Jayden Daniels?

[Stinger226]

Daniels was the best QB in college last year. He played in a pro style offense and is a great running option . I'm not sure who has the most upside on the QBs but he is the most ready to start in the NFL. 

Caleb is always popping out of the pocket and playing hero ball. Holds the ball to long. Didn't play as well against better opponents.  Daniels was in the SEC. 

I'm going to keep looking at tape to,see who stands out more than the other.

[Stinger226]

This my drat Daniels mock. 

[adam]

I don't think Daniels fits Waldron's system. Daniels rushed once for every 2 passing attempts, that is a lot of rushes for a college QB. 

Also, he didn't play particularly well against top opponents, his last two games against Alabama he averaged 200 yards passing. His last game against Georgia, 208 yards passing. He was 1-2 in those games against top defenses. In 2023, he faced 2 top 10 teams, Alabama and Florida St, and he lost both. In 2022, he was 2-2 against ranked teams.

[dawhizz]

1 hour ago, Stinger226 said:

Daniels was the best QB in college last year. He played in a pro style offense and is a great running option . I'm not sure who has the most upside on the QBs but he is the most ready to start in the NFL. 

Caleb is always popping out of the pocket and playing hero ball. Holds the ball to long. Didn't play as well against better opponents.  Daniels was in the SEC. 

I'm going to keep looking at tape to,see who stands out more than the other.

Jayden Daniels is basically where Caleb was at this time last year - Herman trophy winner, most productive QB in college, golden boy, etc. Then Caleb came back, college teams developed their schemes against him, he started playing a little too loose (though his O-line did not help) and now he’s getting picked apart. I get that. Who knows if the same things would happen if Daniels came back for another year? One years wonders sometime work out and sometimes don’t. If you’re comparing them, it’s also worth noting that Daniels is throwing to two first round picks while Caleb’s top two receivers look to be Day 3 picks. 

[Alaskan Grizzly]

26 minutes ago, dawhizz said:

If you’re comparing them, it’s also worth noting that Daniels is throwing to two first round picks while Caleb’s top two receivers look to be Day 3 picks

Simply put, is it the receiver or the passer that makes them look good?  As I’ve been reminded numerous times, great QBs make other players look great.  
 

And although I know who Adam was referring to the other day when he mentioned a college QB struggled in the NFL after having 1st round WRs to throw so, I asked sarcastically was he referring to Joe Burrow?  

[killakrzydav]

Most know that I’m a Daniels not CW guy.  

[dawhizz]

25 minutes ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

Simply put, is it the receiver or the passer that makes them look good?  As I’ve been reminded numerous times, great QBs make other players look great.  

Totally valid question, but NFL draft evaluations tend to take into account skill/measurables of the players over straight stars, and I think it’s pretty clear from a measurable standpoint who had the better WRs (not that that’s everything). 

[BearFan PHX]

Daniels has all the physical tools, but he locks on to one receiver. Often thats not a problem because the guy is open, but when he isnt, Daniels runs. I havent seen him get to a second receiver or look off a safety. And that will be necessary in the NFL.

Caleb does it all the time.

[DABEARSDABOMB]

51 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said:

Daniels has all the physical tools, but he locks on to one receiver. Often thats not a problem because the guy is open, but when he isnt, Daniels runs. I havent seen him get to a second receiver or look off a safety. And that will be necessary in the NFL.

Caleb does it all the time.

Caleb is always looking - he does hold it too long from time to time and did that more this year vs. the year before.  He had way worse talent around him by the way (no one is mocking anyone in 1st 3 rounds with possible exception of Jerry Rice's kid going in the 3rd round). Opposite of the other high end QB's who had a TON of talent around them this past season.  

But Caleb is always using his eyes to manipulate, etc and when he holds it too long - its cause he's going to more reads to take something big, partly because they needed to score 50 a game to win. Their defense was giving up like 450 yards per game. It was AWFUL.  

Jayden did great this year - but he is more frail and was a "meh" player at his past destinations. I'm leery of a guy who wasn't that good who all of a sudden becomes elite when he's surrounded by the best receiving corps in the country. With that said - Burrow wasn't anything until he jumped between his 1st and 2nd year at LSU.  No one saw that coming.  

