Stinger226 Posted May 3 Report Share Posted May 3 His arm talent is exceptional, but last year his decision making took a hit. When you hold the ball for 60 plays over 6 seconds, thats poor decision making. Because of the lack of talent around him, he held the ball to long trying to make home run plays instead of taking what the defense gave him. 2022 he was king for his decision making, Heisman Trophy. Its great to see him shine on his play, but when he makes mistakes, that counts to. That contributed to his fumbles also. His success this year will be based on how well he accepts coaching, no coach is telling you to hold the ball for more than 4 seconds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearFan PHX Posted May 3 Report Share Posted May 3 Bullshit. Thats a ridiculous narrative from the media. I just posted a video with over 100 examples of Caleb playing in structure and not holding the ball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mongo3451 Posted May 3 Report Share Posted May 3 His release is right up there with the greatest I've ever seen. Polar opposite of Justin in every aspect. He's fiery and plays with a sense of urgency in which I had a problem with Justin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearFan PHX Posted May 3 Report Share Posted May 3 7 minutes ago, Mongo3451 said: His release is right up there with the greatest I've ever seen. Polar opposite of Justin in every aspect. He's fiery and plays with a sense of urgency in which I had a problem with Justin. thats what i see too. And even when he does hold the ball hunting big plays, hes always looking downfield, again unlike Fields. Im not here to diss on Fields now that he's gone, but I think we keep putting the criticisms of Fields on Caleb for some reason, and they arent true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam Posted May 3 Author Report Share Posted May 3 The whole narrative about a decline in Williams' performance in 2023 is way overblown. He only threw 5 INTs all season and 3 came in one game (against ND). So outside of that game his INT% was 0.57% which is actually insanely low. He had a 1.0% INT in 2022. For the season in 2023, his INT% was 1.3%, which is still elite. So did he force 5 balls trying to make a play, yes he did, but if that is the worst, I will take it every day and twice on Sunday. Also, his raw numbers were slightly down from his Heisman season, but there were two factors, one he played in two fewer games, and two, the team around him was far inferior to the team in 2022. The crazy thing is, even though he had less opportunities, he made the most of them with a better Comp% 68.6% and Y/A at 9.4, both career highs. He also rushed for 11 TDs in 2023 which gets overlooked because he wasn't a running QB like Daniels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam Posted May 3 Author Report Share Posted May 3 1 hour ago, Mongo3451 said: His release is right up there with the greatest I've ever seen. Polar opposite of Justin in every aspect. He's fiery and plays with a sense of urgency in which I had a problem with Justin. It is night and day. Williams is a natural thrower. Fields always felt like a super athlete trying to play QB. It is not natural for him. Now entering his 4th season in the NFL, he still is somewhat robotic. That doesn't even account for the actual delayed release which gets worse with the hitch. Watching a lot of Williams tape, when he makes the decision to throw the ball, it is on the target almost immediately, regardless of his body position/angle, etc. It is pretty impressive to watch. However, most of the time, he is just dropping back and throwing the ball in rhythm. For a baseball analogy, Williams is a guy that is a technician, 5-6 different pitches, with all kinds of variations and arm angles. Fields is the flamethrower that has two pitches a fastball and curve. It is either feast or famine with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearFan PHX Posted May 3 Report Share Posted May 3 1 hour ago, adam said: The whole narrative about a decline in Williams' performance in 2023 is way overblown. He only threw 5 INTs all season and 3 came in one game (against ND). So outside of that game his INT% was 0.57% which is actually insanely low. He had a 1.0% INT in 2022. For the season in 2023, his INT% was 1.3%, which is still elite. So did he force 5 balls trying to make a play, yes he did, but if that is the worst, I will take it every day and twice on Sunday. Also, his raw numbers were slightly down from his Heisman season, but there were two factors, one he played in two fewer games, and two, the team around him was far inferior to the team in 2022. The crazy thing is, even though he had less opportunities, he made the most of them with a better Comp% 68.6% and Y/A at 9.4, both career highs. He also rushed for 11 TDs in 2023 which gets overlooked because he wasn't a running QB like Daniels. thats what I see too. Plus, holding the ball because you are big play hunting because your defense is awful and you need to be scoring 40 to win, is a different kind of "holds the ball too long" than being indecisive and gun shy. And Caleb is not either of those things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stinger226 Posted May 4 Report Share Posted May 4 10 hours ago, BearFan PHX said: thats what I see too. Plus, holding the ball because you are big play hunting because your defense is awful and you need to be scoring 40 to win, is a different kind of "holds the ball too long" than being indecisive and gun