Has any generational QB prospects ever won a SB?

[Stinger226]

Seen this on Twitter.

Brady and Mahomes were never considered generational.

Who ? Andrew luck - no

Trevor Lawrence - no

Joe Burrows - no

Eli Manning was never stated to be generational 

Aaron Rodgers was never called generational 

Russell Wilson was never considered generational

Matt Stafford wasn't 

 

Can anyone think of somebody? 

Maybe Peyton Manning, was he considered generational? 

In the last 20 years only Manning won one SB that was considered a generational prospect. 

 

[adam]

I think you can probably come up with 20+ categories that define QBs in a different way that could show that group winning or losing SBs. 

I also don't think Caleb Williams is generational. I think that is really hard to do in football because you are so dependent on 10 other players and your coaches. So if we all call Caleb Williams the best college QB ever, is that going to change any outcomes?

If the Bears draft a QB, they believe the projection and value going forward are greater than what Fields can provide.

If they keep Fields and trade down, they believe Fields coupled with the draft haul give the Bears the best chance at sustained success. 

 

[Stinger226]

F3 AA

1 hour ago, adam said:

I think you can probably come up with 20+ categories that define QBs in a different way that could show that group winning or losing SBs. 

I also don't think Caleb Williams is generational. I think that is really hard to do in football because you are so dependent on 10 other players and your coaches. So if we all call Caleb Williams the best college QB ever, is that going to change any outcomes?

If the Bears draft a QB, they believe the projection and value going forward are greater than what Fields can provide.

If they keep Fields and trade down, they believe Fields coupled with the draft haul give the Bears the best chance at sustained success. 

 

 I'm not big on picking specific stats to push a narrative but just thought this was interesting  with so many people calling Caleb generational. Simply put, A history of not winning SBs . one in 20 years is not a wishy wash statistic. 

I think it says more about the analysis process putting  labels on QBs. Brady was a 6th round pick that became the best QB ever and Mahones was the third QB taken in his draft. I think they are just hard to find and hard to win SBs.

[BearFan PHX]

Williams isn't generational or ANYTHING in the NFL yet. What he is is the best prospect coming out of college in many years.

Some people are so in love with Justin that they willingly ignore an amazing opportunity right in front of them, which I think is crazy.

Great QBs picked #1 overall who won superbowls: Peyton Manning, John Elway, Terry Bradshaw, Troy Aikman, Eli Manning.

But if this same old argument is coming around that since Mahomes was picked #10 youre better off drafting at #10 than #1, that is so off base. Im not even gonna go through it again.

[Mongo3451]

That's the way I feel about Maye.  There are a lot of YouTube video breakdowns out there now.  There are flaws, but damn the package is there.  You guys should check him out.  I personally think the media is sand bagging.

[BearFan PHX]

27 minutes ago, Mongo3451 said:

That's the way I feel about Maye.  There are a lot of YouTube video breakdowns out there now.  There are flaws, but damn the package is there.  You guys should check him out.  I personally think the media is sand bagging.

I am looking forward to learning more about him! All the stats are good, but I dont believe anything, positive or negative until I see the film, but that said, I have reasons for optimism based on what I've read for sure. Part of the reason for my delay is I'm waiting for some of my favorite film sources to post their Maye videos.

The media sandbags, but a lot of the time they dont even know theyre doing it. They look at some stats, and then a narrative evoleves, and then it just echoes around and often there is no truth to it at all, not because the reporters are lying on purpose, but because they are lazy and didnt watch the tape.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

1 hour ago, BearFan PHX said:

Great QBs picked #1 overall who won superbowls: Peyton Manning, John Elway, Terry Bradshaw, Troy Aikman, Eli Manning.

In the current “Super Bowl era” 24 QBs have been selected #1 overall.  Of those 7 have played in and won a Super Bowl.  Of the 58 Super Bowls played so far those 7 (~12%) have contributed to 15 Super Bowl wins (~26%).  Do you really think Williams is good enough to be in that top 25% of all QBs ever picked?  If so, how?  Where does he rate against those other 7 that makes you so convinced he’s that “elite”?  

 

1 hour ago, BearFan PHX said:

Some people are so in love with Justin that they willingly ignore an amazing opportunity right in front of them, which I think is crazy

Others have recently commented on your dismissal of those of us who are still in the Fields camp. And frankly I’m growing tired of it.  You continuously volley covert commentary like calling out Fields’ supporters as “crazy” (above) or “delusional” and it’s gotten old.   If you want to stick to pure facts and compare I’m good with it. Save the pettiness for somewhere else.