[BearFan PHX]

12 minutes ago, DABEARSDABOMB said:

Caleb is always looking - he does hold it too long from time to time and did that more this year vs. the year before.  He had way worse talent around him by the way (no one is mocking anyone in 1st 3 rounds with possible exception of Jerry Rice's kid going in the 3rd round). Opposite of the other high end QB's who had a TON of talent around them this past season.  

But Caleb is always using his eyes to manipulate, etc and when he holds it too long - its cause he's going to more reads to take something big, partly because they needed to score 50 a game to win. Their defense was giving up like 450 yards per game. It was AWFUL.  

Jayden did great this year - but he is more frail and was a "meh" player at his past destinations. I'm leery of a guy who wasn't that good who all of a sudden becomes elite when he's surrounded by the best receiving corps in the country. With that said - Burrow wasn't anything until he jumped between his 1st and 2nd year at LSU.  No one saw that coming.  

Yeah Jayden is a great athlete, and i think he has a better arm than Caleb does. I also think Daniels does a great job with presnap reads. He runs well too.

But I consistently see on Daniels' tape that he locks onto hi receiver from the snap, which is going to be a real problem int he NFL as defenders are drawn to the guy he is staring down, and i never see Daniels make a second read.

Now on most plays, he doesnt have to. So for example, Daniels stars down Nabers, but Nabers is open and Daniels delivers the ball in tempo and with good location. A play like that fits my point, but I'd call it a success, because the first read was the right read and Daniels made it. ANd often with his two great WRs that first read was open, so you see a lot of plays that you say "great, Daniels did the right thing" - but then you see how often he runs too. ANd hes a good runner so often you think "great Daniels did the right thing" so he has a lot of good plays.

BUT if you dig deeper, youll see he never looks off the safety and there are scant few examples of him going to a second read before he runs. And that is a problem that may not be immediately apparent to people watching the tape unless they are watching for this specifically. And if he doesnt clean it up, he will not succeed in the NFL. If you watch his head on every play, it's pretty glaring once you see it.

Now, there is nothing written in stone that says an NFL coach cant develop him to have these skills. I am not going to predict that he CANT develop, but i am going to say that right now he is not NFL ready, and if you take him, you take the same risk you took with Justin.

And when I look at Caleb, I see a guy who is much more NFL ready in the way he plays the QB position. The way he manipulates the pocket like Aaron Rodgers, and the way he scans the field, and manipulates defenders.

Maye is a much better "QB" in this way than Daniels, although Daniels has a better arm than both Maye and Williams.

So at some point, you gotta ask yourself whether youre drafting a physical set of tools that you think you can control from the sidelines, or whether youre drafting a QB who can play the game mentally.
 

[Alaskan Grizzly]

3 hours ago, adam said:

Also, he (Daniels) didn't play particularly well against top opponents, his last two games against Alabama he averaged 200 yards passing. His last game against Georgia, 208 yards passing. He was 1-2 in those games against top defenses. In 2023, he faced 2 top 10 teams, Alabama and Florida St, and he lost both. In 2022, he was 2-2 against ranked teams.

So playing against 'NFL ready defenses' in the form of Alabama and Georgia makes you less likely to succeed in the NFL?  This is a similar discussion we had about Justin due to his having a 20-2 overall collegiate record (while with OSU) and those two losses being in the college playoffs.  

Nevertheless, Williams overall record against 'top 25-ranked' teams was 6-8. 

In 2022 he had three losses; the first to Utah (who was ranked 20th at the time), then Utah again during the PAC12 Conference Championship.  This time Utah was ranked 12th and USC lost 47-24.  The last loss of his Heisman season was at the Cotton Bowl against 14th ranked Tulane.  

Last year he amassed 5 losses.  The first to 10th ranked Notre Dame (48-20), the next was to those pesky Utes from Utah (who this time were ranked 14th), then after beating California (unranked) USC closed out the season with three straight losses.  Washington (5th), Oregon (6th) and UCLA (20th). By the time they entered the post-season to play Louisville in the Holiday Bowl, USC was ranked 24 and as we recall Williams opted to sit this one out.  

[BearFan PHX]

Football is a team sport so wins and losses are never a QB stat.

Of course if you can point to reasons why a game was won or lost because of the QB play, then that's different, but if youre putting up 30+ points and being beaten 38-34, it's hard to put that on the QB, just like in the games where Eberflus went to a prevent defense way too early and blew large leads, those losses werent Justin's fault.

