Good Evaluation On Season

[chitownman]

Here is a true evaluation of the season so far from Bears Beat Writer David Haugh with the following link:

 

Link

 

I may not have said it exactly this way in my previous posts however, David does get to the heart of the matter in regards to this team going from a Super Bowl participant to last place in the NFC Central Division a season later. Based on what David and I have seen, the Bears have quite a lot of holes to fix in order for this team to turn around once again. Notice that he does blame both Lovie Smith and Jerry Angelo for this mess together while not mentioning either one of them specifically.

 

See what you think about what David has to say. I think that he is pretty spot on in his evaluation of what has transpired since February 4, 2007.

Edited December 19, 2007 by balta1701-A
Post edited by Balta to fix the non-working link

[adam]

Yep. All the changes/moves they made in the offseason backfired. Some of the biggest moves that backfired were the Smith and Angelo extensions.

 

Less than a month after reaching the Super Bowl, the Chicago Bears resolved a major issue Wednesday night when they agreed on an extension with Smith that runs through 2011. They also locked in Angelo through 2013.

 

That started the downward spiral. Add the Rivera departure, then Jones' departure, then add the injuries and you have one helluva bad season.

 

The only saving grace is that the Bears are in the NFC, and with a few impact FA acquisitions, and some solid draft picks, they can be back in the mix next year.

[MBM]

Here is a true evaluation of the season so far from Bears Beat Writer David Haugh with the following link:

 

Link

 

I may not have said it exactly this way in my previous posts however, David does get to the heart of the matter in regards to this team going from a Super Bowl participant to last place in the NFC Central Division a season later. Based on what David and I have seen, the Bears have quite a lot of holes to fix in order for this team to turn around once again. Notice that he does blame both Lovie Smith and Jerry Angelo for this mess together while not mentioning either one of them specifically.

 

See what you think about what David has to say. I think that he is pretty spot on in his evaluation of what has transpired since February 4, 2007.

OK. I read his piece and I agree with many of his statements.

 

What were his columns saying when some of these events took place? I don't recall ever hearing or reading any negative statements about releasing Tank. And Haugh was quite silent when Grossman was benched. In fact, the press was railing on about the fact that Smith did not get an extension offerred to him sooner! Now it's considered to be a gaffe on the organization's part by the same press.

 

He's just another coward who hides behind his pen.

[chitownman]

OK. I read his piece and I agree with many of his statements.

 

What were his columns saying when some of these events took place? I don't recall ever hearing or reading any negative statements about releasing Tank. And Haugh was quite silent when Grossman was benched. In fact, the press was railing on about the fact that Smith did not get an extension offerred to him sooner! Now it's considered to be a gaffe on the organization's part by the same press.

 

He's just another coward who hides behind his pen.

 

I agree with you on the fact that Haugh is apparently another coward with a pen. The only thing I agree with is that he is pretty spot on with his assessment. Why Haugh did not do this the entire season is beyond me. We may have to send him emails or participate in his chats that he is a part of to ask him that specifically. It just goes to show how far this team has fallen this year and does a good job at showing where some of the blame for the problems should go. I just wish that it had been done through the entire season and if it was that evident in pre-season, why in the hell was it not mentioned at that point? Wish that Management in Lake Forrest would listen to some of us here instead and pay more attention to the fans versus their bottom line.

[nfoligno]

I am not a fan of Haugh's at all, but I do not believe the article was written as an, "I told you so". He listed reasons for the bears decline. That isn't to say he saw each and every one of these as being negative at the time, but in looking back, these are the things he said hurt the team.

[nfoligno]

There are a few I disagree w/

 

I agree w/ the majority, but some I either disagree w/, or simply have issue w/.

 

1. You cut your second-best defensive tackle because he can't stay out of trouble and, while you won't miss the trouble, you will miss him.

 

First, I personally always felt Tank was over-rated. He played on a DL loaded w/ talent, and I simply never felt he produced near to the level he was expected to. W/ Tommie Harris either out or playing hurt this year, I doubt Tank would have made that great of a difference. Second, while it didn't workout, this was an area we at least did address in adding Walker and Adams, and personally, I think Adams played well.

 

2. You keep your prized first-round draft choice on the field in the second quarter of a meaningless final exhibition game long after every other key offensive player called it a night, and he injures a knee that takes a month to heal.

 

While the injury sucked, I never felt it was the great mistake to have him in there. While he was a 1st round pick, he was a rookie and needed as many reps as possible to develop. I realize the starters had been pulled, but at the same time (a) he was not a starter and ( TE is not a position that will suffer a greater chance of injury w/ the other starters out. For example, it would not be smart to have your starting RB or QB in the game when the starting OL is out, but TE is not a position that should be under any greater chance of injury w/ the starters out. It sucked, but I simply do not see it as having been a mistake.

 

3. You pull the plug on the quarterback three games after he started Super Bowl XLI.

 

Yes, Rex started the SB, but let's not pretent that his 3 poor games to start the year came out of no where, and his benching was based solely on that. It was an extension of many bad games seen in the 2nd half last year as well. Further, many believe Rex looked better when he returned from the bench, so it could be just as easily argued that Rex benefited from the benching.

 

4. You make a series of odd personnel decisions that include benching a Pro Bowl alternate at defensive end

 

This one kills me. I have heard so many say this, but while it didn't work out, was it really the wrong move. Anderson was a pass rushing monster last year. While it looks now like he is best as a situational pass rush specialist, at the same time, I think it was very logical to make the move.

 

5. You suffer too many injuries to overcome, especially on defense

 

I simply call BS on this one. While there is no question injuries hurt this team, I do not accept it as an excuse. Buffalo suffered more injuries than we did, and had less talent to start w/, and yet played better on defense than we. Further, and I have said this before, even w/ all the injuries, we still had enough talent on the field that we should have been better. While the injuries at DT hurt, Anderson, Brown and Wale still present a ton of talent upfront. We went into the year w/ potentially the best LB trio, and they all played every game. There were many injuries in the secondary, but if the front 7 did a better job of getting to the QB, the issues in the secondary may not have been felt as much. To me, the issues on defense were far beyond simply the injuries we suffered.