shy. And Caleb is not either of those things. You go from ( you cant say anything nice about Justin mode) to you're not allowed to say anything negative about Caleb mode) people break down Caleb and he's not perfect. It doesnt matter why you hold the ball to long but holding the ball to long is a negative. Unlike you I'm not trashing Caleb because of it, just pointing out he still has some developing to do. Im all in on him but he is not yet walking on water, because a poor OL and bad WR options contributed to that just like many other QBs that are put in that postion. Mahomes holds the ball to long a lot and he is the best QB in the league. https://www.nfl.com/prospects/caleb-williams/32005749-4c17-6897-a516-9754023602e6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam Posted May 4 Author Report Share Posted May 4 2 hours ago, Stinger226 said: You go from ( you cant say anything nice about Justin mode) to you're not allowed to say anything negative about Caleb mode) people break down Caleb and he's not perfect. It doesnt matter why you hold the ball to long but holding the ball to long is a negative. Unlike you I'm not trashing Caleb because of it, just pointing out he still has some developing to do. Im all in on him but he is not yet walking on water, because a poor OL and bad WR options contributed to that just like many other QBs that are put in that postion. Mahomes holds the ball to long a lot and he is the best QB in the league. https://www.nfl.com/prospects/caleb-williams/32005749-4c17-6897-a516-9754023602e6 I try my best to separate everything. No player is perfect, and they each have their own strengths and weaknesses. Caleb does hold onto the ball longer than other QBs, Caleb does try to play hero ball more than others, and he doesn't take the checkdown sometimes and tries to make a higher danger throw. The good thing is, those are correctable and we are not in Year 4 with the same issues. The thing about this year is, compared to Fields rookie year when there were zero expectations, Williams better put up some numbers because he is in one of the best situations a QB has ever been in. This also may be the best situation he is ever in because if they lose Allen after this season, they may not replace him with someone as good as him. If they let Jenkins go, a rookie or replacement may not be as good as him. So as much as we can give Williams a pass on some things because he is a rookie, he is not going to get a lot of forgiveness given the situation he is currently in. We also should expect Williams to get better, which is the exciting part for me. If he is good as a rookie but improves, we really do have our franchise QB and all long-time Bears fans can finally sit back and enjoy the ride. I will do my best to not even mention Fields anymore because it does matter what he did or does, same as Trubisky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stinger226 Posted May 4 Report Share Posted May 4 48 minutes ago, adam said: I try my best to separate everything. No player is perfect, and they each have their own strengths and weaknesses. Caleb does hold onto the ball longer than other QBs, Caleb does try to play hero ball more than others, and he doesn't take the checkdown sometimes and tries to make a higher danger throw. The good thing is, those are correctable and we are not in Year 4 with the same issues. The thing about this year is, compared to Fields rookie year when there were zero expectations, Williams better put up some numbers because he is in one of the best situations a QB has ever been in. This also may be the best situation he is ever in because if they lose Allen after this season, they may not replace him with someone as good as him. If they let Jenkins go, a rookie or replacement may not be as good as him. So as much as we can give Williams a pass on some things because he is a rookie, he is not going to get a lot of forgiveness given the situation he is currently in. We also should expect Williams to get better, which is the exciting part for me. If he is good as a rookie but improves, we really do have our franchise QB and all long-time Bears fans can finally sit back and enjoy the ride. I will do my best to not even mention Fields anymore because it does matter what he did or does, same as Trubisky. I wasnt refering to you when I said that but , I think he has the best season ever for a rookie, and yes those are correctable traits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearFan PHX Posted May 4 Report Share Posted May 4 5 hours ago, Stinger226 said: You go from ( you cant say anything nice about Justin mode) to you're not allowed to say anything negative about Caleb mode) people break down Caleb and he's not perfect. It doesnt matter why you hold the ball to long but holding the ball to long is a negative. Unlike you I'm not trashing Caleb because of it, just pointing out he still has some developing to do. Im all in on him but he is not yet walking on water, because a poor OL and bad WR options contributed to that just like many other QBs that are put in that postion. Mahomes holds the ball to long a lot and he is the best QB in the league. https://www.nfl.com/prospects/caleb-williams/32005749-4c17-6897-a516-9754023602e6 nah, its got nothing to do with a character flaw on my part LOL thats an old gambit thats WAY played out here. My opinion and what I see on film is not some attitude problem with me. It's just the truth. Fields held the ball too long routinely. He was indecisive. He had a problem pulling the trigger on open receivers, and it wasnt because he was big play hunting. Caleb was big play hunting - VERY different, and there are over 100 examples of him getting the ball out in rhythm in that video I just posted. So it's not at all the same thing. Caleb can play in structure and tempo and proves it routinely. Fields didnt. So yeah, there are lots of things Caleb has to grow on - like holding the ball dangerously away from his body, and taking what the defense gives you., But he is not indecisive or afraid to pull the trigger. Watch the film I posted, there are 100 examples. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stinger226 Posted May 4 Report Share Posted May 4 8 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said: nah, its got nothing to do with a character flaw on my part LOL thats an old gambit thats WAY played out here. My opinion and what I see on film is not some attitude problem with me. It's just the truth. Fields held the ball too long routinely. He was indecisive. He had a problem pulling the trigger on open receivers, and it wasnt because he was big play hunting. Caleb was big play hunting - VERY different, and there are over 100 examples of him getting the ball out in rhythm in that video I just posted. So it's not at all the same thing. Caleb can play in structure and tempo and proves it routinely. Fields didnt. So yeah, there are lots of things Caleb has to grow on - like holding the ball dangerously away from his body, and taking what the defense gives you., But he is not indecisive or afraid to pull the trigger. Watch the film I posted, there are 100 examples. The comments was not an attack on you, it was pointing out you seem to look at things in absolutes. Fields was bad so everything you said focused on the negstive and now with Caleb you seem protective of him. example: he can be still be great and still held the ball to long numberous times. Its not calling him trash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearFan PHX Posted May 4 Report Share Posted May 4 LOL no, you just seemed to say something that wasnt correct, and when I point it out, you say it's because I am all against Justin and all for Caleb. You said I "dont allow" other opinions. Nah bro, Im just saying youre wrong. That's my opinion. When youre wrong its not because someone sees things in absolutes, or anything like that - youre just wrong. The problem here isnt in my way of viewing things, it's that youve digested a false media narrative that i just proved wasnt true with facts on tape. Watch it and then tell me Caleb cant play in structure and tempo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixote Posted May 4 Report Share Posted May 4 44 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said: i just proved wasnt true with facts on tape. Watch it and then tell me Caleb cant play in structure and tempo. No offense, but the tape sucked. LOL By sucked I mean it didn't really prove much at all. Whoever compiled the tape tried to find every play that Williams stayed in their pocket and passed. Was all of those games this past year? I know some were duplicates from a different angle. I certainly didn't try to count the number of plays, but if you said a hundred, I believe you. The problem is that he was 266/388 at USC last year. So you are touting this to show he stays in the pocket with an awesome quick release, but only for less than a third of the passes he threw? 100+ out of 388 passes? We've all seen his highlight films. I actually prefer them. That is the Caleb Williams the Bears coaching staff will be working with to correct his issues when playing with big men, not college boys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearFan PHX Posted May 4 Report Share Posted May 4 I didnt assert that Williams ALWAYS played in the pocket - I defeated the argument that he CANT play in structure in the pocket. There are 100 examples of him doing it. He doesnt hold the ball too long as a matter of course, like Fields did. He is guilty sometimes of big play hunting. But thats not the same as being indecisive and holding the ball too long as a failure of being able to operate an offense. Fields literally CANT do this, Caleb did it dozens of times on film. Thats what i proved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixote Posted May 4 Report Share Posted May 4 4 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said: I didnt assert that Williams ALWAYS played in the pocket - I defeated the argument that he CANT play in structure in the pocket. There are 100 examples of him doing it. He doesnt hold the ball too long as a matter of course, like Fields did. He is guilty sometimes of big play hunting. But thats not the same as being indecisive and holding the ball too long as a failure of being able to operate an offense. Fields literally CANT do this, Caleb did it dozens of times on film. Thats what i proved. You know what, I am tired of the comparisons to Fields. He's history. I want to compare his strengths/weaknesses to Mahomes, Hurt, Allen, Jackson, etc... Why not start worrying about how he will compare to the top 5 instead of a QB who is no longer on the team? