AZ54 Posted May 10 Report Share Posted May 10 8 hours ago, BearFan PHX said: sure, but the other (possible) side of the coin is some BS touchdowns that change the outcome of games, where the better team is edged out by a fluke kickoff. How is a team “better” if they can’t cover kick or even punt returns? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam Posted May 10 Report Share Posted May 10 12 hours ago, DABEARSDABOMB said: I think Scott will surprise us in a good way this year. How so? He seems like the 7th option on offense right now behind Moore, Allen, Odunze, Kmet, Everett, and Swift. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearFan PHX Posted May 10 Report Share Posted May 10 3 hours ago, AZ54 said: How is a team “better” if they can’t cover kick or even punt returns? because if they play superior offense and defense, but a chaotic play like a kickoff determines the outcome with an effect out of proportion to the rest of the game, then there is more chaos in the outcome and it measures the quality of the teams less. I always felt the same about surprise onside kickoffs too. Punts and kickoffs as they were, are fine, they didnt disproportionately affect game outcomes. i wonder (but do NOT know!) whether this new arrangement will end in more kickoff returns for touchdowns than the previous form did, and if it does, then I think it corrupts the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZ54 Posted May 10 Report Share Posted May 10 53 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said: because if they play superior offense and defense, but a chaotic play like a kickoff determines the outcome with an effect out of proportion to the rest of the game, then there is more chaos in the outcome and it measures the quality of the teams less. I always felt the same about surprise onside kickoffs too. Punts and kickoffs as they were, are fine, they didnt disproportionately affect game outcomes. i wonder (but do NOT know!) whether this new arrangement will end in more kickoff returns for touchdowns than the previous form did, and if it does, then I think it corrupts the game. Almost by definition there will be significantly more KR and therefore more KR TDs. It will affect the outcome of games just as Hester did for us. I like it because I'd rather not see the league beholden to the teams with the best QBs. Keep it a team sport in all phases. Poles thought enough of special teams to use a 4th Rd pick on a punter. I still enjoy watching the kicks and kick returns precisely because of that unknown factor... be it a fumble, muffed punt, big return to flip the field, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearFan PHX Posted May 10 Report Share Posted May 10 17 minutes ago, AZ54 said: Almost by definition there will be significantly more KR and therefore more KR TDs. It will affect the outcome of games just as Hester did for us. I like it because I'd rather not see the league beholden to the teams with the best QBs. Keep it a team sport in all phases. Poles thought enough of special teams to use a 4th Rd pick on a punter. I still enjoy watching the kicks and kick returns precisely because of that unknown factor... be it a fumble, muffed punt, big return to flip the field, etc. I totally disagree. Especially now that we are becoming one of the good teams who can win games without flukes and chaos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChileBear Posted May 10 Author Report Share Posted May 10 9 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said: I totally disagree. Especially now that we are becoming one of the good teams who can win games without flukes and chaos. And I totally disagree with the idea of "games without flukes and chaos." Those are integral parts of almost every game. Heck, the ball's shape implies crazy bounces and unexpected events. I actually love that part of football. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stinger226 Posted May 10 Report Share Posted May 10 33 minutes ago, AZ54 said: Almost by definition there will be significantly more KR and therefore more KR TDs. It will affect the outcome of games just as Hester did for us. I like it because I'd rather not see the league beholden to the teams with the best QBs. Keep it a team sport in all phases. Poles thought enough of special teams to use a 4th Rd pick on a punter. I still enjoy watching the kicks and kick returns precisely because of that unknown factor... be it a fumble, muffed punt, big return to flip the field, etc. Good teams always seem to have a good punter , most the time a kicker that can make pressure FGs. Since the rules have changed, special teams will require better players to play because of potential big plays. I think Poles and Flus are paying attention to that. V Jones will excel at that or be gone, not any help as a WR. Dante Pettis is back and a unspetacular but reliable punt returner that adds speed to the WR room. 4.32 He had 9 punt return TDs in his college career. Maybe we can revive his career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam Posted May 10 Report Share Posted May 10 8 minutes ago, Stinger226 said: Good teams always seem to have a good punter , most the time a kicker that can make pressure FGs. Since the rules have changed, special teams will require better players to play because of potential big plays. I think Poles and Flus are paying attention to that. V Jones will excel at that or be gone, not any help as a WR. Dante Pettis is back and a unspetacular but reliable punt returner that adds speed to the WR room. 4.32 He had 9 punt return TDs in his college career. Maybe we can revive his career. 