[Lucky Luciano]

nfoligno - First, I personally always felt Tank was over-rated. He played on a DL loaded w/ talent, and I simply never felt he produced near to the level he was expected to. W/ Tommie Harris either out or playing hurt this year, I doubt Tank would have made that great of a difference. Second, while it didn't workout, this was an area we at least did address in adding Walker and Adams, and personally, I think Adams played well.

 

i strongly disagree with this statement. you state we have/had a DL loaded with talent. are you talking about interior linemen or the DL as a whole? it certainly can't be our interior line as angie let the entire squad with the exception of harris and garay, walk.

 

tank johnson produced on the level, and more than what is expected, of a 2nd round draft pick. harris was NOT the only player getting double teamed last season in the interior line. tank has the quicks getting off the LOS which is very important with a solid push up the middle filling his hole. he was not pushed out anywhere close to what the talent angie replaced him with which is one reason our run defense this season was pathetic. tank also has some speed that can move him down the line to make the tackles out of his area and flush a qb. players like tank are the guys you HOPE turn out this good with a later first day pick. a situation similar to a steve mcmichel being overshadowed by hampton.

 

i still have to say that what tank was charged and used to release him with was total BS. you can thank these stupid cops for the amount of publicity tank got because they had to justify a complete waste of a huge amount of taxpayers money on a personal vendetta. if you don't believe me look at the charges. the only really stupid one on tanks part is the going out after hours to get rid of his live-in friend which violated his probation for doing basically nothing. even the trumped up charge in arizona was totally bogus. believe me i am not for coddling punks and thugs in the nfl and certainly not a homer, but this crap was to the extreme in his case and in my opinion based upon his disrespect of authority in his first charge. we NEVER should have released him.

 

agree on olsen's injury. agree that grossman CERTAINLY was pulled with reason.

 

This one kills me. I have heard so many say this, but while it didn't work out, was it really the wrong move. Anderson was a pass rushing monster last year. While it looks now like he is best as a situational pass rush specialist, at the same time, I think it was very logical to make the move.

 

i am not sure of how this situation progressed throughout the season as far as who stared and who didn't. i think they kept anderson in there a lot longer than was warranted. alex brown simply was needed to stop the mess we had on the right side of our DL against running plays. there is NO excuse for seeing what we did for so long. anderson should play the part he was good at, the pass rush, and 'groomed' more before being announced as the starter to determine his worth. he needed more experience. this is on our coaching staff. we CERTAINLY do not want to trade alex brown this offseason. we have a good combo with anderson and him together.

 

another thing i do not agree with you is briggs. (another post about trading players) if we dump briggs this offseason we are in serious trouble with our defense. he is a young probowl player no matter what anyone spins the sitation as. that is NOT over-rated for a young guy to make it multiple years as all-pro and/or pro bowl player.

 

if anyone couldn't see the difference in play when he sits and williams plays is just not looking close enough. url is definately on his way out of the nfl with the cronic back problems. his play will suffer and that is a fact. that leaves us with an average hillenmeyer, who plays situationally, and who? williams? also if we let briggs go, who COULD play the middle if url is out, who steps in? this reverts a very good linebacking corp, which is essential to lovies crappy cover 2, to mediocre at best.

 

now to david haugh's column:

 

You trade your best all-around offensive player and locker-room compass for a sheet of fax paper.

 

this is a BS statement. first of all jones wanted out of chicago for a bigger payday. it was impossible to keep this lockeroom animosity going another season for the good of all.

 

that said... i DO agree that if you or your coaching staff hasn't determined if benson can fill this position alone then it's on our GM and coaching staff to cut bait (dump benson) and we have some real problems in our future with our management.

 

totally agree with haugh's comments on the angie reaches in the draft and his lack of offensive talent over the last 5 years. in fact angie's record of first day picks over his previous 5 drafts is very, very dismal.

 

the safety mess is a good example of bad management decisions on not only the GM but our coaching staff.

[nfoligno]

i strongly disagree with this statement. you state we have/had a DL loaded with talent. are you talking about interior linemen or the DL as a whole? it certainly can't be our interior line as angie let the entire squad with the exception of harris and garay, walk.

 

Of coarse I was talking about our DL as a whole. The point was who he played w/, not who was sitting on the bench.

 

tank johnson produced on the level, and more than what is expected, of a 2nd round draft pick.

 

I disagree w/ this. What exactly is your expectation of a 2nd round pick? Dockett was taken after Tank, and he has 8 sacks so far this year. I think you may be setting too low of an expection on our 2nd round draft picks. Though, looking back at some of our 2nd round draft picks, not sure I can blame you.

 

harris was NOT the only player getting double teamed last season in the interior line.

 

When harris was starting, I think Tank was finding himself facing single blocking the vast majority of the time. Last year, through the AZ game when our D was playing lights out and our DL was getting consistent pressure on the QB, Tank was among the few I felt was not getting it done. And that was at a time when I do not believe he was getting double teamed, as too many other players were drawing blocking focus.

 

tank has the quicks getting off the LOS which is very important with a solid push up the middle filling his hole. he was not pushed out anywhere close to what the talent angie replaced him with which is one reason our run defense this season was pathetic.

 

Never said he was getting pushed around. But he was not in there to be a run stopper. W/ the double teams on Harris, he was expected to penetrate, and that is where I feel he didn't get it done. As for who he was replaced w/ (Walker) there is no argument there. Adams easily has outplayed Walker, as did the the rookie Toeaina this past week. Walker has been a bust, but that has little to do w/ Tank.

 

tank also has some speed that can move him down the line to make the tackles out of his area and flush a qb.

 

He was supposed to have the ability to get to the QB, but I simply didn't see it.