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearFan PHX Posted May 4 Report Share Posted May 4 Just now, Pixote said: You know what, I am tired of the comparisons to Fields. He's history. I want to compare his strengths/weaknesses to Mahomes, Hurt, Allen, Jackson, etc... Why not start worrying about how he will compare to the top 5 instead of a QB who is no longer on the team? well, its because someone is saying Williams is having a problem that was actually Fields' problem. But you know what Im tired of? All this silly nitpicking on me. Ill write about what i want to write about, and I will call out fake media narratives when I read them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixote Posted May 4 Report Share Posted May 4 1 minute ago, BearFan PHX said: well, its because someone is saying Williams is having a problem that was actually Fields' problem. But you know what Im tired of? All this silly nitpicking on me. Ill write about what i want to write about, and I will call out fake media narratives when I read them. I'm not nitpicking on you. I'm tired of the comparisons to Fields by EVERYONE. Not just you. I can understand before he was traded. I can understand shortly after. Hell, I was kind of okay with it up until the draft. But now is the time to move on. I loved Justin Fields. I will be a fan of his for as long as he plays in the NFL, as long as it isn't against the Bears or their interests. But it is time to give it up. (And it's time for you to stop being so paranoid, thinking every negative is pointed at you.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearFan PHX Posted May 4 Report Share Posted May 4 5 minutes ago, Pixote said: I'm not nitpicking on you. I'm tired of the comparisons to Fields by EVERYONE. Not just you. I can understand before he was traded. I can understand shortly after. Hell, I was kind of okay with it up until the draft. But now is the time to move on. I loved Justin Fields. I will be a fan of his for as long as he plays in the NFL, as long as it isn't against the Bears or their interests. But it is time to give it up. (And it's time for you to stop being so paranoid, thinking every negative is pointed at you.) Its time for you to stop psychoanalyzing me. I dont think everything is pointed at me. I think you said the film sucked because you arent smart enough to understand the point i was making - what it proved. I think it's time for you to stop gaslighting me. You talk about my frame of mind and then tell my Im paranoid. LOL Dude. its enough. I didnt bring up Caleb holding the ball. I said that was an old narrative that was about Fields. Thats how it came up. If you dont understand the logic of whats being said that's on you, but your directives about what i should and shouldn't think or say are RIDICULOUS. Im done being polite about it - you do it, you hear about it, you dont do it, it doesnt come up. Simple. But if Im paranoid, then youre dumb. It goes both ways. I do have the right to disagree with the stupid media narratives. You guys read an article and then defend it like you know something. Watch the damn tape and stop being stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixote Posted May 4 Report Share Posted May 4 11 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said: Its time for you to stop psychoanalyzing me. I dont think everything is pointed at me. I think you said the film sucked because you arent smart enough to understand the point i was making - what it proved. I think it's time for you to stop gaslighting me. You talk about my frame of mind and then tell my Im paranoid. LOL Dude. its enough. I didnt bring up Caleb holding the ball. I said that was an old narrative that was about Fields. Thats how it came up. If you dont understand the logic of whats being said that's on you, but your directives about what i should and shouldn't think or say are RIDICULOUS. Im done being polite about it - you do it, you hear about it, you dont do it, it doesnt come up. Simple. But if Im paranoid, then youre dumb. It goes both ways. I do have the right to disagree with the stupid media narratives. You guys read an article and then defend it like you know something. Watch the damn tape and stop being stupid. Like I said, stop being so paranoid. I disagree with many (at one point or another or all) posters occasionally. No one has ever accused me of flaming, trolling, gaslighting, or picking on them except for you. You tell everyone they have a right to their opinions, but then insult them by telling them their opinions are stupid. But if anyone disagrees with you, holy shit, they are picking on you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearFan PHX Posted May 4 Report Share Posted May 4 8 minutes ago, Pixote said: Like I said, stop being so paranoid. I disagree with many (at one point or another or all) posters occasionally. No one has ever accused me of flaming, trolling, gaslighting, or picking on them except for you. You tell everyone they have a right to their opinions, but then insult them by telling them their opinions are stupid. But if anyone disagrees with you, holy shit, they are picking on you. nope. Its you literally calling me paranoid. Its Stinger literally saying that the reason i dont agree about Caleb holding the ball too much isnt because my point of view is different, but its because I love Caleb and hate Fields. If you want to stop being accused of personal comments, then stop making them. If you dont want to be insulted, then dont insult. It's gonna be symmetrical here. If you feel free to say Im paranoid, then i feel free to say youre dumb when you completely miss the entire point of the film that you say "sucked" Here's some advice if youre truly not understanding. If I say "Caleb is X" and you disagree, then tell my why you disagree about Caleb, about stats, about film. But when people say the REASON I think Caleb is X is because I have some psychological issue, then thats