So far I’ve seen nothing (on paper) that convinces me that Williams is the next best thing.   For me the stats that Fields left collegiately were better than Williams. His overall record far outpaced Williams against much better competition to include the college playoffs . When he faced adversity, both physically (vs clemson 2021) and otherwise (COVID Big 10) he didn’t wither on the vine.  Save the “he’s a great guy and terrific athlete” BS because that’s lazy. Williams’ highlight films and NFL prospectus (“takes too many sacks” and is ‘fantastic at improvisation’) point to a younger Justin.  Yet when Justin does it, he’s a failure.  To tell me Williams is better, collegiately, is just simply not true. And to compare him to how well he’ll measure up to Fields professionally is skeptical at best.  

[BearFan PHX]

1 hour ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

In the current “Super Bowl era” 24 QBs have been selected #1 overall.  Of those 7 have played in and won a Super Bowl.  Of the 58 Super Bowls played so far those 7 (~12%) have contributed to 15 Super Bowl wins (~26%).  Do you really think Williams is good enough to be in that top 25% of all QBs ever picked?  If so, how?  Where does he rate against those other 7 that makes you so convinced he’s that “elite”?  

 

Others have recently commented on your dismissal of those of us who are still in the Fields camp. And frankly I’m growing tired of it.  You continuously volley covert commentary like calling out Fields’ supporters as “crazy” (above) or “delusional” and it’s gotten old.   If you want to stick to pure facts and compare I’m good with it. Save the pettiness for somewhere else.

So far I’ve seen nothing (on paper) that convinces me that Williams is the next best thing.   For me the stats that Fields left collegiately were better than Williams. His overall record far outpaced Williams against much better competition to include the college playoffs . When he faced adversity, both physically (vs clemson 2021) and otherwise (COVID Big 10) he didn’t wither on the vine.  Save the “he’s a great guy and terrific athlete” BS because that’s lazy. Williams’ highlight films and NFL prospectus (“takes too many sacks” and is ‘fantastic at improvisation’) point to a younger Justin.  Yet when Justin does it, he’s a failure.  To tell me Williams is better, collegiately, is just simply not true. And to compare him to how well he’ll measure up to Fields professionally is skeptical at best.  

OK, first thing is that I am not saying every #1 pick QB is going to set the world on fire. What I am saying is you need a top 2 QB in the league to reliably compete for superbowls. I can also say that you are more likely to find that with a top pick. We've broken down all those stats before, so I wont repeat them here.

As for you being tired of my opinion, I dont know what to say. Fields has never been a winner, all anyone has for him is excuses. Maybe those excuses are real and he is an amazing QB in the making that just needs support around him, but since he doesnt read defenses, holds the ball too long and is now decoded by NFL defenses, I think passing on an incredible talent like Williams to keep Fields is delusional. That's my opinion. My opinion is also that people are over in love with Fields for some reason, and it clouds their judgement.

When you say "save the pettiness" while simultaneously saying that when I say Fields is "a great guy and a terrific athlete" I'm LAZY, then I think that's pettiness too (by YOUR definition not mine) and I dont mind you saying that at all, you dont have to stop - so don't pretend I'm some big meanie for saying "delusional" or "turd." It's just another technique to try to beat me without facts, and it's self serving and false.

As for Williams, you just said all you have is what's on paper; just raw numbers. You have to watch the film. I am not super intelligent or smarter than everyone, I've just done the homework, and spent the hours watching the film. Anyone can do it. I'm not special, but I did do the work. I encourage you to watch some all 22 Williams film too and see if the narratives you've read stand up. I would bet that you'll come out of it the same way I did. It's glaring on the screen, and it's not what the sportwriters are/were saying.

Williams makes reads, Justin doesn't. Williams throws the ball on time with anticipation and location for YAC, Justin doesn't. Williams meshes with the RB where Justin is lazy with that. Williams' release is incredible and compact, Justin pats the ball and hesitates. Williams stands tall in the pocket with an elongated spine, Justin squats down as he throws.

And there is more.