 

players like tank are the guys you HOPE turn out this good with a later first day pick. a situation similar to a steve mcmichel being overshadowed by hampton.

 

Again, I think you under-value picks beyond the 1st round. Also, as he was taken 15th in the 2nd round, I would not call him a "later first day pick", which to me at least, would imply at least a 3rd round pick.

 

As for the McMichael comparison, are you freaking kidding me? Yea, Hampton got more glory, but at the same time, McMichael did FAR more than Tank. In McMichael's 3rd year as a starter, he had 8.5 sacks, followed by: 10, 8, 8, 7, 11.5, 7.5, 4, 9, 10.5 & 6. Tanks is so far from McMichael's league it isn't even close.

 

i still have to say that what tank was charged and used to release him with was total BS. you can thank these stupid cops for the amount of publicity tank got because they had to justify a complete waste of a huge amount of taxpayers money on a personal vendetta. if you don't believe me look at the charges. the only really stupid one on tanks part is the going out after hours to get rid of his live-in friend which violated his probation for doing basically nothing. even the trumped up charge in arizona was totally bogus. believe me i am not for coddling punks and thugs in the nfl and certainly not a homer, but this crap was to the extreme in his case and in my opinion based upon his disrespect of authority in his first charge. we NEVER should have released him.

 

Disagree again. While I can understand your opinion that some, or even all, of the chargers were not major, at the same time I think it was more an issue of him simply lacking respect enough to stay out of trouble, or even out of situations likely to result in trouble. While going to the bar hours after being released from jail is a great example, so it the incident that ended his career w/ the bears. His being out late, and driving after drinking, soon after release from a prison sentence, was simply the final straw. Likely thanks to his refusing to take the breathalizer and waiting hours later for a blood sample, he did not register over the legal limit, but at the same time, there was no question he had been out drinking, and then got behind the wheel of a car. If this was his only incident, it was be a bad decision, but not close to one likely to end his career w/ the bears. But it was not his only incident, and came after being told by the team he was on his last, final chance, and told he needed to be a good boy. Heck, he told the commish he was going to be a model citizen. Sorry, but his off-field decision making was so poor, that he was simply too great of a distraction.

 

Further, it should be pointed out that he was due to sit on the bench 1/2 the season, so it is further questionable how much he would have changed things if he had remained a bear.

 

another thing i do not agree with you is briggs. (another post about trading players) if we dump briggs this offseason we are in serious trouble with our defense. he is a young probowl player no matter what anyone spins the sitation as. that is NOT over-rated for a young guy to make it multiple years as all-pro and/or pro bowl player.

 

Did I say he was over-rated? I don't think I did. If he leaves the bears, and were signed by a bad team to be the main focus of a team, I think that team may be disappointed. But that is frankly irrelavent. On our team, his value is great. Whether he is over-rated or not league wide doesn't matter, as his value for OUR team is not over-rated.

 

At the same time, my argument against keeping him is based on money.

 

(a) IMHO, if we sign him, it will take away from our ability to help other areas. I believe you are VERY high on fixing the OL. Well, that is going to cost both money and draft picks, and if we give Briggs greater than $20m guaranteed, I think it unlikely we will spend big on the OL. Call it cheap ownership, cap management, or whatever you want, but I simply do not believe we would sign Briggs to the largest contract in bear history, only to then spend a great some on other areas of need, and greater need IMHO.

 

( While Harris is under contract for another year, we are going to have to begin looking into a new deal for him. We just gave both corners big bucks. We just gave A.Brown a new deal and Wale is still under his large deal, as is Urlacher. I simply question whether we could sign Briggs to as massive of a deal as he wants, and then w/ in a year, turn around and sign Harris to an even greater deal.

 

© While Briggs is a great player for us, the reality is OLB is not the hardest position to replace, especially when paired w/ Urlacher. CB and DL are far harder, and more expensive, to replace than LB. While I am NOT saying any LB we replaced Briggs w/ would be as good, I think we can replace him w/ a competant player. And in doing so, we could be saving $20m to spend in other areas, w/o creating a great weakness. Again, we will likely have a drop at LB, but I do not believe it would become a weakness. At the same time, we would have the money to allocate to other weaknesses to hopefully make them strengths.

 

if anyone couldn't see the difference in play when he sits and williams plays is just not looking close enough. url is definately on his way out of the nfl with the cronic back problems. his play will suffer and that is a fact. that leaves us with an average hillenmeyer, who plays situationally, and who? williams? also if we let briggs go, who COULD play the middle if url is out, who steps in? this reverts a very good linebacking corp, which is essential to lovies crappy cover 2, to mediocre at best.

 

I think it far from a fact Urlacher is on his way out, and his MNF performance would seem to be evidence to the opposite.

 

You say Williams can't replace Briggs (not to mention Okwo) but there was a point in time when it was wondered who would replace Holdman too. Again, while there well may be a drop, OLB is simply not the hardest position in the game to find quality.

 

You ask who would play inside, but Briggs doesn't fill that role now. When Urlacher has gone down, we moved Hunter inside, not Briggs, and then replaced Hunter on the outside. If Brigg is gone, I think it goes from being maybe the best in the league, to a good one. At the same time, if we can use that money to make pure weaknesses into good or even strengths, I think it a solid trade off. As for Lovie's cover two, it is actually the DL above everything that is key, as the key to his scheme is front line pass rush. So that takes me back to Harris. What if signing Briggs prevents you from keeping Harris. A pass rushing DT is far and away a greater piece to Lovie's system than the WLB.

[Lucky Luciano]

Of coarse I was talking about our DL as a whole. The point was who he played w/, not who was sitting on the bench.

 

how can you possibly compare talent/play between tackles and ends?? that is totally unrealistic.

 

I disagree w/ this. What exactly is your expectation of a 2nd round pick? Dockett was taken after Tank, and he has 8 sacks so far this year. I think you may be setting too low of an expection on our 2nd round draft picks. Though, looking back at some of our 2nd round draft picks, not sure I can blame you.