1 net yard on punts adds almost 2 pts per game, so there is correlation between field position and outcomes. Gill was terrible and was a bottom 3 player on the 53-man roster. It sucks they had to use a 4th to get him, but they got Booker in the 5th which sort of makes up for the reach on Taylor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearFan PHX Posted May 10 Report Share Posted May 10 1 hour ago, ChileBear said: And I totally disagree with the idea of "games without flukes and chaos." Those are integral parts of almost every game. Heck, the ball's shape implies crazy bounces and unexpected events. I actually love that part of football. There is no such thing as a game without flukes and chaos - I think you misunderstood me. What Im saying is that I am not in favor of changing rules to create more chaos and flukes so that the chance of the inferior team winning increases from where its already been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChileBear Posted May 10 Author Report Share Posted May 10 10 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said: There is no such thing as a game without flukes and chaos - I think you misunderstood me. What Im saying is that I am not in favor of changing rules to create more chaos and flukes so that the chance of the inferior team winning increases from where its already been. Got it. But does the rule create flukes and chaos? I don't know anything about the new rule, so I'm asking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixote Posted May 10 Report Share Posted May 10 I don't want to watch a flag football game, a game without chaos. Everything scripted and predictable. I want on side kicks, announced and unannounced. The Statue of Liberty, the flea flicker, the end around, a double reverse, a returner like Hester electrifying the crowd, I want the unexpected because football is supposed to be chaotic by its very nature. 99% of the game is controlled chaos. The 1% of the plays that make the highlight reels, the unexpected chaos, is the cherry on top of the sundae. The new KO rules will bring the KO returns back into the game. We will no longer have to watch the ball bounce out of the end zone for a touchback. Can you imagine how we would have been deprived of the fun we had watching Hester return KOs? If he had played after the NFL screwed up the KO rules, he would have been a so-so WR and probably cut from the team. He wouldn't be inducted into the HOF. We wouldn't have the fond memories. He created chaos. We loved it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearFan PHX Posted May 10 Report Share Posted May 10 31 minutes ago, ChileBear said: Got it. But does the rule create flukes and chaos? I don't know anything about the new rule, so I'm asking. yeah I dont know either. Im saying I HOPE the new rule doesnt overshadow the rest of the game with easy points scored. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearFan PHX Posted May 10 Report Share Posted May 10 3 minutes ago, Pixote said: I don't want to watch a flag football game, a game without chaos. Everything scripted and predictable. I want on side kicks, announced and unannounced. The Statue of Liberty, the flea flicker, the end around, a double reverse, a returner like Hester electrifying the crowd, I want the unexpected because football is supposed to be chaotic by its very nature. 99% of the game is controlled chaos. The 1% of the plays that make the highlight reels, the unexpected chaos, is the cherry on top of the sundae. The new KO rules will bring the KO returns back into the game. We will no longer have to watch the ball bounce out of the end zone for a touchback. Can you imagine how we would have been deprived of the fun we had watching Hester return KOs? If he had played after the NFL screwed up the KO rules, he would have been a so-so WR and probably cut from the team. He wouldn't be inducted into the HOF. We wouldn't have the fond memories. He created chaos. We loved it. when the chaos is the result of a dominant player or performance, that would be great, but when it's just an unstable situation awarding unearned points, thats a problem to me. For example, would we like it if every sunday at 3pm, a lottery was held in NFL headquarters and the winning team got a free 14 points? So great kick returners are fantastic, but kick return rules that (maybe?) facilitate lucky touchdowns that come not from skill but just an unstable rule, then i think that corrupts the game. I love trick plays - the defense has to watch for everything - but if the new kickoff rule hampers the coverage teams, then Im not for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixote Posted May 10 Report Share Posted May 10 6 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said: For example, would we like it if every sunday at 3pm, a lottery was held in NFL headquarters and the winning team got a free 14 points? Is that a serious question? All the NFL is trying to do is to return the excitement of the KO return to the game in a fashion that will still reduce injuries from high impact tackles. Simple as that. Special teams play has been a part of the game since 1869 when the first college football game took place. Good teams excel in all three phases of the game, Defense, Offense, and Special Teams. A TD scored on a KO return, Punt return, trick play, etc... is earned through out executing the opponent. The key word is "earned." If they win because they