As to your point about college ball, Justin Fields was not even in the discussion to be a #1 pick, he was taken at #11, the 4th QB taken - that's what scouts thought about Justin coming out of college. Compare to all the noise about Williams being generational, and I think to say that Justin was a better prospect coming out of college is just factually wrong. Also Fields played on a team with lots of players who are in the NFL, Williams had nothing.

And where are the first round draft pick offers to trade for Fields? Why isn't the NFL clamoring to get him on their team? There IS a reason. Teams would reportedly trade a huge haul for Caleb, but hesitate on a second rounder for Fields.

But again, that's all just noise. Watch the film. It tells a clear story if you know what to look for, and like I said it isn't rocket science.

But here's a real question - how can you be so offended that I don't respect the pro Fields opinion when you haven't watched the all 22? Is it your opinion or did you read it somewhere and attach yourself to it, and now you're defending it like it's your own and my opinion is somehow disrespecting what you READ someone else say?

I see how personal everything is getting here, how much the Justin lovers want so bad to tell me off and put me in my place. That's on you guys. And it's ugly.

The fact is that Justin is not a good QB, he ranks last or close to last in the league in most measurables, he never had a 4th quarter comeback, he doesn't read defenses or play in structure or tempo, he has a slow release and hesitates to throw. What is the big love all about? The guy is NOT good.

But as to the idea that Caleb holds the ball too long, again I ask you to watch the film. Williams isn't running for his life like Fields does, he's manipulating the pocket like Aaron Rodgers does and then finding his receivers. Did he look for too many long throws? Yes for the NFL for sure he did. But then again, he won every game he put up 30 points in. His defense was terrible and he had to score a lot. But there are dozens and dozens of plays where Williams reads and the ball is out quick. The narrative is a lie based on an average timing, with no inclusion of the standard deviation on that number. That means Williams can and does play in tempo and structure all the time. He also manipulates the pocket and creates more time to throw, just like Aaron Rodgers.

The guy is going to be the Bears savior, and Justin is gonna flunk out of the league. You can book that. So I'd advise getting on the Williams train so you don't end up screaming into the wind. Reality is calling, just watch the tape with your own eyes and make your own decisions, and Ill bet you'll come back and tell me I was right. Because it's all there to see easily. Just see for yourself. Maybe you'll even be angry at how you were lied to by media.

You say "And to compare him [Williams] to how well he’ll measure up to Fields professionally is skeptical at best." Ok you're on record. If Caleb Williams lights it up and takes Chicago to the promised land are you going to say you were wrong? Because if it was your choice, you wouldn't have drafted him, and you're going to have to live with that.
 

[BearFan PHX]

One way you can tell a cult is that they believe things they have no evidence for, and attack anyone who says they are wrong.

Some think I am a horrible person because I wont go along with the crowd saying the King is outfitted in splendor. You read articles about his clothes and how fine they are. But just look at him. He's stark naked. Trust your own eyes, and you will not be angry at me anymore. And dont be offended when someone doesnt respect something you heard someone ELSE say as if you said it yourself. Watch the film. Anyone can do it. And it's clear as day.

But if you must follow what others are saying, can you not see that increasingly all the writers etc are going over to the Caleb camp? It's not even a matter of common wisdom anymore since the common wisdom (which is often wrong!) is on team Caleb now too.

Don't get stuck doubling down on bad ideas just because you supported them before. If you want the Bears to win, then pick a great QB, or at the very least stop attacking anyone who wants to. I feel NO shame whatsoever for having the opinion I hold, I routinely use facts to back it up and I also think the support for Fields at this point is psychological and not fact based. And it explains all the anger too. That's my opinion.

But no matter all of this, I promise you that trying to use peer pressure to change my mind is foolish. Some may crumble under that pressure and submit, but I promise you I have never been that guy. When my eyes see something firsthand, I don't give up on that for someone to like me - that's incredibly weak.

I think it's time for you guys to back off.

[adam]

2 hours ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

In the current “Super Bowl era” 24 QBs have been selected #1 overall.  Of those 7 have played in and won a Super Bowl.  Of the 58 Super Bowls played so far those 7 (~12%) have contributed to 15 Super Bowl wins (~26%).  Do you really think Williams is good enough to be in that top 25% of all QBs ever picked?  If so, how?  Where does he rate against those other 7 that makes you so convinced he’s that “elite”?  

 

Others have recently commented on your dismissal of those of us who are still in the Fields camp. And frankly I’m growing tired of it.  You continuously volley covert commentary like calling out Fields’ supporters as “crazy” (above) or “delusional” and it’s gotten old.   If you want to stick to pure facts and compare I’m good with it. Save the pettiness for somewhere else.

