Yet another Caleb Williams Red Flag

[BearFan PHX]

4 hours ago, DABEARSDABOMB said:

There was a deep dive done a week or so ago…I got to find the link. It talked about how long Williams held the ball and how the analytics person was very concerned. 
 

He than broke it down to how often he holds to pass and how much time he creates. It turns out the most comparable college player to Williams from TTT and effective scramble time was Aaron Rodgers.

Both Rodgers and Williams had an ability over multiple seasons to move around in and around the pocket and buy far more time to make down field passing plays. 
 

When they took splits further they realized Williams standard deviaition is extreme - he has tons of plays with low TTT but than when he does scramble he buys more time than anyone to throw. It goes back to - he isn’t fields. Who had similar TTT but standard deviaition was extremely high TTT and it was a lot of unforced rushes and created pressures. 
 

Williams might bust but I really only see him busting due to injury. I think he is going to be a solid NFL starter with high end upside. Not going to say he is the next Mahomes or Brady cause well that just isn’t fair. 

And this stupid stuff about his dad. Have you seen his dad in front of the media on all the combine stuff this weekend? I haven’t seen him all over tv or anything just some nasty media people doing what they do…kind of like that nasty report a few years ago that implied Fields was lazy. 
 

His dad is involved and engaged but he isn’t this dope a lot on here make him out to be. The Lavar Ball comps are nuts - that guy was everywhere and anywhere overstepping his son. Carl is the opposite - he is engaged but behind the scenes and doing what he thinks is best for his son. Never have I got this view it is all about Carl - with Lavar it was always all about him. 
 

That toxicity is from teams trying to do anything to push a narrative to get what they want. Like all this no Bears talk - guarantee that was from other teams in draft pushing a bias to see if they could make it a thing. When you here Caleb talk - you don’t here one drop of it. He just wants to be a top pick and be great. Is he arrogant - yes but so is every all time great qb. 

I agree with all of this.

I think now from having watched a bunch of film on Williams, that he has all the tools on the field, physical and mental. I think if he busts it will be either, as you said, because of injury, or because the Bears didn't develop him properly. There's a lot here riding on Waldron's shoulders. I think he knows what he's doing, but the Bears have been so snakebit with QBs. That's not a predictive fact or anything, just Bears fan PTSD lol

Anyway, I'm not predicting failure at all, I'm just saying I think development is now where any concern about Williams busting should go, and not to Williams' incoming skill set, abilities or strengths and weaknesses. He's got it all, now Waldron needs to do his part. And of course Poles needs to upgrade his protection and get him weapons.

[Mongo3451]

The reasons I don't want Caleb have nothing to do with talent.  I truly believe his talent is immense.

I don't want:

My leader crying to his mother in front of the world.  It's just pathetic 

My leader drawing attention to himself, while he's already the focal point.  It's a direct sign, that something other than team first is in play. (Painted nails)

My leaders Dad looking for ways to circumvent the CBA.  It's disrespectful to his senior peers that paved the way for him.  It also speaks volumes to the major pain in the ass negotiations will be on the rookie deal, let alone the franchise QB deal.

My leader to willfully sit out of the medical evaluations, making it harder for teams to determine his level of health.

My leader to not have an agent.  We all know that has future drama written all over it.

My leader to have teammates celebrate winning by making targeted references about him that paints a negative image.

I truly believe he has superior footwork and arm talent.  From what I understand, he also has a tremendous work ethic.  Respective to his expected draft position, he has the highest boom to bust ratio.  And if he busts, it will be a devastating blow to the franchise and fan base.  My preference is for less disaster in the bust portion.  Those QBs would be Maye, McCarthy and Penix. (And Justin)

This is my sole opinion, from my weekend long vibe, with input from my father and trusted friends.

[Stinger226]

1 minute ago, Mongo3451 said:

The reasons I don't want Caleb have nothing to do with talent.  I truly believe his talent is immense.

I don't want:

My leader crying to his mother in front of the world.  It's just pathetic 

My leader drawing attention to himself, while he's already the focal point.  It's a direct sign, that something other than team first is in play. (Painted nails)

My leaders Dad looking for ways to circumvent the CBA.  It's disrespectful to his senior peers that paved the way for him.  It also speaks volumes to the major pain in the ass negotiations will be on the rookie deal, let alone the franchise QB deal.