out maneuvered the opposition, they earned the victory. No one gave it to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearFan PHX Posted May 10 Report Share Posted May 10 12 minutes ago, Pixote said: Is that a serious question? All the NFL is trying to do is to return the excitement of the KO return to the game in a fashion that will still reduce injuries from high impact tackles. Simple as that. Special teams play has been a part of the game since 1869 when the first college football game took place. Good teams excel in all three phases of the game, Defense, Offense, and Special Teams. A TD scored on a KO return, Punt return, trick play, etc... is earned through out executing the opponent. The key word is "earned." If they win because they out maneuvered the opposition, they earned the victory. No one gave it to them. Yeah, Im saying that if the result of the new rule is similar to how kickoff returns used to be then fine, but *IF* it turns out to enable a lot of cheap TDs *THEN* I will be against it. For example if we had the old kickoff rule, but just moved the kick point back to the 20, and made the coverage team only be able to walk, then returners could "earn" TDs but it would ruin the game, and make that play too important in determining outcomes. I am not predicting this will be the outcome, Im just HOPING it wont be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stinger226 Posted May 11 Report Share Posted May 11 17 hours ago, BearFan PHX said: Yeah, Im saying that if the result of the new rule is similar to how kickoff returns used to be then fine, but *IF* it turns out to enable a lot of cheap TDs *THEN* I will be against it. For example if we had the old kickoff rule, but just moved the kick point back to the 20, and made the coverage team only be able to walk, then returners could "earn" TDs but it would ruin the game, and make that play too important in determining outcomes. I am not predicting this will be the outcome, Im just HOPING it wont be. It may start with a lot of success but then teams will adapt to it. I think it could help our team because of the speed options. I think the rules changes affecting defenses so offensivbe teams run wild is the joke, they take good football players out of the game because they are agressive. Dont like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASHKUM BEAR Posted August 11 Report Share Posted August 11 On 5/9/2024 at 12:07 PM, ASHKUM BEAR said: Ian Wheeler RB/KR signing is for the new kickoff rules. Bears will need to KR specialists and Wheeler must have been ID by scouts for this purpose. All UDFA sign 3 yr deals according to this video. Wheeler showed against the Bills that he is in it. I hate to see him go but the Bears have Swift, Herbert, and Johnson. He needs to find an injury before cut downs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChileBear Posted August 11 Author Report Share Posted August 11 6 hours ago, ASHKUM BEAR said: Wheeler showed against the Bills that he is in it. I hate to see him go but the Bears have Swift, Herbert, and Johnson. He needs to find an injury before cut downs Agree. He should be back there for KR's. He would be a tough cut and I'd definitely keep him over Velus fumble Jones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stinger226 Posted August 11 Report Share Posted August 11 when Poles said it was going to be hard to make this team, he wasnt kidding. Many cuts will be picked up by other teams. From year 1 until now, huge upgrade in talent. Here is a video talking about fringe players. Brenden Bates Bill Murray are making the case to make the 53. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZ54 Posted August 12 Report Share Posted August 12 Even our discussions are largely centered on depth. No questions at starters for CB or LB. RB, WR and TE are settled until you get to 3rd or 4th on the depth chart. QB is settled. It is coming down to the trenches and really Dline is set for starters at this point. Booker looks like a solid 3rd DE which was at the top of the wishlist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearFan PHX Posted August 12 Report Share Posted August 12 1 hour ago, AZ54 said: Even our discussions are largely centered on depth. No questions at starters for CB or LB. RB, WR and TE are settled until you get to 3rd or 4th on the depth chart. QB is settled. It is coming down to the trenches and really Dline is set for starters at this point. Booker looks like a solid 3rd DE which was at the top of the wishlist. good point. it's not like other years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam Posted August 12 Report Share Posted August 12 1 hour ago, AZ54 said: Even our discussions are largely centered on depth. No questions at starters for CB or LB. RB, WR and TE are settled until you get to 3rd or 4th on the depth chart. QB is settled. It is coming down to the trenches and really Dline is set for starters at this point. Booker looks like a solid 3rd DE which was at the top of the wishlist. It feels like the top 4 of every position group is locked. The questions are RB5, TE4, WR6, DL4/5, LB5, and S5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mongo3451 Posted August 12 Report Share Posted August 12 30 minutes ago, adam said: It feels like the top 4 of every position group is locked. The questions are RB5, TE4, WR6, DL4/5, LB5, and S5. We are solid everywhere except C1, RG1 and EDGE 2. Fingers crossed on Booker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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