 

too low expectations? i think not. my expectation from a 2nd round pick is 'realistically' a good to very good player... a starter. if you pick a pro-bowl/HOF player in the second that is above and beyond the expectations but certainly a bonus. to miss at picking a starting player in round 2 is a failure of that pick. this ALSO holds true if you are picking in the bottom half of the 1st round, but.... if you pick in the top 10 of the draft, that player better be something more than good and at the least, very good to EXCELLENT!!! is it going to happen every time? no of course not but when it doesn't the rule STILL holds true as to failure or success of your decision to pick that guy.

 

Never said he was getting pushed around. But he was not in there to be a run stopper. W/ the double teams on Harris, he was expected to penetrate, and that is where I feel he didn't get it done.

 

first... here is what you stated: "First, I personally always felt Tank was over-rated. He played on a DL loaded w/ talent, and I simply never felt he produced near to the level he was expected to."

 

well then what did you mean by saying "Tank was over-rated"? if he wasn't getting "pushed around" or bottled up why do you say he was over rated? over rated by whom? who ever said tank was the best tackle in the nfl?

 

But he was not in there to be a run stopper.

 

every defensive tackle HAS to be able to stop the run. i understand you saying he isn't a budah but isn't that the point of his talents? he can stop the run AND push in the pocket to get to a qb and use his 300 lb quickness and speed to his advantage.

 

He was supposed to have the ability to get to the QB, but I simply didn't see it.

 

you can't be serious...

 

2006 PRO BOWL

richard seymour - pats - 4 sacks - solo 22

marcus stroud - jags - 2.5 sacks - solo 19

Jamal Williams - bolts - 2 sacks - solo 49

rod coleman - falcons - 6 sacks - solo 20

shaun rogers - lions - 3 sacks - solo 19

tommy harris - bears - 5 sacks - 22 solo

===============

tank johnson - 4 sacks - 22 solo tackles

 

am i saying he is a pro-bowl player? not neccessarily but please don't give me he is just a below average over rated player.

 

Again, I think you under-value picks beyond the 1st round. Also, as he was taken 15th in the 2nd round, I would not call him a "later first day pick", which to me at least, would imply at least a 3rd round pick.

 

pulhease. if you want to go tit for tat then fine. the truth of the matter is he was far removed from being a top pick in the draft.

 

As for the McMichael comparison, are you freaking kidding me? Yea, Hampton got more glory, but at the same time, McMichael did FAR more than Tank. In McMichael's 3rd year as a starter, he had 8.5 sacks, followed by: 10, 8, 8, 7, 11.5, 7.5, 4, 9, 10.5 & 6. Tanks is so far from McMichael's league it isn't even close.

 

again, if you had read my post even reasonably carefully, i NEVER compared player to player quality. only, and let me repeat this, ONLY, did i compare the two between the shadow hampton cast over mcmichel who was a very good player in his right to the shadow and hype harris (deservedly so) cast over tank in chicago.

 

by the way, you don't even have your facts straight. mcmichael only had 2.5 sacks in his 3rd year, and played in NINE games while starting ZERO.

 

I think it was more an issue of him simply lacking respect enough to stay out of trouble, or even out of situations likely to result in trouble. While going to the bar hours after being released from jail is a great example, so it the incident that ended his career w/ the bears. His being out late, and driving after drinking, soon after release from a prison sentence, was simply the final straw. Likely thanks to his refusing to take the breathalizer and waiting hours later for a blood sample, he did not register over the legal limit, but at the same time, there was no question he had been out drinking, and then got behind the wheel of a car. If this was his only incident, it was be a bad decision, but not close to one likely to end his career w/ the bears.

 

first: the entire raid on his house was a trumped up bogus load of horse $%!#. to bring in an armoured vehicle, use flash grenades WITH children in the house, for the crap they hoped to find is beyond ridiculous. in any event under those circumstances any responsible law enforcement personel could have defused this entire mess by 1. stopping in and talking to him at his home. 2. if that failed or they decided on another tac, pick him up at work and bring him home with a search warrant. you think they couldn't figure out where he worked???

 

add to this his HUGE criminal results ended up charging him with untagged guns that were registered in arizona (where they should be since this was his home state). are you kidding me? they were in his freakin chicago home. he wasn't packed running around the town. those stupid cops and the idiot media made it sound like they just busted up a terrorist cell.

 

also i am amazed at your take "Likely thanks to his refusing to take the breathalizer and waiting hours later for a blood sample, he did not register over the legal limit, but at the same time, there was no question he had been out drinking, and then got behind the wheel of a car.", aren't you a lawyer? where i came from there is a huge difference between "likely" and proven facts. no question he had a drink? so what if he did as long as he wasn't drunk driving. the amount in his system was like a single drink hours before if i'm not mistaken (and well could be).

 

so on this other BS charge that was dropped, angie says i can't take it anymore? this after he keeps this manning jr. thug who beats the $%!& out of some geek with two or three other athletes???? are you kidding me?

 

when this happened, tank is suspended or going to be suspended by the nfl. he is not subject to work at this time, he is in his home state, has not done ANYTHING illegal other than drive late at night. so freakin what? i drive whenever i dammed well want to whether it's 3 p.m. or 3 a.m. he is fired by angie before they even know the facts.

 

in regard to briggs: nfoligno - Did I say he was over-rated?

 

what does this sound like to you?

 

WMB quote: 1. Let Briggs go. He is good...but not as good as he thinks...the D was bad this year with him here IMO that means he isnt a difference maker. Besides Chicago area uteruses could use a break.

 

nfoligno: Agreed.

 

i have stated and believe briggs is not a luxery but a serious need. with url's age and injury catching up to him, where do we go? would you feel great with hilly at MLB along with williams on the outside and some mystery backer on the other side? we would seriously get killed. if you don't believe that look at the bengles. they can't keep up with their offense without good backers. you think we could?