[Mongo3451]

19 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said:

Football is a team sport so wins and losses are never a QB stat.

Of course if you can point to reasons why a game was won or lost because of the QB play, then that's different, but if youre putting up 30+ points and being beaten 38-34, it's hard to put that on the QB, just like in the games where Eberflus went to a prevent defense way too early and blew large leads, those losses werent Justin's fault.

We don't blame Justin, but his performances in the 4th quarter weren't great.  Sometimes a defense needs the offense to squeeze out one first down.  Or the kicker to do his damn job.  And the offensive coordinator to not call a tush push with Darnell Mooney as the pusher or not call the 700th bubble screen of the season.  Correctly viewed, Justin was not the cause of those losses, but he was absolutely partially to blame.

[Stinger226]

2 hours ago, BearFan PHX said:

Daniels has all the physical tools, but he locks on to one receiver. Often thats not a problem because the guy is open, but when he isnt, Daniels runs. I havent seen him get to a second receiver or look off a safety. And that will be necessary in the NFL.

Caleb does it all the time.

Without knowing his progression and what his reads are, how do you know that? The tape I watched, shows once he's under pressure, is when he runs. It's easy to see him throw to one WR but I can't tell if that's he first, second or third read.

[Stinger226]

4 hours ago, adam said:

I don't think Daniels fits Waldron's system. Daniels rushed once for every 2 passing attempts, that is a lot of rushes for a college QB. 

Also, he didn't play particularly well against top opponents, his last two games against Alabama he averaged 200 yards passing. His last game against Georgia, 208 yards passing. He was 1-2 in those games against top defenses. In 2023, he faced 2 top 10 teams, Alabama and Florida St, and he lost both. In 2022, he was 2-2 against ranked teams.

They ran a pro style offense and he throws from the pocket, isn't that what they're looking for.

[BearFan PHX]

2 hours ago, Mongo3451 said:

We don't blame Justin, but his performances in the 4th quarter weren't great.  Sometimes a defense needs the offense to squeeze out one first down.  Or the kicker to do his damn job.  And the offensive coordinator to not call a tush push with Darnell Mooney as the pusher or not call the 700th bubble screen of the season.  Correctly viewed, Justin was not the cause of those losses, but he was absolutely partially to blame.

right, of course we judge QBs if they dont take their teams on their back in the 4th quarter and will a score, but if your defense is giving up more than 35 points regularly, it's hard to blame the QB. I never blamed Justin for all the losses, but I did criticize his performance.

[BearFan PHX]

1 hour ago, Stinger226 said:

Without knowing his progression and what his reads are, how do you know that? The tape I watched, shows once he's under pressure, is when he runs. It's easy to see him throw to one WR but I can't tell if that's he first, second or third read.

with due respect, you dont know how to watch the tape.

[AZ54]

19 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said:

with due respect, you dont know how to watch the tape.

open eyes, see football.  

[BearFan PHX]

2 minutes ago, AZ54 said:

open eyes, see football.  

exactly. it aint hard.

But his description of Justin Fields is at odds with what the tape shows. When a guy is looking right at an open receiver, and that open receiver is hitting his break before any others, and Justin's hips are pointed toward that receiver, and his arm is up to throw - it isn't hard to know that was his first read. And when you can see the guy is open but Justin doesnt throw the ball, it doesnt take a genius at all to know that Fields is hesitating and not pulling the trigger. When you see it over and over, then you know it's a flaw in his game.

And then you read a ton of people writing the same thing, and then you go back to college scouts saying the same thing. It's kind of hard to say "well you dont know what his progression was so you dont know" so i responded symmetrically, that he doesnt know how to break down tape. Im not suggesting it's hard to do or Im the only one who can do it either.

But yeah, there is a reason that no one wanted Fields as a starter. that's not because of me, I'm just some guy noticing it, and if he thinks it's not true, then he is just a guy who isn't noticing it.

[AZ54]

1 minute ago, BearFan PHX said:

exactly. it aint hard.