personal. Its not that its hurting my feelings. Its that its an illogcial ad homenium attack. So then i defeat that attack by pointing out that it is not factual but personal in nature. I am not a fragile flower that is weeping over being bullied. Im just saying youre not making sense, and all this personal stuff is STUPID and proves nothing. It doesnt upset me, it just makes your point invalid and "dumb" Honestly the snowflakes here are you guys. Everytime I disagree you tell me Im not "allowing" you to have an opinion LOL Then you have to tell me how mean and paranoid I am. All this to cover for when youre just wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixote Posted May 4 Report Share Posted May 4 6 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said: nope. Its you literally calling me paranoid. Its Stinger literally saying that the reason i dont agree about Caleb holding the ball too much isnt because my point of view is different, but its because I love Caleb and hate Fields. If you want to stop being accused of personal comments, then stop making them. Didn't we just have this conversation a week or two ago? You said you understood when I said I am not a person who is aggressively confrontational. We even shook hands (over the net) and agreed to move on. PHX, you can't tell people their opinions are stupid and then get upset when they disagree with you and claim they are picking on you. You can't claim people are getting personal when they disagree with you and constantly insult them because of their "stupid opinions." If you can disagree with other posters' opinions, then why does it upset you when a poster disagrees with you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearFan PHX Posted May 4 Report Share Posted May 4 3 minutes ago, Pixote said: Didn't we just have this conversation a week or two ago? You said you understood when I said I am not a person who is aggressively confrontational. We even shook hands (over the net) and agreed to move on. PHX, you can't tell people their opinions are stupid and then get upset when they disagree with you and claim they are picking on you. You can't claim people are getting personal when they disagree with you and constantly insult them because of their "stupid opinions." If you can disagree with other posters' opinions, then why does it upset you when a poster disagrees with you? I explained this already to you. 1) I called your opinions stupid AFTER you called me paranoid. Like I said, symmetry. If youre civil, Im civil, if youre not, Im just going the speed of traffic. THe tone is up to you. 2) I dont care if someone doesnt agree with my opinions, it is the personal stuff that the REASON my opinoin is wrong is because I hate Fields and love Willaims and dont broker any nuance. You can disagree with what I say all day long. Bring facts, and we will debate. When the debate is that my opinoins are wrong because I have a character flaw, that's not me starting it. You are failing to understand the difference between disagreeing with me, which is fine, and speaking about my character and thought process as the reason Im wrong. The first is FINE, the second will be returned in symmetry. If you understand that and keep doing it, then youre trolling. If you dont understand that then youre not smart. If you DO understand it and then moderate yourself doing that, then there will be no issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearFan PHX Posted May 4 Report Share Posted May 4 P.S. when we supposedly buried the hatchet the other day I offered my hand to shake, you didnt accept it. Just like you read a very nice letter I wrote to you a couple months ago trying to resolve this and you also didnt respond. So figure it out. Either you want to fight or you dont. Whichever it is, Ill join you in it. But you can stop dishing it out if you cant take it. But in either case Im not angry. My feelings arent hurt. You may just be misunderstanding my New York ness. If someone gets in my face, i dont back down. If they are polite, then me too. What generally happens is that Stinger says something personal, and I respond and then you come to his rescue and pile on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixote Posted May 4 Report Share Posted May 4 1 minute ago, BearFan PHX said: I explained this already to you. 1) I called your opinions stupid AFTER you called me paranoid. Like I said, symmetry. If youre civil, Im civil, if youre not, Im just going the speed of traffic. THe tone is up to you. 2) I dont care if someone doesnt agree with my opinions, it is the personal stuff that the REASON my opinoin is wrong is because I hate Fields and love Willaims and dont broker any nuance. You can disagree with what I say all day long. Bring facts, and we will debate. When the debate is that my opinoins are wrong because I have a character flaw, that's not me starting it. You are failing to understand the difference between disagreeing with me, which is fine, and speaking about my character and thought process as the reason Im wrong. The first is FINE, the second will be returned in symmetry. If you understand that and keep doing it, then youre trolling. If you dont understand that then youre not smart. If you DO understand it and then moderate yourself doing that, then there will be no issues. I didn't accuse you of being paranoid until after you said I was picking on you when I was not picking on you! That's paranoia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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