 

"a) IMHO, if we sign him, it will take away from our ability to help other areas. I believe you are VERY high on fixing the OL. Well, that is going to cost both money and draft picks, and if we give Briggs greater than $20m guaranteed, I think it unlikely we will spend big on the OL."

 

there is so much wrong with this team right now i don't see us even in the hunt for a superbowl next season. you could reasonably say we are rebuilding yet again, thanks to angie. count the holes and tell me where 1 or 2 FA's will make us a team to beat the pats. if we had THREE first round picks we couldn't get this team on an even keal to do that. can you even tell me who the qb will be??

 

is it possible to come out of this tail spin? yes but the odds are you are going to crash and burn first.

 

"I think it far from a fact Urlacher is on his way out, and his MNF performance would seem to be evidence to the opposite"

 

you are whistling past the graveyard. if he has an arthritic back he is on the serious downward slope. unless this is some minor crap he is spouting, he can't lift to keep strength, he can't even run normally and it's going to get worse quickly. he could coast for a few more years with good talent around him, but if he is paired with rookies and average linebackers don't count on him overcompensating for poorer talent anymore. if you think hilly can replace url, you are in for a serious surprise if that happens. briggs could possibly do it if we change our scheme to match what player we have if needed.

 

as far as your reference to "Holdman", anyone could have replaced that bum. so what is the point on that? also if angie is worth spit he can find the money NEXT season to sign harris.

[brletich]

Good to see Choad and Nfo's marathon discourses back!

[nfoligno]

how can you possibly compare talent/play between tackles and ends?? that is totally unrealistic.

 

How you can seperate them? How can you not see how the play of the DEs has an affect on the play of the DTs. If you have DEs that are forcing double teams, then your DTs are going to benefit. If you have DEs that are forcing the QB to step up in the pocket, then your DTs have a shorter area to cover to get to the QB. I do not understand how you can not see the correlation between the DT and DE.

 

too low expectations? i think not. my expectation from a 2nd round pick is 'realistically' a good to very good player... a starter. if you pick a pro-bowl/HOF player in the second that is above and beyond the expectations but certainly a bonus. to miss at picking a starting player in round 2 is a failure of that pick. this ALSO holds true if you are picking in the bottom half of the 1st round, but.... if you pick in the top 10 of the draft, that player better be something more than good and at the least, very good to EXCELLENT!!! is it going to happen every time? no of course not but when it doesn't the rule STILL holds true as to failure or success of your decision to pick that guy.

first... here is what you stated: "First, I personally always felt Tank was over-rated. He played on a DL loaded w/ talent, and I simply never felt he produced near to the level he was expected to."

 

well then what did you mean by saying "Tank was over-rated"? if he wasn't getting "pushed around" or bottled up why do you say he was over rated? over rated by whom? who ever said tank was the best tackle in the nfl?

every defensive tackle HAS to be able to stop the run. i understand you saying he isn't a budah but isn't that the point of his talents? he can stop the run AND push in the pocket to get to a qb and use his 300 lb quickness and speed to his advantage.

you can't be serious...

 

2006 PRO BOWL

richard seymour - pats - 4 sacks - solo 22

marcus stroud - jags - 2.5 sacks - solo 19

Jamal Williams - bolts - 2 sacks - solo 49

rod coleman - falcons - 6 sacks - solo 20

shaun rogers - lions - 3 sacks - solo 19

tommy harris - bears - 5 sacks - 22 solo

===============

tank johnson - 4 sacks - 22 solo tackles

 

am i saying he is a pro-bowl player? not neccessarily but please don't give me he is just a below average over rated player.

pulhease. if you want to go tit for tat then fine. the truth of the matter is he was far removed from being a top pick in the draft.

again, if you had read my post even reasonably carefully, i NEVER compared player to player quality. only, and let me repeat this, ONLY, did i compare the two between the shadow hampton cast over mcmichel who was a very good player in his right to the shadow and hype harris (deservedly so) cast over tank in chicago.

 

Did I say he was below average? I don't believe I did. I said he was over-rated. You ask who over-rates him? Well, to start w/, how about all those who feel his loss was so tragic to this team. An average player's departure would not mean so much. How about how great of a deal fans made about him. Sorry, I simply never felt he was so great to be worth all the trouble. I personally wanted to cut him long before we did, as I didn't believe he was good enough to warrant the number of chances he received. It isn't like I am saying he sucked. I simply feel that he is an average DT who failed to step up the way I think most had hoped while next to some considerable talent.

 

As for your mention of Hampton/McMichael, chalk it up anyway you want, but your analogy is a reach. Back then, you had a great DT in the shadow of an even greater one. Now? A very average DT in the shadow of a great one.

 

by the way, you don't even have your facts straight. mcmichael only had 2.5 sacks in his 3rd year, and played in NINE games while starting ZERO.

 

And you say I should read your posts better. I believe if you check, I said in his 3rd year "as a starter". He wasn't a starter his rooke year.

 

first: the entire raid on his house was a trumped up bogus load of horse $%!#. to bring in an armoured vehicle, use flash grenades WITH children in the house, for the crap they hoped to find is beyond ridiculous. in any event under those circumstances any responsible law enforcement personel could have defused this entire mess by 1. stopping in and talking to him at his home. 2. if that failed or they decided on another tac, pick him up at work and bring him home with a search warrant. you think they couldn't figure out where he worked???

 

You want to say the police used too much force. Fine. Personally, I think those who make a big fuss about the police are to easily passing on the reasons they were there in the first place. Neighbors had reported gun fire on numerous occasions. Tank was out back shooting his guns. I really could care less about getting into a gun debate. I live in Texas and guns are part of nearly every discussion. But in my neighbors are shotting guns in their backyard, I don't care what sort of measures the police take. I have kids, and the thought of their playing in the backyards while a neighbor thinks "it would be fun" to shoot his gun in the backyard, meer years from my children.... Well, lets just say I won't be looking at that individual as a victim in the matter.