My leader to willfully sit out of the medical evaluations, making it harder for teams to determine his level of health.

My leader to not have an agent.  We all know that has future drama written all over it.

My leader to have teammates celebrate winning by making targeted references about him that paints a negative image.

I truly believe he has superior footwork and arm talent.  From what I understand, he also has a tremendous work ethic.  Respective to his expected draft position, he has the highest boom to bust ratio.  And if he busts, it will be a devastating blow to the franchise and fan base.  My preference is for less disaster in the bust portion.  Those QBs would be Maye, McCarthy and Penix. (And Justin)

This is my sole opinion, from my weekend long vibe, with input from my father and trusted friends.

As you point out, it's not his football skills that will doom him, it's his excessive ego that presents the image he wants to be treated special. Character issues are important to Poles. Waldron has been up close and personal wit him at that football school, he would have input into how coachable he is. Poles passes on the best player in the draft last year because of that. He will throw a hissy fit if not drafted #1.

[BearFan PHX]

Sometimes the best players in a sport are arrogant and not "team first" personalities. Michael Jordan wasn't humble. He was arrogant and driven as a winner.

When Caleb cried, it was because they didn't win. It means that much to him. i think you want that in a player. The opposite would be Jay Cutler for example.

I get greatness vibes from Williams. Obviously nothing is guaranteed right now, and the Bears could screw him up too, but as a lump of clay to be molded, I see potential for greatness and an attitude that goes with it. I'm not mad at that at all. In fact, I predict that if Williams does develop like he can, he will outrank the coaches on the team within a few years. I think he has the character makeup to drag this franchise into winning whether they cooperate or not.

[Bears4Ever_34]

Williams is going to be great. I think he's virtually dispelled just about every myth that has come out over the past few months, ranging from his height, to his leadership, to his willingness to play in Chicago. This has been a pretty rough week for all his detractors. 

He seems like a good kid who handles himself well despite the absurdities of his father constantly trying to do dumb shit that his son gets blamed for. 

He'll be the most talented quarterback prospect the Bears have ever drafted. If you can't get excited about that, I think you're probably lying to yourself.

[BearFan PHX]

43 minutes ago, Bears4Ever_34 said:

Williams is going to be great. I think he's virtually dispelled just about every myth that has come out over the past few months, ranging from his height, to his leadership, to his willingness to play in Chicago. This has been a pretty rough week for all his detractors. 

He seems like a good kid who handles himself well despite the absurdities of his father constantly trying to do dumb shit that his son gets blamed for. 

He'll be the most talented quarterback prospect the Bears have ever drafted. If you can't get excited about that, I think you're probably lying to yourself.

I agree. And I think there are reasons why people might be lying to themselves that are common and normal.

For one, around this time of year, whoever was the presumptive #1 pick is always being criticized. New faces are trending upward, and winner fatigue sets in. I think it's a natural human dynamic. But it doesnt really have anything to do with Caleb's abilities or future - it's just a normal thing that happens every year.

Maybe i'ts that the proclaimed savior of the draft every year is only a human being, and once the hype outpaces the player, then the player can look lacking. But it's just a trick, they didn't change, the narrative did.

Also, we've been snakebit at QB so many times. I've personally had a feeling of dread about Williams, but I could not say why. I finally had to realize that it was cynicism or fear of blowing it or something. Try as I might, I couldnt find any external evidence for that feeling, but I still had it, so I figure it must be normal for us Bears fans.

And some group probably is still feeling salty about Justin, or has their eyes on a big haul of picks - neither should really take any shine off of Caleb Williams. Even if someone legitimately believes that the haul of picks is a better deal, if it doesn't happen they should still be excited about Williams.

But I do think it's time for people to accept the situation and realize what an amazing opportunity this is. Potentially this could end up to be the best and most important player in Bears history.

[Bears4Ever_34]

1 hour ago, BearFan PHX said:

And some group probably is still feeling salty about Justin, or has their eyes on a big haul of picks - neither should really take any shine off of Caleb Williams. Even if someone legitimately believes that the haul of picks is a better deal, if it doesn't happen they should still be excited about Williams.