So far I’ve seen nothing (on paper) that convinces me that Williams is the next best thing.   For me the stats that Fields left collegiately were better than Williams. His overall record far outpaced Williams against much better competition to include the college playoffs . When he faced adversity, both physically (vs clemson 2021) and otherwise (COVID Big 10) he didn’t wither on the vine.  Save the “he’s a great guy and terrific athlete” BS because that’s lazy. Williams’ highlight films and NFL prospectus (“takes too many sacks” and is ‘fantastic at improvisation’) point to a younger Justin.  Yet when Justin does it, he’s a failure.  To tell me Williams is better, collegiately, is just simply not true. And to compare him to how well he’ll measure up to Fields professionally is skeptical at best.  

Grizz, after looking at a lot of numbers, I think the entire "what number they were selected at" is just another made up talking point by the media (just like Mr. Irrelevant). The biggest correlation to anything is most QBs drafted #1 go to crappy teams. That's it. When they were selected is considerably less relevant than who selected them, what kind of team is around the QB, and how good is the coaching staff. 

One big thing about the COVID year, that made evals 10x more difficult. A good number of players opted out, so the competition all around was much weaker that season.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

1 hour ago, BearFan PHX said:

As for you being tired of my opinion, I dont know what to say. Fields has never been a winner, all anyone has for him is excuses.

Your opinion of others being wrong where you are not is what I take issue with.  Your opinion of football is entirely seperate.  Assholes and opinions we all got.  
 

As far as saying “Fields has never been a winner…” - seriously?  His collegiate record as a starter at OSU is 20-2.  Those two losses being in the playoffs.  How well did your man Caleb do in the playoffs?  Actually I’ll tell ya.  The year he won the Heisman (2022) he went into the PAC12 championship with USC ranked 4th and lost to 12th ranked Utah 47-24.  Then during the Cotton Bowl lost to the formidable Green Wave from Tulane 46-45.  The second season, where he regressed from his Heisman campaign, he closed the season out with three straight losses and chose to opt out of the Holiday Bowl where his team managed to win 42-28.  You remember that one where his backup threw 6 TDs?  But I digress.

2 hours ago, BearFan PHX said:

Also Fields played on a team with lots of players who are in the NFL, Williams had nothing

What’s this?  “Excuses”?  
 

2 hours ago, BearFan PHX said:

But then again, he won every game he put up 30 points in. His defense was terrible and he had to score a lot.

Who were these teams he scored 30+ against?  Rice, Stanford, Oregon State?  
 

For the sake of argument I’ll do what I can to watch some “All-22” and get back with you. Something tells me my ‘opinion’ won’t be a lot different but I’ll give it due diligence. I’d hate for you to have to resort to petty name calling and refer to me as a blind ‘cultist’. 

[Alaskan Grizzly]

3 minutes ago, adam said:

Grizz, after looking at a lot of numbers, I think the entire "what number they were selected at" is just another made up talking point by the media (just like Mr. Irrelevant). The biggest correlation to anything is most QBs drafted #1 go to crappy teams. That's it. When they were selected is considerably less relevant than who selected them, what kind of team is around the QB, and how good is the coaching staff. 

One big thing about the COVID year, that made evals 10x more difficult. A good number of players opted out, so the competition all around was much weaker that season.

Sure I get what you’re saying.  But to suggest that because Williams is the ‘sure thing’ at #1 overall and is the second coming to his legions, does not “correlate” to him winning “multiple super bowls”.  The past history and record doesn’t support it outright.  

[BearFan PHX]

38 minutes ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

Your opinion of others being wrong where you are not is what I take issue with.  Your opinion of football is entirely seperate.  Assholes and opinions we all got.  
 

As far as saying “Fields has never been a winner…” - seriously?  His collegiate record as a starter at OSU is 20-2.  Those two losses being in the playoffs.  How well did your man Caleb do in the playoffs?  Actually I’ll tell ya.  The year he won the Heisman (2022) he went into the PAC12 championship with USC ranked 4th and lost to 12th ranked Utah 47-24.  Then during the Cotton Bowl lost to the formidable Green Wave from Tulane 46-45.  The second season, where he regressed from his Heisman campaign, he closed the season out with three straight losses and chose to opt out of the Holiday Bowl where his team managed to win 42-28.  You remember that one where his backup threw 6 TDs?  But I digress.