 

add to this his HUGE criminal results ended up charging him with untagged guns that were registered in arizona (where they should be since this was his home state). are you kidding me? they were in his freakin chicago home. he wasn't packed running around the town. those stupid cops and the idiot media made it sound like they just busted up a terrorist cell.

 

That is all he was charged w/ because discharge of a firearm would have been near impossible to prove, but that was the greater reason he was raided. Further, there was the drug issue. The police had found evidence of drugs prior to the raid, but because his friend claimed all drugs in the house, Tank was not charged w/ that.

 

I do not know you. I do not know where you live, or if you have a family. But if you lived in the burbs w/ a family, and your neighbor had on several occasions been shooting weapons in his backyard, I have a feeling you would not be so lax in your opinion.

 

also i am amazed at your take "Likely thanks to his refusing to take the breathalizer and waiting hours later for a blood sample, he did not register over the legal limit, but at the same time, there was no question he had been out drinking, and then got behind the wheel of a car.", aren't you a lawyer? where i came from there is a huge difference between "likely" and proven facts. no question he had a drink? so what if he did as long as he wasn't drunk driving. the amount in his system was like a single drink hours before if i'm not mistaken (and well could be).

 

First, while I work in the legal field, I am not an attorney. Second, his blood alcohol level was .072 w/ the legal limit being .08. He was barely under. I used a BAC calculator. If Tank (300lb male) drank about 10 beers in a 3 hour stretch, he would have hit that .072. Now I realize there are multiple factors that alter this. What was he drinking? for how long? But the point I am making is, w/ a BAC of .072, he did NOT simply drink a beer, or even just a couple over the course of the night. .072 is a significant level.

 

Further, his BAC was just under the legal limit. As I recall, Tank refused the breathalizer when he was pulled over. He said he would take a blood test, but that is not done on the spot, and most often takes time before it can be administered. Ever moment Tank adds before his test is a moment his BAC decreases. Sorry, but this is an old rule of thumb on what to do if you are pulled over after drinking. First, you refuse the breathalizer. If you think there is a chance you won't pass, you do not take the test. You say you do not trust them, but will take a blood test. If they are quick to set that up, you backout. At this point, in most states, you will lose your liscense for 6 months, but avoid the DWI. If the blood test takes a while before they can administer (which is usually the case) then you can take it depending on how drunk you were.

 

So you can once again make Tank out to be the victim, but he is far from it. He was drinking, and not just a beer or two, and then got behind the wheel of a car. And he did this not that long after being released from prison and telling everyone he would be a choir boy.

 

so on this other BS charge that was dropped, angie says i can't take it anymore? this after he keeps this manning jr. thug who beats the $%!& out of some geek with two or three other athletes???? are you kidding me?

 

I didn't like the DM thing, but it happened prior to becoming a bear, and as far as I know, was his only incident. As opposed to Tank who could not avoid police and bad situations.

 

when this happened, tank is suspended or going to be suspended by the nfl. he is not subject to work at this time, he is in his home state, has not done ANYTHING illegal other than drive late at night. so freakin what? i drive whenever i dammed well want to whether it's 3 p.m. or 3 a.m. he is fired by angie before they even know the facts.

what does this sound like to you?

 

Me? It sounds to me like Tank was on his last, last chance, and didn't respect that. He was drinking and driving, not simply driving at 3am. I would also argue that it further an issue of Tank needing to show he knew how to not just avoid trouble, but avoid the situations that often lead to trouble. For celebs, little positive happens on the streets at 3am. It is a situation someone in his situation should have tried better to avoid, and simply reinforced the believe he has no clue how to keep out of those same situations that got him in trouble.

 

i have stated and believe briggs is not a luxery but a serious need. with url's age and injury catching up to him, where do we go? would you feel great with hilly at MLB along with williams on the outside and some mystery backer on the other side? we would seriously get killed. if you don't believe that look at the bengles. they can't keep up with their offense without good backers. you think we could?

 

The difference is you think Urlacher is at the end of his career or something. I think he is simply having a bad year, along w/ most everyone on the team.

 

there is so much wrong with this team right now i don't see us even in the hunt for a superbowl next season. you could reasonably say we are rebuilding yet again, thanks to angie. count the holes and tell me where 1 or 2 FA's will make us a team to beat the pats. if we had THREE first round picks we couldn't get this team on an even keal to do that. can you even tell me who the qb will be??

 

Beat the Pats? If that is the bar set, I think most every team in the league is in a building mode.

 

I can see moves being made which could get us back into the playoffs. While many moves should be made, I think there are a couple key moves that would get us back rather quickly. One, you need to address the OL. QB, RB, WR do not matter if the OL can not block. I would love to replace them all, but that isn't realistic. The OL is a 2-3 year plan. I would spend money to add Fanaca (or an alternative stud) and my top pick would most likely go to OT. There are a pair of juniors who could come out, and I pray they do, as that would really strengthen the draft for OTs. I would likely start the rookie on the right side for a year (w/ the plan on swapping he and Tait the next). Fanaca inside and a rookie outside starts to fix the problem. Next, I add McNabb. If McNabb is done, then so are we, but I personally think he is not done. Not by any means.

 

Make these personnel moves, along w/ some coaching changes, and I think we can be back in the playoffs next year.

 

"I think it far from a fact Urlacher is on his way out, and his MNF performance would seem to be evidence to the opposite"

 

you are whistling past the graveyard. if he has an arthritic back he is on the serious downward slope. unless this is some minor crap he is spouting, he can't lift to keep strength, he can't even run normally and it's going to get worse quickly. he could coast for a few more years with good talent around him, but if he is paired with rookies and average linebackers don't count on him overcompensating for poorer talent anymore. if you think hilly can replace url, you are in for a serious surprise if that happens. briggs could possibly do it if we change our scheme to match what player we have if needed.