I wholeheartedly believe this sentiment explains 99% of the blowback against Caleb Williams. I think you can throw out the draft haul part of it. There is a subsection of "fans" who legitimately are losing their minds over the possibility of Justin Fields being traded. They've dug themselves into the idea that he's good—in my opinion, due to the insane amount of social media trolling that took place last year during that 5 or 6 game stretch where he actually played well. I think now there's been a massive over-correction on the other side of the argument with people who are now defending Fields out of spite. 

The Caleb hate is coming primarily from these same people sublimating their frustrations on to him. A perfect example of this would have been after the Notre Dame game. It was embarrassing to see how many Bears fans were celebrating it. Even if the Bears weren't going to take him at the time, you still should want to see him play well to make the pick more valuable, but they didn't care—which just goes to show how irrational and insecure they've become. It dilutes the entire conversation.

[BearFan PHX]

14 minutes ago, Bears4Ever_34 said:

I wholeheartedly believe this sentiment explains 99% of the blowback against Caleb Williams. I think you can throw out the draft haul part of it. There is a subsection of "fans" who legitimately are losing their minds over the possibility of Justin Fields being traded. They've dug themselves into the idea that he's good—in my opinion, due to the insane amount of social media trolling that took place last year during that 5 or 6 game stretch where he actually played well. I think now there's been a massive over-correction on the other side of the argument with people who are now defending Fields out of spite. 

The Caleb hate is coming primarily from these same people sublimating their frustrations on to him. A perfect example of this would have been after the Notre Dame game. It was embarrassing to see how many Bears fans were celebrating it. Even if the Bears weren't going to take him at the time, you still should want to see him play well to make the pick more valuable, but they didn't care—which just goes to show how irrational and insecure they really are.

I think this too, but I was trying not to offend those people.

Justin is a B level QB who cant win tough games. He is an amazing open field runner. He reminds me of Hester, who also was a threat to score every time he got into the open field, but was also unable to learn to play his offensive position.

[Stinger226]

20 minutes ago, Bears4Ever_34 said:

I wholeheartedly believe this sentiment explains 99% of the blowback against Caleb Williams. I think you can throw out the draft haul part of it. There is a subsection of "fans" who legitimately are losing their minds over the possibility of Justin Fields being traded. They've dug themselves into the idea that he's good—in my opinion, due to the insane amount of social media trolling that took place last year during that 5 or 6 game stretch where he actually played well. I think now there's been a massive over-correction on the other side of the argument with people who are now defending Fields out of spite. 

The Caleb hate is coming primarily from these same people sublimating their frustrations on to him. A perfect example of this would have been after the Notre Dame game. It was embarrassing to see how many Bears fans were celebrating it. Even if the Bears weren't going to take him at the time, you still should want to see him play well to make the pick more valuable, but they didn't care—which just goes to show how irrational and insecure they've become. It dilutes the entire conversation.

There is a big difference of thinking Justin is great or he can get better plus add numerous blue chip players.

I trust Poles to make the right choice. Williams might end up being great , Poles knows the answer to that. Many are Justin fans on here and still know  that Williams may be the better choice, it's okay to not be absolute with our opinions .

 

 

 

 

[Alaskan Grizzly]

4 hours ago, Mongo3451 said:

The reasons I don't want Caleb have nothing to do with talent.  I truly believe his talent is immense.

I don't want:

My leader crying to his mother in front of the world.  It's just pathetic 

My leader drawing attention to himself, while he's already the focal point.  It's a direct sign, that something other than team first is in play. (Painted nails)

My leaders Dad looking for ways to circumvent the CBA.  It's disrespectful to his senior peers that paved the way for him.  It also speaks volumes to the major pain in the ass negotiations will be on the rookie deal, let alone the franchise QB deal.

My leader to willfully sit out of the medical evaluations, making it harder for teams to determine his level of health.

My leader to not have an agent.  We all know that has future drama written all over it.

My leader to have teammates celebrate winning by making targeted references about him that paints a negative image.

I truly believe he has superior footwork and arm talent.  From what I understand, he also has a tremendous work ethic.  Respective to his expected draft position, he has the highest boom to bust ratio.  And if he busts, it will be a devastating blow to the franchise and fan base.  My preference is for less disaster in the bust portion.  Those QBs would be Maye, McCarthy and Penix. (And Justin)

This is my sole opinion, from my weekend long vibe, with input from my father and trusted friends.