But his description of Justin Fields is at odds with what the tape shows. When a guy is looking right at an open receiver, and that open receiver is hitting his break before any others, and Justin's hips are pointed toward that receiver, and his arm is up to throw - it isn't hard to know that was his first read. And when you can see the guy is open but Justin doesnt throw the ball, it doesnt take a genius at all to know that Fields is hesitating and not pulling the trigger. When you see it over and over, then you know it's a flaw in his game.

And then you read a ton of people writing the same thing, and then you go back to college scouts saying the same thing. It's kind of hard to say "well you dont know what his progression was so you dont know" so i responded symmetrically, that he doesnt know how to break down tape. Im not suggesting it's hard to do or Im the only one who can do it either.

But yeah, there is a reason that no one wanted Fields as a starter. that's not because of me, I'm just some guy noticing it, and if he thinks it's not true, then he is just a guy who isn't noticing it.

We all have the same facts in the world, yet the world is composed of billions of different opinions.  His is just one and he's welcome to it.  This is actually why I read this board because people will force me to see things from a different perspective.  Some change my mind, others do not.  I'm not married to the need for someone to see things my way, I simply accept the differences and see how things play out.  So sometimes they are wrong and sometimes I'm wrong, and maybe more often than not I'm wrong.  Despite all that, it is still possible to support an argument without declaring a "flaw" in someone else just because you disagree.  

[Daventry]

10 minutes ago, AZ54 said:

We all have the same facts in the world, yet the world is composed of billions of different opinions.  His is just one and he's welcome to it.  This is actually why I read this board because people will force me to see things from a different perspective.  Some change my mind, others do not.  I'm not married to the need for someone to see things my way, I simply accept the differences and see how things play out.  So sometimes they are wrong and sometimes I'm wrong, and maybe more often than not I'm wrong.  Despite all that, it is still possible to support an argument without declaring a "flaw" in someone else just because you disagree.  

Opinions based on nothing are not much use to anyone.  I have no interest in reading endless opinions based on nothing tangible.

Kind of like the argument about keeping JF in general.  We could only get a sixth round pick for him and we are still debating his worth?  Isn’t it glaringly obvious what his worth is now?

 

[Stinger226]

43 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said:

with due respect, you dont know how to watch the tape.

I'm asking the expert on here to help me learn. When I watched  former QBs break down of Justin's play, they always mention they don't know the progressions on plays. They say they aren't sure if a WR run a bad route or the QB missed a player. How do you know a pass was the first progression ?  I can't figure that out.  It's very complex to me.

Now I understood when you said Daniels locked on a player by his eye movement but he doesn't do that all the time.

Is there a video you watched that show's you that? 

 

[Stinger226]

27 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said:

exactly. it aint hard.

But his description of Justin Fields is at odds with what the tape shows. When a guy is looking right at an open receiver, and that open receiver is hitting his break before any others, and Justin's hips are pointed toward that receiver, and his arm is up to throw - it isn't hard to know that was his first read. And when you can see the guy is open but Justin doesnt throw the ball, it doesnt take a genius at all to know that Fields is hesitating and not pulling the trigger. When you see it over and over, then you know it's a flaw in his game.

And then you read a ton of people writing the same thing, and then you go back to college scouts saying the same thing. It's kind of hard to say "well you dont know what his progression was so you dont know" so i responded symmetrically, that he doesnt know how to break down tape. Im not suggesting it's hard to do or Im the only one who can do it either.

But yeah, there is a reason that no one wanted Fields as a starter. that's not because of me, I'm just some guy noticing it, and if he thinks it's not true, then he is just a guy who isn't noticing it.

I have moved on from Justin, Im reference to  Daniels tape now. It was easy to see on some plays where Justin held the ball to long but he didn't do that all the time. I think all QBs some plays are obvious on their intent but once they hit 3 seconds several options are at their disposal.

[Stinger226]

This is a post about Jayden Daniels not  sure why  people keeping bringing up Fields?  Once he was no longer on the team, I've moved on and was his biggest fan. 

[dawhizz]

Watched a little of Daniels. Definitely got a great arm. Not a fan of the hits he takes when he runs. Seems like his receivers are consistently very open, which might just be scheme, but that plus the skill level of the receivers gives him som room for error, which, to his credit, he consistently takes advantage of. I also hav to say Brian Thomas is really impressive to me - he look like if George Pickens could get separation. If Nabors wasn’t on his team (and he had a more exciting name) he might be right with the top WRs in this class.