 

Reports have been all over the place w/ regard to Urlacher. The fact is we do not know. But I simply am skeptical w/ the idea he is done.

 

as far as your reference to "Holdman", anyone could have replaced that bum. so what is the point on that? also if angie is worth spit he can find the money NEXT season to sign harris.

 

If Angie is worth a spit, he will not yet sign Harris. It isn't like Harris' price tag is going to go up. He is already stating he should be among the top paid defensive players in the league. He has put himself in Freeney ($30m) tier. His price is far more likely to decrease, particularly since he has not proven he can stay healthy. I would wait to sign him knowing we can always tag him.

[Lucky Luciano]

nfoligno - How you can seperate them? How can you not see how the play of the DEs has an affect on the play of the DTs. If you have DEs that are forcing double teams, then your DTs are going to benefit. If you have DEs that are forcing the QB to step up in the pocket, then your DTs have a shorter area to cover to get to the QB. I do not understand how you can not see the correlation between the DT and DE.

 

this is in regards to comparing DT's. yes, the DE's play effects the DT's. it also effects every player on the entire field! i do agree that all-pro players playing next to you will elevate your play to a certain degree but the difference can't make a bad player into a good one no matter how you look at it. it would be nearly impossible to judge the talent of any single player in the nfl if you held this standard.

 

you seem to believe that the process to determine the value of a DT should correlate directly to the DE's playing next to him. this is incorrect. for instance... if that were the case when discussing safeties or corners you would lump them into one catagory, defensive backs, to determine the quality of a player not even playing the same position. i'm sorry but that is wrong. you base the value of a player by what he accomplishes at HIS designated position. that is the only way it could possibly work.

 

Did I say he was below average? I don't believe I did. I said he was over-rated. You ask who over-rates him? Well, to start w/, how about all those who feel his loss was so tragic to this team. An average player's departure would not mean so much. How about how great of a deal fans made about him. Sorry, I simply never felt he was so great to be worth all the trouble. I personally wanted to cut him long before we did, as I didn't believe he was good enough to warrant the number of chances he received. It isn't like I am saying he sucked. I simply feel that he is an average DT who failed to step up the way I think most had hoped while next to some considerable talent.

 

if he is average then what do you consider the replacements angie has put on our roster? which tackles in the league are above average that you think we could get?

 

who are all those "who feel his loss was so tragic to this team"? what are you talking about? he is average because you didn't make a big deal about it or the fans aren't diving into the stands with pitchforks and torches? have you heard any of the fans upset at how pathetic our run defense is? any pundits or analysts? anyone at all?? are YOU happy with it? so yea, you wanted to cut him a long time ago, and replace him with WHO to make this team better?

 

here are some stats to ponder...

 

bear defense

 

2004

ian scott - RDT - 13 GS

al boone - RDT - 2 GS

tank - RDT - 1 GS

tommy harris - 16 GS

rank against the run: rushing attempts - 27th; yds - 2050 - 25th; TD - 9 - 8th; yds per att - 4.1 - 16th

 

2005

ian scott - RDT - 13 GS

al boone - RDT - 1 GS

tank - RDT - 4 GS

tommy harris - 16 GS

 

rank against the run: rushing attempts - 18th; yds - 1637 - 4th; TD - 9 - 4th; yds per att - 3.7 - 9th

 

2006

ian scott - RDT - 7 GS

al boone - RDT - 4 GS

tank - RDT - 10 GS

tommy harris - 11 GS

 

rank against the run: rushing attempts - 5th; yds - 1590 - 6th; TD - 7 - 2nd; yds per att - 4.0 - 11th

 

2007 - the stats below are over a 14 game span. the player info is 15 games.

anthony adams - RDT - 8 GS - .5 sacks - 21 solo

darwin walker - RDT - 7 GS - 1 sacks - 12 solo

mat toeaina - RDT - 0 GS - 0 sacks - 2 solo

jimmy kennedy - RDT - 0 GS - 0 sacks - 0 solo

tank - GONE

tommy harris - 14 GS

 

rank against the run: rushing attempts - 26th; yds - 1737 - 25th; TD - 16 - 29th; yds per att - 4.2 - 22nd

 

do you see any difference from the 2007 league defensive standings and the 2006 or 2005?

 

all combined in 2007, our right tackles have a total of 1.5 sacks. also most of the large running gains were over the RDT and RDE position. say what you want, the stats don't lie. our defense against the run dropped like a lead balloon since tank has been gone. our sacks by our RDT's have declined by over 150%, from 4 to 1.5. coincidence?

 

tanks statistics are comparable to 2006 pro-bowl tackles so just to set the record straight, if tank is "average" and "over-rated" just what do you think a good to very good defensive tackles numbers should look like? i really would like an answer to this.

 

by me... "by the way, you don't even have your facts straight. mcmichael only had 2.5 sacks in his 3rd year, and played in NINE games while starting ZERO."

 

by you... "And you say I should read your posts better. I believe if you check, I said in his 3rd year "as a starter". He wasn't a starter his rooke year."

 

maybe we both are a little confused. i could only have logically assumed that you were talking about a player in his 3rd year and NOT his 3rd year as a "starter". otherwise what sense does it make? tank has been in the NFL for only 3 years (prior to this one) and has had only ONE year as a designated starter and that was 2006!!

 

You want to say the police used too much force. Fine. Personally, I think those who make a big fuss about the police are to easily passing on the reasons they were there in the first place. Neighbors had reported gun fire on numerous occasions. Tank was out back shooting his guns. I really could care less about getting into a gun debate. I live in Texas and guns are part of nearly every discussion. But in my neighbors are shotting guns in their backyard, I don't care what sort of measures the police take. I have kids, and the thought of their playing in the backyards while a neighbor thinks "it would be fun" to shoot his gun in the backyard, meer years from my children.... Well, lets just say I won't be looking at that individual as a victim in the matter.

 

are you serious? what reasons in the first place were those? the biggest bitch was about his DOGS barking.