Word.  I’ll co-sign on this.  Apples to apples comparison collegiality, Justin and Williams measure out similarly.  Records-wise and competition-wise (IMHO) Justin has the edge.   He also has a leadership edge (collegiately) based on things like advocating with the Big 10 commissioner to play during COVID.  
 

That being said, if the coaches think Justin is damaged goods (because of the first three years of abuse/neglect in the NFL), then I’m good with moving on.  Whether it be Maye, McCarthy, Daniels or Nix I’ll learn to cope. Just can’t bring myself to get excited about Williams. 

[Mongo3451]

13 minutes ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

Word.  I’ll co-sign on this.  Apples to apples comparison collegiality, Justin and Williams measure out similarly.  Records-wise and competition-wise (IMHO) Justin has the edge.   He also has a leadership edge (collegiately) based on things like advocating with the Big 10 commissioner to play during COVID.  
 

That being said, if the coaches think Justin is damaged goods (because of the first three years of abuse/neglect in the NFL), then I’m good with moving on.  Whether it be Maye, McCarthy, Daniels or Nix I’ll learn to cope. Just can’t bring myself to get excited about Williams. 

Have Skip and Shannon ever agreed?  ??

[Alaskan Grizzly]

4 hours ago, Mongo3451 said:

Have Skip and Shannon ever agreed?  ??

This time they appear to do. 

[adam]

Quote

In dispatching his scouts to all-star games, Poles directed evaluators to ask about the 2022 Heisman winner when they interviewed Oklahoma or USC players, or others that crossed paths with Williams. The returns there were good. Sometimes, you can get awkward pauses, if players are lukewarm on teammates they’re asked about. It was the opposite in this case. The mention of Williams’s name brought about a lot of smiles.

In interviewing then USC assistant Kliff Kingsbury for their offensive coordinator job in Los Angeles in January, the Bears did a ton of fact-finding. Kingsbury described a player beloved by his coaches and teammates, and also gave the Bears very real insight into Williams’s father, and how involved he was. The quarterback’s dad, Kingsbury told them, was sharp, and someone that Williams leaned on a lot business-wise. But the father left the football part to his kid; Kingsbury explained to Chicago he saw the dad maybe once last year at USC’s practice facility.

And there was, of course, the film part of evaluating. Maybe the most interesting part (to me, at least) is how Poles’s background with the Kansas City Chiefs, working under GMs John Dorsey and Brett Veach, changed the way he, and so many other scouts, looked at the quarterback position. In identifying, drafting, and then watching the career of Patrick Mahomes, all those people learned to put a greater premium on creativity and playmaking at the position.

That left the Bears to come to Indianapolis for the combine to move into the final stages of the process of firming up their quarterback plan.

On Wednesday night at 10:40 p.m. (the second-to-last window of the night), Chicago had its formal interview with Williams in the suites of Lucas Oil Stadium. Poles was joined by the five people who are the point men in the Williams evaluations process: head coach Matt Eberflus, offensive coordinator Shane Waldron, pass-game coordinator Thomas Brown, assistant GM Ian Cunningham and team president Kevin Warren.

What they saw from Williams in that setting was an easy confidence, a player who was very comfortable in his own skin and not concerned much with what other people thought of him. That last part is key, because the Bears have tried to drill down on making sure the person they pick first can handle the pressure and spotlight of the Chicago market.

Williams checked that box. The next one came Friday night, when the Bears brass got a chance to sit down and meet with the quarterback’s team, as a precursor to the 30 visit.
 

Here is a good chunk of info from the MMQB and Albert Breer (might need to expand the quote). Seems like there is a lot of media-driven narrative about Williams. Similar to what Fields went thru about his work ethic (which was completely false). 

The more info that comes out, the more I get excited about the prospect of picking Williams #1, and this has nothing to do with how I feel about Fields. 

[Stinger226]

32 minutes ago, adam said:

Here is a good chunk of info from the MMQB and Albert Breer (might need to expand the quote). Seems like there is a lot of media-driven narrative about Williams. Similar to what Fields went thru about his work ethic (which was completely false). 

The more info that comes out, the more I get excited about the prospect of picking Williams #1, and this has nothing to do with how I feel about Fields. 

If he passes all the character tests by Poles, he will be drafted by Poles.

[Mongo3451]

53 minutes ago, adam said:

Here is a good chunk of info from the MMQB and Albert Breer (might need to expand the quote). Seems like there is a lot of media-driven narrative about Williams. Similar to what Fields went thru about his work ethic (which was completely false). 