What’s this?  “Excuses”?  
 

Who were these teams he scored 30+ against?  Rice, Stanford, Oregon State?  
 

For the sake of argument I’ll do what I can to watch some “All-22” and get back with you. Something tells me my ‘opinion’ won’t be a lot different but I’ll give it due diligence. I’d hate for you to have to resort to petty name calling and refer to me as a blind ‘cultist’. 

take a deep breath.

I mean in the NFL Fields hasn't been a winner.

As for being nasty, read the tone of what youve just written. you (and others) are coming after me SOOO hard and saying I'm such a bad guy. I'm not. No one in my life feels this way. You're really far off base. But the irony is I'm talking football, the amount of personal stuff here toward me way outweighs anything from me.

You might not want to hear this, but the reason you and others are so mad at me is two fold - 1) you cant stand that I'm right about Justin and how sure I am about it and 2) you got a really bad taste in your mouth about when I went after Stinger because I was done having him try to bully me for years and needed to set some personal boundaries. All through that time, I said in almost every post - let's just stop. That's all I wanted.

Anyway,

When you watch the all 22 full games (not highlights), watch for these things:

getting the ball out quick on timing plays when the WR is open
making reads, and going through progressions
looking off safeties
his incredible compact release and body position when he throws
ball placement for WRs to gain YAC.
what he does when plays break down.

Youll also see some super human plays of the type that Justin makes too.

What you wont see is Williams standing there indecisive. When you see him move around, watch him work BACK to the pocket and how his movement helps his blockers get position. Not taking off to run like Fields does, although that is also a thing Caleb does well.

It's fine if you come away from that game (The Alabama game I cant find a public link to) with mixed reviews on Caleb. Anyone will. But you wont see evidence of the narratives you've read, and you should think about what that might mean in the larger sense of all the sports stuff we all consume. Lemme try to find you a good link.

OK... Here is Kurt Warners all 22 breakdown on Caleb vs Colorado. I havent seen it yet. It just came out today, so let's call that a fair test and both watch it.

Im sure it wont be perfect. But will it support or dispel the common knowledge narratives?
 

 

[Stinger226]

3 hours ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

In the current “Super Bowl era” 24 QBs have been selected #1 overall.  Of those 7 have played in and won a Super Bowl.  Of the 58 Super Bowls played so far those 7 (~12%) have contributed to 15 Super Bowl wins (~26%).  Do you really think Williams is good enough to be in that top 25% of all QBs ever picked?  If so, how?  Where does he rate against those other 7 that makes you so convinced he’s that “elite”?  

 

Others have recently commented on your dismissal of those of us who are still in the Fields camp. And frankly I’m growing tired of it.  You continuously volley covert commentary like calling out Fields’ supporters as “crazy” (above) or “delusional” and it’s gotten old.   If you want to stick to pure facts and compare I’m good with it. Save the pettiness for somewhere else.

So far I’ve seen nothing (on paper) that convinces me that Williams is the next best thing.   For me the stats that Fields left collegiately were better than Williams. His overall record far outpaced Williams against much better competition to include the college playoffs . When he faced adversity, both physically (vs clemson 2021) and otherwise (COVID Big 10) he didn’t wither on the vine.  Save the “he’s a great guy and terrific athlete” BS because that’s lazy. Williams’ highlight films and NFL prospectus (“takes too many sacks” and is ‘fantastic at improvisation’) point to a younger Justin.  Yet when Justin does it, he’s a failure.  To tell me Williams is better, collegiately, is just simply not true. And to compare him to how well he’ll measure up to Fields professionally is skeptical at best.  

In the last 20 years only Peyton Manning has won a SB as a elite prospect. That's not chump change . . It's a little hard to pretend that's a random stat. The morale of the story , more have been busts than great with the first pick of the draft. Not to say you can't get a good QB there but it's not set in stone.

[Stinger226]

1 minute ago, BearFan PHX said:

take a deep breath.

I mean in the NFL Fields hasn't been a winner.

As for being nasty, read the tone of what youve just written. you (and others) are coming after me SOOO hard and saying I'm such a bad guy. I'm not. No one in my life feels this way. You're really far off base. But the irony is I'm talking football, the amount of personal stuff here toward me way outweighs anything from me.