 

does THAT require a 6 week investigation to you? you think they might have knocked on his door and asked him?

 

That is all he was charged w/ because discharge of a firearm would have been near impossible to prove, but that was the greater reason he was raided. Further, there was the drug issue. The police had found evidence of drugs prior to the raid, but because his friend claimed all drugs in the house, Tank was not charged w/ that.

 

i agree. discharging a firearm nearly 2 months before, near halloween, would be kind of hard to prove. in fact it would be impossible to prove it even WAS a firearm and not fireworks. but then i guess it wasn't important enough for the police to bother showing up, when they were allegedly called, to find out. you stated on numerous occasions the police were called with reports of gunfire. if what you say is true where did you read this and please post a link. even IF that is the case, nobody knows who was shooting and who wasn't. did the police investigate any of these alleged multiple gunshot filings?

 

you also stated "Tank was out back shooting his guns". there is no possible way you could know this and it is purely speculation on your part. you also infer a couple of ounces of weed was involved but claimed by posey. end of that story don't ya think?

 

on any item or combined items that were listed by these cops did ANY warrant a 6 week investigation, a police armoured vehicle, a swat team, and flash grenades while children were in the residence???? that is plain insane.

 

I do not know you. I do not know where you live, or if you have a family. But if you lived in the burbs w/ a family, and your neighbor had on several occasions been shooting weapons in his backyard, I have a feeling you would not be so lax in your opinion.

 

i guess i am not so afraid of my neighbors that i wouldn't talk to them about something like this if it happened and it bothered me enough to call the cops.

 

one final note on tank. however you spin it he was not charged with anything on his DUI. he was under the limit for DUI in arizona and probably anywhere in the US. that states there is no crime committed. that other bogus crap arizona wants to use is just a semi legal way to harass anyone they feel like and bust anyone they want to garner fines. so he was let go for no reason other than a traffic violation and i'm not even sure they proceeded with that.

 

The difference is you think Urlacher is at the end of his career or something. I think he is simply having a bad year, along w/ most everyone on the team.

 

it's not a question of what i think. it's a point of reality. i am going on what url has stated himself that he has a spinal arthritic condition. spinal problems are the beginning of the end of an athletes career especially one in a high contact sport. it only stands to reason if you have spinal damage you won't be lifting to your max and lose body mass and muscle tissue not to mention the effect it has on your ability to run or use your legs at a pace you were accustomed to before.

 

can he stay around a while? probably. but to think his abilities won't erode significantly over a short span of years, if what he states is true, is just wishful thinking.

 

Beat the Pats? If that is the bar set, I think most every team in the league is in a building mode.

 

I can see moves being made which could get us back into the playoffs. While many moves should be made, I think there are a couple key moves that would get us back rather quickly. One, you need to address the OL. QB, RB, WR do not matter if the OL can not block. I would love to replace them all, but that isn't realistic. The OL is a 2-3 year plan. I would spend money to add Fanaca (or an alternative stud) and my top pick would most likely go to OT. There are a pair of juniors who could come out, and I pray they do, as that would really strengthen the draft for OTs. I would likely start the rookie on the right side for a year (w/ the plan on swapping he and Tait the next). Fanaca inside and a rookie outside starts to fix the problem. Next, I add McNabb. If McNabb is done, then so are we, but I personally think he is not done. Not by any means.

 

Make these personnel moves, along w/ some coaching changes, and I think we can be back in the playoffs next year.

 

is just getting into the playoffs (which in reality could be 8-8 in any given season) where the bar is set for achievment for this franchise? although management has seemed to think so over the last 50 years it is not enough by far.

 

your statement of needs to address is a complete blowup of a team. your goal set IS a rebuilding mode. 2-3 years to develop a line along with FA aquisitions including WR's is certainly not tweaking. you talk about adding the top guard in FA but at what cost? he alone will eat up any and all cap room almost immediately. where would you even possibly find the money mcnabb would want and fit it under our cap especially if we pick high in the draft to get the players you hope for?

 

to think we can build a team to beat ACTUAL superbowl contenders with the roster we have now in one season is ludicous unless some help comes from unlooked for places. like existing young linemen already on our squad or orton developing OR really gambling the on grossman by offering him an extension and if you lose that gamble you are done for at least 5 years.

 

we have absolutely no key players on offense at this point... none!!

 

the whole crux of this problem rests squarely on angelo's shoulders by not drafting quality first day players over the last 5 years!! i see it as taking us a minimum of 2-3 years again if all goes well to be a SB contender with teeth.

[madlithuanian]

You guys are cracking me up!

 

I'd be ready to say "just let it go!", but I'm becoming far too entertained!

[DrunkBomber]

These are the longest posts Ive ever seen that werent pasted

[DABEARSDABOMB]

I am not a fan of Haugh's at all, but I do not believe the article was written as an, "I told you so". He listed reasons for the bears decline. That isn't to say he saw each and every one of these as being negative at the time, but in looking back, these are the things he said hurt the team.

You really can't say many people would have said the things the Bears did were wrong. A year ago, hell at the beginning of the season, the Bears were still the talk of the NFC and for the most part were one of the most respected franchises in football. Things went south quickly and the Bears completely collapsed. Some due to injuries, some due to poor coaching, and a lot due to poor play.

[ChileBear]

You really can't say many people would have said the things the Bears did were wrong. A year ago, hell at the beginning of the season, the Bears were still the talk of the NFC and for the most part were one of the most respected franchises in football. Things went south quickly and the Bears completely collapsed. Some due to injuries, some due to poor coaching, and a lot due to poor play.

 

Things definitely caught up with the team this year. An unholy convergence of injuries, overconfidence, coaching brain farts, missed assignments, bad performance, dirty uniforms, poor groundskeeping--you name it, it happened. After so much expectation at the start of the season, the fall, for me at least, has been hard. Crap, I hate going back to "let's see what next season brings."