this year.

And none of this to address whether Braxton Jones can be upgraded. Personally I think he's been growing well, but if things fall a certain way and a true foundational player is available at OT you gotta look at that too.

[jason]

8 hours ago, adam said:

The grading systems are so tough, especially if you are looking back at the totality of the season, and not on a snap by snap basis.

What is hard to provide context to: if one OL fails on a play and it counts as a hurry/hit/sack, it obviously impacts his grade AND the play. If two or more OL fail on a play and it only sometimes counts as a hurry/hit/sack, the grading gets out of whack.

If you use PFF, Fields was the most pressured QB in the NFL last year at 48.9%, no other QB with over 400 drop backs was over 45%. Zach Wilson was 2nd at 43.1%. 

Now you have to apply some context to that as well. Fields holds the ball longer than normal, causing some of that pressure, and some was also related to play design. 

 

At the end of the day, both sides can be right. Fields has some self-induced pressures AND the OLine needs to improve, especially at Center.

I tell people this all the time and nobody ever recalls how bad the OL has been. The problem is with PFF stats it can be incredibly misleading. Four linemen doing well on each play still results in pressure.

Play 1-LT fails

Play 2-LG fails

Play 3-C fails

Play 4-RG fails

Play 5-RT fails

That results on four linemen grading out at 80%, but a QB who faces 100% pressure rate. Especially last year, that’s how it felt watching Fields. 

[Stinger226]

On 2/24/2024 at 2:51 AM, Mongo3451 said:

I was thinking of keeping Braxton.  He has improved each year.  As far as draft capitol is concerned, I'd rather see a couple receiving weapons, edge, 3T and safety come into play before replacing our LT.

If Jones is the worst player on the line with Waldron playing 2 TEs  more frequently, they can slide him help. We will have a pretty good line. 

Poles first year he went after Brandon Allen and Joe Noteboom, and Ryan Bates. He struck out on all of them but Noteboom and Allen ended up being hurt that year anyways.

Last year he brought in Wright and Davis. Wright went thru growing pains as a rookie and Davis mother was sick and died. He played well above average previous years but his mom's death got in his head and was bad. Jenkins isn't going to be healthy for 17 games and Whitehair dropped off big time. Patrick just isn't very good. 

This year he will target the OL and good depth. There will be another OT brought in to push Braxton or at least add good depth. Probably thru the draft.

With Jenkins not finishing seasons, he will add a high level draftee that can start. I totally believe Davis will be ready to go , last year was an outlier. 

I believe he will draft a OC and bring in a high level free agent that can play both OC-OG. That's 4 or maybe 5 new bodies. He's supposed to be a OL guru,  and he won't let the line fail again.