The more info that comes out, the more I get excited about the prospect of picking Williams #1, and this has nothing to do with how I feel about Fields. 

Blows my theory straight to Hades.  I honestly need to stop looking at QBs, if this is correct.

[Stinger226]

There is a problem blowing in the wind right now. With Caleb not doing the medicals at the Combine, the Bears tried to schedule his visit on Tuesday and he blew them off . It won't happen for a few weeks. No way Poles is trading Justin without doing the  physical on Williams. Poles ain't going to bank that his medical is okay with that number one pick so it will screw up the time line. A bad decision on Caleb's part. Bad JuJu.

[adam]

1 hour ago, Stinger226 said:

There is a problem blowing in the wind right now. With Caleb not doing the medicals at the Combine, the Bears tried to schedule his visit on Tuesday and he blew them off . It won't happen for a few weeks. No way Poles is trading Justin without doing the  physical on Williams. Poles ain't going to bank that his medical is okay with that number one pick so it will screw up the time line. A bad decision on Caleb's part. Bad JuJu.

If this is true, against what Albert Breer just put out this morning, then there is no way they will draft him. Poles can't wait that long to make a decision. They still may draft a QB, but it won't be Williams.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

2 hours ago, Stinger226 said:

If he passes all the character tests by Poles, he will be drafted by Poles.

So was the story of Warren firing Cliff Stein for ‘alleged leaks’ back in January all a smokescreen?  Why didn’t the Bears hire Kingsbury as OC  even after (allegedly) going all the way to the West Coast to talk to him about Caleb?  

[DABEARSDABOMB]

24 minutes ago, adam said:

If this is true, against what Albert Breer just put out this morning, then there is no way they will draft him. Poles can't wait that long to make a decision. They still may draft a QB, but it won't be Williams.

It isn't true.  Breer isn't making it up, Biggs isn't making it up, etc.  And if it were true - every talking head on ESPN would be talking all about it.  

[adam]

13 minutes ago, DABEARSDABOMB said:

It isn't true.  Breer isn't making it up, Biggs isn't making it up, etc.  And if it were true - every talking head on ESPN would be talking all about it.  

Stinger said he heard it on the SCORE? I only listened to the Biggs part, and he is sold on the Bears drafting Williams. He basically said with all the info leading up to today, he has never been more confident in a Bears draft selection. So posters pointed out that is makes sense because the Bears never had the #1 pick before since Biggs has been on the beat. 

[Mongo3451]

Can we please not post rumors as fact? Unless Poles, Flus, Schefter or Rappaport put it out there, it's a rumor.  GM's talk to those two guys first because they are verified as trustworthy.  We're gonna get a lot of people talking shit over the next 7 weeks.  I will only believe those four.  And maybe Grizz, if he has Trubisky news...

[Alaskan Grizzly]

8 minutes ago, Mongo3451 said:

And maybe Grizz, if he has Trubisky news

Well at least I’m a “trusted source”.  ? 

[adam]

16 minutes ago, Mongo3451 said:

Can we please not post rumors as fact? Unless Poles, Flus, Schefter or Rappaport put it out there, it's a rumor.  GM's talk to those two guys first because they are verified as trustworthy.  We're gonna get a lot of people talking shit over the next 7 weeks.  I will only believe those four.  And maybe Grizz, if he has Trubisky news...

Albert Breer is not a trusted source? He is probably one of the top 3 or 4 dudes. He doesn't post rumors. 

[Mongo3451]

3 minutes ago, adam said:

Albert Breer is not a trusted source? He is probably one of the top 3 or 4 dudes. He doesn't post rumors. 

He's trusted.  I just narrowed my list to the ones GM's call.  I'm not sure if he's one of them or not.

[BearFan PHX]

4 hours ago, adam said:

The more info that comes out, the more I get excited about the prospect of picking Williams #1, and this has nothing to do with how I feel about Fields. 

Me too. Two weeks ago I had doubts, but now that I've watched more film, and seen Caleb's interviews, I'm all in.

And I think a lot of the anti Caleb stuff is really just leftover pro Fields stuff. If you remove Fields-love from the equation, we are looking at one of the best prospects coming into the NFL in quite a long time.

Man, Fields really played with some people's heads.