You might not want to hear this, but the reason you and others are so mad at me is two fold - 1) you cant stand that I'm right about Justin and how sure I am about it and 2) you got a really bad taste in your mouth about when I went after Stinger because I was done having him try to bully me for years and needed to set some personal boundaries. All through that time, I said in almost every post - let's just stop. That's all I wanted.

Anyway,

When you watch the all 22 full games (not highlights), watch for these things:

getting the ball out quick on timing plays when the WR is open
making reads, and going through progressions
looking off safeties
his incredible compact release and body position when he throws
ball placement for WRs to gain YAC.
what he does when plays break down.

Youll also see some super human plays of the type that Justin makes too.

What you wont see is Williams standing there indecisive. When you see him move around, watch him work BACK to the pocket and how his movement helps his blockers get position. Not taking off to run like Fields does, although that is also a thing Caleb does well.

It's fine if you come away from that game with mixed reviews on Caleb. Anyone will. But you wont see evidence of the narratives you've read, and you should think about what that might mean in the larger sense of all the sports stuff we all consume. Lemme try to find you a good link.

Here is Kurt Warners all 22 breakdown on Caleb vs Colorado. I havent seen it yet. It just came out today, so let's call that a fair test and both watch it.

Im sure it wont be perfect. But will it support or dispel the common knowledge narratives?
 

 

If we're going to have peace on here, stop bringing my name up every time you have to defend your remarks. 

[BearFan PHX]

OK I watched it - 20 minutes, and it says so much.

There's bad in there too - thats why you have to watch complete games in order and not highlight or lowlight reels.

But I encourage everyone to watch this and then be a reporter and tell us fairly what you saw.

[BearFan PHX]

25 minutes ago, Stinger226 said:

If we're going to have peace on here, stop bringing my name up every time you have to defend your remarks. 

I agree with you. I don't ever want to bring that up again. I would prefer if people didn't all just take their turns telling me how awful I am for saying "turd" a couple months ago or "delusional" when critiquing an argument being made, and I'm just saying that is in part because they didn't like what went on. But in this case is had nothing to do with you at all.

So you're right and this comment of yours wasnt rude or anything. I would prefer to stop talking about it too, and that's fair.

[Stinger226]

Finally, we have common ground. I totally respect your opinion with the keep no keep Justin. It's your condescending and disrespectful attitude because someone doesn't agree wit you . People aren't ganging up on you, they just don't like you telling them their a cult, stupid, silly. .Just stop getting personal. 

People know you can't stand me, I wouldn't be comfortable if you did, you don't have to keep bringing  me up every time someone doesn't like your disrespect them. 

Odds of Justin being here are slim but still an option on the table. Until he's traded or the first pick is traded it's a heated topic. Its not just here but every where,. Great things going with the bears right now, let's enjoy that.

[BearFan PHX]

Here is Kap on ESPN, posted 22 minutes ago, after everything that's been said, so not influenced by it at all, and the first minute says everything for me. It's not me you're mad at. This same conversation is happening all over Chicago. And I had no idea that Kap would use the word "cult" either. I'm not out there guys. It's just a different point of view, and it is authentically held, not with anger, but this is what I really think is happening.
 

 

[Stinger226]

10 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said:

Here is Kap on ESPN, posted 22 minutes ago, after everything that's been said, so not influenced by it at all, and the first minute says everything for me. It's not me you're mad at. This same conversation is happening all over Chicago. And I had no idea that Kap would use the word "cult" either. I'm not out there guys. It's just a different point of view, and it is authentically held, not with anger, but this is what I really think is happening.
 

 

If Kap is your example of proper behavior, you may want to look at other videos he has out there. I can send you 40 videos of football people suggesting we keep Fields but that would be wasted time. You're not changing your mind and I'm not changing mine. When Poles makes his choices, I will move on from Fields. 

If he chooses Fields we will hear about Williams every week because you won't accept it. If he chooses Williams, I'll be all in on that.

If we draft Williams, I hope you're right about everything, I don't need to do that while I still have the opportunity to have a different opinion. It's getting closer to not having an argument anymore.

[BearFan PHX]

14 minutes ago, Stinger226 said:

If Kap is your example of proper behavior, you may want to look at other videos he has out there. I can send you 40 videos of football people suggesting we keep Fields but that would be wasted time. You're not changing your mind and I'm not changing mine. When Poles makes his choices, I will move on from Fields. 

If he chooses Fields we will hear about Williams every week because you won't accept it. If he chooses Williams, I'll be all in on that.

If we draft Williams, I hope you're right about everything, I don't need to do that while I still have the opportunity to have a different opinion. It's getting closer to not having an argument anymore.

I assume, and I hope that by training camp we are all on the same page.

I didnt post this because Kap says move on from Fields, because i think Pat did a great job articulating the keep Justin arguments too. But Im saying, you can see a guy in Kap who calls this trend a "cult" and "insane" and how many people have questioned his character - they both agree it's the most divisive issue in Chicago Sports history. They say that Twitter and everywhere else are "toxic" right now.

So I'm saying it's not just me. And a lot of people are calling each other haters and worse for wanting Justin gone. You may think it's my tone that's so awful, but Kap had the same tone about the same point. It's not just me. And it's not uncommon.

For example, I'm not calling anyone a "pig" or something like that which would be purely an insult. I'm saying it's "crazy" and "inane" and keeping Justin because you think he's going to get better is "delusional" - those are all descriptions of what i think is going on. Im directly saying I think it's become psychological in nature. Kap said the same. So it's not meant to be rough, it's meant to be descriptive of the mechanism I think I'm seeing. Some kind of cultural trend to see Justin as a victim and rally behind him. And it's nice on a personal level, but as a football strategy I think it is "crazy" meaning illogical.

No need to argue whether it is crazy or not, because that's not my point here, my point is that people who are my side of the debate really think this. We're kind of shocked at it, and can't understand it at all.

So this is sportstalk, not over the line awful or abusive, so let's stop using that to try to win points that are really about Fields and Williams if we can. What I've been saying is a mainstream position held by a lot of people, including those specific words. "crazy" "inane" "cult" "turd" "delusional" these arent fighting words.

[Stinger226]

1 hour ago, BearFan PHX said:

I assume, and I hope that by training camp we are all on the same page.

I didnt post this because Kap says move on from Fields, because i think Pat did a great job articulating the keep Justin arguments too. But Im saying, you can see a guy in Kap who calls this trend a "cult" and "insane" and how many people have questioned his character - they both agree it's the most divisive issue in Chicago Sports history. They say that Twitter and everywhere else are "toxic" right now.

So I'm saying it's not just me. And a lot of people are calling each other haters and worse for wanting Justin gone. You may think it's my tone that's so awful, but Kap had the same tone about the same point. It's not just me. And it's not uncommon.

For example, I'm not calling anyone a "pig" or something like that which would be purely an insult. I'm saying it's "crazy" and "inane" and keeping Justin because you think he's going to get better is "delusional" - those are all descriptions of what i think is going on. Im directly saying I think it's become psychological in nature. Kap said the same. So it's not meant to be rough, it's meant to be descriptive of the mechanism I think I'm seeing. Some kind of cultural trend to see Justin as a victim and rally behind him. And it's nice on a personal level, but as a football strategy I think it is "crazy" meaning illogical.

No need to argue whether it is crazy or not, because that's not my point here, my point is that people who are my side of the debate really think this. We're kind of shocked at it, and can't understand it at all.

So this is sportstalk, not over the line awful or abusive, so let's stop using that to try to win points that are really about Fields and Williams if we can. What I've been saying is a mainstream position held by a lot of people, including those specific words. "crazy" "inane" "cult" "turd" "delusional" these arent fighting words.

That's going to happen very soon and we can all relax and enjoy the wins coming this year. 

[BearFan PHX]

8 minutes ago, Stinger226 said:

That's going to happen very soon and we can all relax and enjoy the wins coming this year. 

^5

I'm sure we will (all) disagree at points too, but I cant imagine it being as emotional as it has been with Fields. I was early off the Fields train, and it hasn't been easy.

I think we are all going to be blown away by Williams. He'll make mistakes too, he's not a God, but he's a pretty damned good prospect.

Did you watch the Kurt Warner link I put above? I mean seeing it for yourself is just so powerful.

[Stinger226]

I've  beenwatching hours of tape on him and he could be literally generational talent. My only concern is wanting to be treated special and how that translates to the NFL. 

As a rookie, he more than likely needs time to get up to speed. DCs will design defenses to counter him, great players everywhere and the fan base will be brutal if he takes a few years to develop.

Does he have the stomach to handle that?

[killakrzydav]

Payton was yes.